Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Who cares about off-road performance?  95% of EUC users are only going to use it on pavement.  

Did you read the post by the guy who already confirmed it will go 45km/h?  Doesn't that imply that the power available is sufficient?  

I don't expect it to be the most powerful wheel.  For me, the rat race to produce a wheel that will go 100km/h is completely uninteresting.  Making a safer wheel?  Very interesting to me.  

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong.  I just think when criticism about it's off-road potential is considered the top priority for the wheel, it loses perspective about the average user, as often happens in discussion here among enthusiasts.  

Do we have any statistics (I doubt it) that show 95% of EUC users only ride on pavement?

The most important test in my mind is off-road riding with steep hills. If a wheel doesn't have the power to handle that I"m not going to trust it riding fast because it'll probably cutout when there's a power surge.

I don't care about riding at 100km/h but I'd love to have a wheel that's capable of those speeds because that means it'll be very safe at the 35 to 40 kph speeds that I'll ride at.

[fryman]

22 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Who cares about off-road performance?  95% of EUC users are only going to use it on pavement.  

Did you read the post by the guy who already confirmed it will go 45km/h?  Doesn't that imply that the power available is sufficient?  

I don't expect it to be the most powerful wheel.  For me, the rat race to produce a wheel that will go 100km/h is completely uninteresting.  Making a safer wheel?  Very interesting to me.  

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong.  I just think when criticism about it's off-road potential is considered the top priority for the wheel, it loses perspective about the average user, as often happens in discussion here among enthusiasts.   

I think most folks want the performance of the wheel (distance, torque and speed) needs to match its good looks for the kind of money they are asking.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I've only briefly ridden a Ninebot before. Can you tell me what is it about E+ pedals which are so bad?

There's nothing bad about them except they are slippery when wet.  I've never had a wheel with griptape until my Tesla, and yes it does make a big difference.  I've done some off-roading on my Ninebot, and it was fine for the most part.  I wasn't going over extremely rough terrain - just some dirt trails and over some rain ruts.  The Tesla pedal grip feels like you are well planted on the wheel, but you can still shift your feet around if you need to.  The griptape is nice, but I could ride just fine without it including hopping down curbs and rough bumps.

I even bought some of those screws with the extension on top of the head for extra grip, but I never installed them as I found no need to.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, mezzanine said:

Who cares about off-road performance?  95% of EUC users are only going to use it on pavement.

Offroad performance, especially long steep uphills, is a stand-in for robust electronics and good power delivery. If a wheel can do that without dying, it can do everything else safely with good margins. So even if your outrageous 95% claim was true...

[mezzanine]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Do we have any statistics (I doubt it) that show 95% of EUC users only ride on pavement?

The most important test in my mind is off-road riding with steep hills. If a wheel doesn't have the power to handle that I"m not going to trust it riding fast because it'll probably cutout when there's a power surge.

I don't care about riding at 100km/h but I'd love to have a wheel that's capable of those speeds because that means it'll be very safe at the 35 to 40 kph speeds that I'll ride at.

I suspect you'd be surprised at how different you are from the average EUCer.  Another example is when posters like Meep are annoyed by smaller battery sizes.  I completely understand the frustration, but at the same time recognize that most users don't need the huge capacity offered by some wheels.  Even if you just go on the french forum, you'll get a much different sample of users, almost all urban users, compared to here.  

It would be nice to have some statistics on types of usage, but it's possible to get a general idea just from looking at this board and the french forum.  Maybe it would make for a good poll?  I'm guessing most EUC manufacturers already have this market research.  

I agree about the importance of the steep hill test.  I just don't agree about the importance of off-road.  

 

 

[novazeus]

i may have to try this on some pedals.

 

[Kael]

19 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

I suspect you'd be surprised at how different you are from the average EUCer.  Another example is when posters like Meep are annoyed by smaller battery sizes.  I completely understand the frustration, but at the same time recognize that most users don't need the huge capacity offered by some wheels.  Even if you just go on the french forum, you'll get a much different sample of users, almost all urban users, compared to here.  

It would be nice to have some statistics on types of usage, but it's possible to get a general idea just from looking at this board and the french forum.  Maybe it would make for a good poll?  I'm guessing most EUC manufacturers already have this market research.  

I agree about the importance of the steep hill test.  I just don't agree about the importance of off-road.  

 

 

The Z series was literally marketed as an off-road wheel since the beginning, so evidently Ninebot does.  Riding on roads is okay as a transport mechanism and for tricks I guess, but most of the fun on unicycles is to be had off-road. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I think a good wheel for my use would be multi-purpose in that it should ride well on asphalt but can be taken off-road if need be.  I would say a ten speed bike wouldn't be as appealing as a mountain bike, but I wouldn't want to ride a fat wheel bike all the time.  With this Ninebot Z, if the fat wheel can be as nimble as a mountain bike then sure why not?  It's all electric so as long as the performance numbers are there I think it will appeal to a wide range of riders.  It's always good to have options.  This wheel might not be for everyone, but there will be that segment that will want it.  I think a big problem with releasing wheel specifications too early with a long development stage is that other companies tend to come up with higher performing wheels in the meantime without all the marketing foreplay.  

Ninebot's like that sexy Christian girlfriend that shows a tiny bit of skin  but makes you wait until the wedding night whereas Gotway is like that slutty call girl that says you paid for it, here you go, have at it.  

It would be good to see a survey regarding people's riding expectations in terms of urban versus off-road and medium versus long range needs.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[mezzanine]

12 minutes ago, Kael said:

The Z series was literally marketed as an off-road wheel since the beginning, so evidently Ninebot does.  Riding on roads is okay as a transport mechanism and for tricks I guess, but most of the fun on unicycles is to be had off-road. 

I never knew that the Z series was marketed as an off-road EUC.  Guess I'm wrong about the intended market and the # of users who are looking for off-road EUCs.  

I'm still feeling lucky that the Z10 looks like it's passing my own tests so far.  Hopefully all you off-roaders are disappointed in it and it drives the market down so I can afford one.  

[Kael]

We’ll see. I have a healthy level of skepticism. It’ll either be not powerful enough, too expensive or have bad handling, but it just depends what combination of those. 

[houseofjob]

+1 for could care less about off-roading on EUCs (I'd rather dirt bike or ATV for that), but I don't mind all those crazy Cali people stress testing wheels for us city peoples' benefit! ??

 

So this forum complains about how Chinese EUC manufacturers are bad at marketing, but now all of a sudden buy into the Ninebot Z as good marketing? (another Chinese EUC company mind you).... Interesting...

 

And let's see where all the boo-birds are in a year's time about 4" being too wide. Remember, 2-3 years ago, much of this forum was chanting the same zombie mantra that 18" x 2.5" was much too big and unwieldy to navigate..... not to mention still no one in these arguments bring up the Z has a curved surface, not flat, and will not regularly maintain the full constant 4.1" surface contact unless you weigh a metric ton.

[mezzanine]

6 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

+1 for could care less about off-roading on EUCs (I'd rather dirt bike or ATV for that), but I don't mind all those crazy Cali people stress testing wheels for us city peoples' benefit! ??

 

So this forum complains about how Chinese EUC manufacturers are bad at marketing, but now all of a sudden buy into the Ninebot Z as good marketing? (another Chinese EUC company mind you).... Interesting...

 

And let's see where all the boo-birds are in a year's time about 4" being too wide. Remember, 2-3 years ago, much of this forum was chanting the same zombie mantra that 18" x 2.5" was much too big and unwieldy to navigate..... not to mention still no one in these arguments bring up the Z has a curved surface, not flat, and will not regularly maintain the full constant 4.1" surface contact unless you weigh a metric ton.

Yeah, I figure it's the best of both worlds to have you and Marty testing out wheels.  Both of you have more experience with a variety of wheels than most.  

I'm always surprised how little attention gets paid to the tubeless design of the Z series in these discussions.  It's always all about the wide tire, but the tubeless aspect rarely gets mentioned.  Being able to ride with lower pressure is as close to shock absorbers as we're likely to get in the next couple of years.  

[houseofjob]

14 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

I'm always surprised how little attention gets paid to the tubeless design of the Z series in these discussions.  It's always all about the wide tire, but the tubeless aspect rarely gets mentioned.  Being able to ride with lower pressure is as close to shock absorbers as we're likely to get in the next couple of years.  

Not surprising at all here.

It was the same negativity being repeated blindly towards 18" x 2.5" tire size being "too big" 2-3 years ago, and now I'd guess approx. 25-35% of this forum own an EUC with that tire size or larger.

Edited April 30, 2018 by houseofjob

[houseofjob]

So this is what a hard-to-turn, hard-to-maneuver Z looks like LOL ???

 

And a normal city [ramp] uphill on the Z ?

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by houseofjob

[Esash]

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I think a good wheel for my use would be multi-purpose in that it should ride well on asphalt but can be taken off-road if need be.  I would say a ten speed bike wouldn't be as appealing as a mountain bike, but I wouldn't want to ride a fat wheel bike all the time.  With this Ninebot Z, if the fat wheel can be as nimble as a mountain bike then sure why not?  It's all electric so as long as the performance numbers are there I think it will appeal to a wide range of riders.  It's always good to have options.  This wheel might not be for everyone, but there will be that segment that will want it.  I think a big problem with releasing wheel specifications too early with a long development stage is that other companies tend to come up with higher performing wheels in the meantime without all the marketing foreplay.  

Ninebot's like that sexy Christian girlfriend that shows a tiny bit of skin  but makes you wait until the wedding night whereas Gotway is like that slutty call girl that says you paid for it, here you go, have at it.  

It would be good to see a survey regarding people's riding expectations in terms of urban versus off-road and medium versus long range needs.

I suspect the Z10 is the big girl who has more cushion for the pushin'. She only wants to do missionary because she's too lethargic and doesn't have the flexibility. Fun for a while but you end up only calling her when the more exciting girls are unavailable or break your heart. 

 ?

[houseofjob]

14 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

I suspect the Z10 is the big girl who has more cushion for the pushin'. She only wants to do missionary because she's too lethargic and doesn't have the flexibility. Fun for a while but you end up only calling her when the more exciting girls are unavailable or break your heart.

Edited April 30, 2018 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, mezzanine said:

I suspect you'd be surprised at how different you are from the average EUCer.  Another example is when posters like Meep are annoyed by smaller battery sizes.  I completely understand the frustration, but at the same time recognize that most users don't need the huge capacity offered by some wheels.  Even if you just go on the french forum, you'll get a much different sample of users, almost all urban users, compared to here.  

It would be nice to have some statistics on types of usage, but it's possible to get a general idea just from looking at this board and the french forum.  Maybe it would make for a good poll?  I'm guessing most EUC manufacturers already have this market research.  

I agree about the importance of the steep hill test.  I just don't agree about the importance of off-road.  

 

 

Since Gotway makes the 1600wh ACM and MSuper there must be a good market for people who like large batteries. And lets not forget that KS18S, and how about KS stuffing 840wh in the KS14S.

I think many people prefer large capacity wheels. Not all (95% in your words), but a non-insignificant percentage.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

30 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

I suspect the Z10 is the big girl who has more cushion for the pushin'. She only wants to do missionary because she's too lethargic and doesn't have the flexibility. Fun for a while but you end up only calling her when the more exciting girls are unavailable or break your heart. 

 ?

  Ar are we still talking about marketing teasers making people wait?  I I forgot what we're talking about all of a sudden...

Edited April 30, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[mezzanine]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Since Gotway makes the 1600wh ACM and MSuper there must be a good market for people who like large batteries. And lets not forget that KS18S, and how about KS stuffing 840wh in the KS14S.

I think many people prefer large capacity wheels. Not all (95% in your words), but a non-insignificant percentage.

Was referring to off-road users with the 95% comment, not users desiring a large battery.  Appears I was wrong about the popularity of EUCs for off-roading, though.  Definitely surprised to learn that the Z series is being marketed primarily as an off-road EUC.  I guess that's the most extreme condition possible, and would make marketing sense.  

[US69]

21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Since Gotway makes the 1600wh ACM and MSuper there must be a good market for people who like large batteries. And lets not forget that KS18S, and how about KS stuffing 840wh in the KS14S.

I think many people prefer large capacity wheels. Not all (95% in your words), but a non-insignificant percentage.

Another argument might be that a 84Volt 1600wh wheel  is able to provide over 5000Watt power...or a 100V monster with 6000Watt....

While a 995wh 58,8Volt wheel has its max power output at 3500Watt....

Not to talk about even smaller batterys. So i would guess yeah, as long as the people want powerfull wheels....big batterys are needed and welcome ?

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by US69

[Esash]

19 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Was referring to off-road users with the 95% comment, not users desiring a large battery.  Appears I was wrong about the popularity of EUCs for off-roading, though.  Definitely surprised to learn that the Z series is being marketed primarily as an off-road EUC.  I guess that's the most extreme condition possible, and would make marketing sense.  

Recall that the whole Sport Utility Vehicle craze was fueled primarily by soccer moms and other suburban/urban types who rarely if ever took their Land Rovers offroad.  The Ninebot Z's rugged offroad looks will appeal as much to street riders as offroad enthusiasts. 

I have a strange bias against the Ninebot Z for some reason. I used to hate SUVs too, especially the Cadillac Escalade-type luxury SUVs that seemed like they were fake tough.

But I think the Z could be wildly popular, and offroad riding will have little to do with that.

We EUC riders already face a quiet stigma (real or perceived) that we're just riding nerd-mobiles. Just look at the other thread where people were trying to come up with a tougher name for our toys than "electric unicycle".

Having a big fat tire gives the Z a somewhat different look. 

 

 

[Esash]

6 Reasons We Can't Get Enough of Fat Biking

 

SUPER-WIDE TIRES ARE HERE TO STAY. HERE'S WHY IT'S TIME TO GET FAT.

https://www.bicycling.com/rides/a20025003/6-reasons-we-cant-get-enough-of-fat-biking/

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Was referring to off-road users with the 95% comment, not users desiring a large battery.

Dunno about 95 (what a good year!) but FWIW, this forum is not an end-all-be-all of all EUC riders worldwide. Many riders are either on Facebook, or basically stay away from social media.

 

2 minutes ago, mezzanine said:

Was referring to off-road users with the 95% comment, not users desiring a large battery.  Appears I was wrong about the popularity of EUCs for off-roading, though.  Definitely surprised to learn that the Z series is being marketed primarily as an off-road EUC.  I guess that's the most extreme condition possible, and would make marketing sense.  

IMHO the offroading promo is more about cool brand imaging than it is about ACTual offroading capability.

Outside-looking-in, the Z is a redemption project (from the P debacle) by the minority faction OG Ninebot team to prove their worth within the seemingly post-merger dichotomy of Ninebot-Segway (again, the vibe at CES 2018 I got from the mainly caucasian OG Segway team / faction was that they could give 2 ?'s about the Ninebot one-wheeled properties). Remember also that the old spec, re-packaged S1/S2, targeting city-dwelling newbies, was a mild success, at best.

Hence, they need to sell product, they need to sell the Z.

What sells to the 40-60YO male EUC demo sweetspot? Guys offroading in dirt bike gear could do the trick!

Anyone recall all those extreme off-roading, mountain climbing SUV commercials from the 90's-00's. Most SUV owners ended up just riding on regular suburban and city pavement. And many of those SUV's ended up not being such amazing mountain climbers anyways.

[mezzanine]

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Dunno about 95 (what a good year!) but FWIW, this forum is not an end-all-be-all of all EUC riders worldwide. Many riders are either on Facebook, or basically stay away from social media.

 

IMHO the offroading promo is more about cool brand imaging than it is about ACTual offroading capability.

Outside-looking-in, the Z is a redemption project (from the P debacle) by the minority faction OG Ninebot team to prove their worth within the seemingly post-merger dichotomy of Ninebot-Segway (again, the vibe at CES 2018 I got from the mainly caucasian OG Segway team / faction was that they could give 2 ?'s about the Ninebot one-wheeled properties). Remember also that the old spec, re-packaged S1/S2, targeting city-dwelling newbies, was a mild success, at best.

Hence, they need to sell product, they need to sell the Z.

What sells to the 40-60YO male EUC demo sweetspot? Guys offroading in dirt bike gear could do the trick!

Anyone recall all those extreme off-roading, mountain climbing SUV commercials from the 90's-00's. Most SUV owners ended up just riding on regular suburban and city pavement. And many of those SUV's ended up not being such amazing mountain climbers anyways.

Yeah, I suspect you're right about Ninebot's off-roading promotion being more about marketing than anything else.  That said, reading the fat-tire bike article that was posted, it seems the lower tire pressure is advantageous for sand and snow, so maybe there's something to the off-road thing. 

I'd bump the target EUC demographic down to 25-50, but this is all guess work.  It would be interesting to get some real data on this stuff.  The statistics provided by Ecodrift and Jason has been invaluable as a source of information about failure rates for different wheels.  

I haven't followed the development of the Z, but I find it all endlessly fascinating and often lament that we can't invest in these companies (especially when rumours of a KS18L delay surfaced due to financing issues).  There are trade-offs to the Ninebot model compared to some of the leaner operations, and I often wonder whether there's an appreciation for those differences when it seems like the only thing folks who post online from North America care about is power/speed.  I doubt if one of the smaller companies would have pioneered something as different as the Z because of the R&D.  

 

 

Edited May 1, 2018 by mezzanine

[houseofjob]

@mezzanine 99.9% sure key demo currently for EUC doesn’t start below 40YO. Not saying there aren’t customers below 40 (I am one of them) but this is who is buying the most EUCs right now, most disposable income. This can obviously shift with change in popularity, influx of younger newbies.