Ninebot One Z : Z6-Z8-Z10

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

My plan, and I think it's a very good one, is to not be the first one to buy one. Until I hear from actual customers, I don't give a damn about this wheel. 

The fact that you're in this thread must mean that you care at least a tiny tiny bit 

I am a bit nervous about my expectations because I don't want to buy a dud, but I'm feeling better knowing that I'll be able to ride one a good deal before buying it. I know this helps me and is of little value to others that can't do the same 

[Adel]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I am a bit nervous about my expectations because I don't want to buy a dud, but I'm feeling better knowing that I'll be able to ride one a good deal before buying it. I know this helps me and is of little value to others that can't do the same 

What do you mean @Marty Backe ? You're not going to give full review and report of the Z10 once you get to test the prototype ? 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Adel

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, Adel said:

What do you mean @Marty Backe ? You're not going to give full review and report of the Z10 once you get to test the prototype 

I sense a 4k HDR suround sound OLED optimized video in the brewing....

[kasenutty]

38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The fact that you're in this thread must mean that you care at least a tiny tiny bit 

I am a bit nervous about my expectations because I don't want to buy a dud, but I'm feeling better knowing that I'll be able to ride one a good deal before buying it. I know this helps me and is of little value to others that can't do the same 

 

 

Hehe you’re right, I’m open to caring, if it’s good

[Scatcat]

2 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

 

 

Hehe you’re right, I’m open to caring, if it’s good

I await @Marty Backe's verdict with trepidation. 

[Jason McNeil]

5 hours ago, Adel said:

@Jason McNeil, what exactly does this mean. Is the Z10  going to be locked to certain speeds based on country. Also, what about nominal power, we've seen it advertised at 800w nominal. 

Is the 1800w nominal power or max power number ?

Confusion is that there have been three separate definitions of motor power: 

• Earliest: pre-IM Solowheel, old IPS, & Airwheel used the battery Amp x Volts x Cells = Our Wheel is '"nnnnW", obsolete & not entirely honest, no vendor can get away with this anymore.
• Peak, Typical: the motor manufacturer's peak <5min power measurement. According to a source who has run dyno tests on the current state-of-the-art class motor, there is no way you can sustain 2000W of power through an enclosed hub motor without permanent damage to it, eventually. Heat dissipation from an enclosed metal hotplate is not terribly great, with a wedge of poor thermal conducting rubber in contact with the road surface; the temperature gradient is going to build until something fails.
• 9B1 Z Measurement: don't quite understand why Ninebot deliberately choose to muddy the watters with the Z by adding this other figure. From what I've been told—and I could be wrong, once we have this machine in our possession it will be plainly apparent what the true situation is—this is what the motor can output indefinitely, with a normal 25°C ambient. 

In the context of daily/realistic power requirements, cruising at 25MPH is only going to burn through 500W avg of power. Will it live another day after  the Mount Backe^TM torture testing cycle? Only time will tell! 

Summary: all things being equal, 9B claims that the Z10 will be on a power parity with Tesla, KS18L, V10F... 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Jason McNeil

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Confusion is that there have been three separate definitions of motor power: 

• Earliest: pre-IM Solowheel, old IPS, & Airwheel used the battery Amp x Volts x Cells = Our Wheel is '"nnnnW", obsolete & not entirely honest, no vendor can get away with this anymore.
• Peak, Typical: the motor manufacturer's peak <5min power measurement. According to a source who has run dyno tests on the current state-of-the-art class motor, there is no way you can sustain 2000W of power through an enclosed hub motor without permanent damage to it, eventually. Heat dissipation from an enclosed metal hotplate is not terribly great, with a wedge of poor thermal conducting rubber in contact with the road surface; the temperature gradient is going to build until something fails.
• 9B1 Z Measurement: don't quite understand why Ninebot deliberately choose to muddy the watters with the Z by adding this other figure. From what I've been told—and I could be wrong, once we have this machine in our possession it will be plainly apparent what the true situation is—this is what the motor can output indefinitely, with a normal 25°C ambient. 

In the context of daily/realistic power requirements, cruising at 25MPH is only going to burn through 400W avg of power. Will it live another day after the the Mount Backe^TM torture testing cycle? Only time will tell! 

Summary: all things being equal, 9B claims that the Z10 will be on a power parity with Tesla, KS18L, V10F... 

  I'm feeling better now

[yourtoys7]

So much back and forth with this wheel its ridiculous, but it shows one thing, Ninebot is capable of producing one of the best looking wheels and (possibly) one of the better wheels. Time will tell... Im just gonna wait a little longer.

[EUCMania]

2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Confusion is that there have been three separate definitions of motor power: 

• Earliest: pre-IM Solowheel, old IPS, & Airwheel used the battery Amp x Volts x Cells = Our Wheel is '"nnnnW", obsolete & not entirely honest, no vendor can get away with this anymore.
• Peak, Typical: the motor manufacturer's peak <5min power measurement. According to a source who has run dyno tests on the current state-of-the-art class motor, there is no way you can sustain 2000W of power through an enclosed hub motor without permanent damage to it, eventually. Heat dissipation from an enclosed metal hotplate is not terribly great, with a wedge of poor thermal conducting rubber in contact with the road surface; the temperature gradient is going to build until something fails.
• 9B1 Z Measurement: don't quite understand why Ninebot deliberately choose to muddy the watters with the Z by adding this other figure. From what I've been told—and I could be wrong, once we have this machine in our possession it will be plainly apparent what the true situation is—this is what the motor can output indefinitely, with a normal 25°C ambient. 

In the context of daily/realistic power requirements, cruising at 25MPH is only going to burn through 500W avg of power. Will it live another day after  the Mount Backe^TM torture testing cycle? Only time will tell! 

Summary: all things being equal, 9B claims that the Z10 will be on a power parity with Tesla, KS18L, V10F... 

4

I agree with the assessment that current models cannot possibly have 2000W nominal power. For example V10, if it was true that V10's nominal power is 2000W, then, it can generate, indefinitely,  266N of push force at the speed 24km/hr, assuming its cut-off speed is 48km/hr. This force is enough to push 100kg=220lb  of weight up a 15 degree slope indefinitely at 24km/hr. Can v10 do that? 

[Esash]

19 minutes ago, EUCMania said:

I agree with the assessment that current models cannot possibly have 2000W nominal power. For example V10, if it was true that V10's nominal power is 2000W, then, it can generate, indefinitely,  266N of push force at the speed 24km/hr, assuming its cut-off speed is 48km/hr. This force is enough to push 100kg=220lb  of weight up a 15 degree slope indefinitely at 24km/hr. Can v10 do that? 

The V10 could probably push 220lbs up 15 degree slope longer than any other 2000 watt rated wheel, but your point stands.

 

[Scatcat]

10 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Confusion is that there have been three separate definitions of motor power: 

• Earliest: pre-IM Solowheel, old IPS, & Airwheel used the battery Amp x Volts x Cells = Our Wheel is '"nnnnW", obsolete & not entirely honest, no vendor can get away with this anymore.
• Peak, Typical: the motor manufacturer's peak <5min power measurement. According to a source who has run dyno tests on the current state-of-the-art class motor, there is no way you can sustain 2000W of power through an enclosed hub motor without permanent damage to it, eventually. Heat dissipation from an enclosed metal hotplate is not terribly great, with a wedge of poor thermal conducting rubber in contact with the road surface; the temperature gradient is going to build until something fails.
• 9B1 Z Measurement: don't quite understand why Ninebot deliberately choose to muddy the watters with the Z by adding this other figure. From what I've been told—and I could be wrong, once we have this machine in our possession it will be plainly apparent what the true situation is—this is what the motor can output indefinitely, with a normal 25°C ambient. 

In the context of daily/realistic power requirements, cruising at 25MPH is only going to burn through 500W avg of power. Will it live another day after  the Mount Backe^TM torture testing cycle? Only time will tell! 

Summary: all things being equal, 9B claims that the Z10 will be on a power parity with Tesla, KS18L, V10F... 

That makes sense, and is probably something the other manufacturers should switch to. It would ease a lot of legality issues without actually nerfing the motors.

I've always wondered how in all h*ll a brushless motor with a biiiiiig stator whose only connection to the outside is the bloody shaft could sustain that kind of power continuously...

[RoberAce]

TERRORIFIC!!! 1800W 45kmh but Is Limited to 30kmh

[Chriull]

10 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Confusion is that there have been three separate definitions of motor power: 

• Earliest: pre-IM Solowheel, old IPS, & Airwheel used the battery Amp x Volts x Cells = Our Wheel is '"nnnnW", obsolete & not entirely honest, no vendor can get away with this anymore.
• Peak, Typical: the motor manufacturer's peak <5min power measurement. According to a source who has run dyno tests on the current state-of-the-art class motor, there is no way you can sustain 2000W of power through an enclosed hub motor without permanent damage to it, eventually. Heat dissipation from an enclosed metal hotplate is not terribly great, with a wedge of poor thermal conducting rubber in contact with the road surface; the temperature gradient is going to build until something fails.
• 9B1 Z Measurement: don't quite understand why Ninebot deliberately choose to muddy the watters with the Z by adding this other figure. From what I've been told—and I could be wrong, once we have this machine in our possession it will be plainly apparent what the true situation is—this is what the motor can output indefinitely, with a normal 25°C ambient. 

In the context of daily/realistic power requirements, cruising at 25MPH is only going to burn through 500W avg of power. Will it live another day after  the Mount Backe^TM torture testing cycle? Only time will tell! 

Summary: all things being equal, 9B claims that the Z10 will be on a power parity with Tesla, KS18L, V10F... 

Reminds me a bit on the "old" days when i rode motorcycles - they used to announce the power in very different ways (shaft, back axle and rear tire). Additionally there were somehow japanese and german HP... Although all of this should have been regulated and standartized...

8 hours ago, EUCMania said:

I agree with the assessment that current models cannot possibly have 2000W nominal power. For example V10, if it was true that V10's nominal power is 2000W, then, it can generate, indefinitely,  266N of push force at the speed 24km/hr, assuming its cut-off speed is 48km/hr. This force is enough to push 100kg=220lb  of weight up a 15 degree slope indefinitely at 24km/hr. Can v10 do that? 

Great - it seems we use about the same formulas

But this is already the real output power from the tire onto the road. The V10 is "limited" by the 30A fuse to a max of 84*30=2520W "system" input power down to 20 cells * 3V * 30A = 1800W for empty batteries. So in average 2160W. Additionally they should have left some headroom for the fuse, so it can not introduce an additional hazard.

From "Evaluation of a BLDC drive line and energy analysis for an electric Ultra Light Vehicle Figure 32" (http://publications.lib.chalmers.se/records/fulltext/163436.pdf) the efficiency from battery to motor output is somewhere arount 60%. So real output power available for the V10 should be something around 1,2kW (1,5kW for full batteries) leading to an about 10-11 degree incline at 24 km/h.

Maybe for very short bursts (with a very slow fuse) the "real peak" output power could be above this 1,2/1,5kW.

But @EcoDrift's rig tests from October 2016 showed ~2,2kW peak Power for the V8 and 2,7kW peak Power for a modified V8 (stronger li ion cells). The modified V8 also blew the fuse of the V8... Strongest Wheel tested was the 18" Gotway Msuper V3+ with ~4,6kW. peak output power. For 16" were with 2,2kw for KS16B and V8 and 2,3kW for ACM quite evenly ditributed.

Unfortionately @EcoDrift does not make dyno rig tests anymore (he wrote something like not possible anymore with new KS and GW having too much power anyways...)

Could easily be that the accuracy of these mearurements was not the highest - but still leaves a huge factor between the ~2,7kW which blew the fuse on the V8 to this theoratical ~1,5kW. I'd assume some mixture of a bit higher efficiency of EUC's, a bit to high values from @EcoDrift's tests and very slow fuses could somehow put the picture together?

 

37 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

That makes sense, and is probably something the other manufacturers should switch to. It would ease a lot of legality issues without actually nerfing the motors.

I've always wondered how in all h*ll a brushless motor with a biiiiiig stator whose only connection to the outside is the bloody shaft could sustain that kind of power continuously...

Imho the moving air while driving is the key element in cooling - my former KS16B started overheat alarm beeping immedeately once i slowed down to turn around after some inclines on an already more shallow part. My Brothers KS16B started beeping a little bit later, once we both stopped (he has some kg less).

This overheat alarm comes from the temperature measurement somewhere on the motherboard, but imo the same should be true for the motor itself - with the metal shell moving within the air and getting the airflow from driving.

So point 3 from @Jason McNeil's list (9B1 Z Measurement) should lead to very different values if one measures at a dyno rig or really drives the wheel.

[RoberAce]

our fears come true, the wheel is limited

[Scatcat]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

Imho the moving air while driving is the key element in cooling - my former KS16B started overheat alarm beeping immedeately once i slowed down to turn around after some inclines on an already more shallow part. My Brothers KS16B started beeping a little bit later, once we both stopped (he has some kg less).

This overheat alarm comes from the temperature measurement somewhere on the motherboard, but imo the same should be true for the motor itself - with the metal shell moving within the air and getting the airflow from driving.

So point 3 from @Jason McNeil's list (9B1 Z Measurement) should lead to very different values if one measures at a dyno rig or really drives the wheel.

Yes, the moving air is the key of course. But as one that have taken apart a EUC-motor, I can say that the provisions for actually moving air inside the motor is very lacking. The inner stator with the coils is built like a typical wheel with a hub, spokes and then the coil rim, while the outer part is basically two smooth discs connecting to the magnet rim along the perimeter and the shaft bearings in the middle. The coils are probably the main heat-generators, and they are mostly static (except for the vibrations/whine). The airflow around the coils then depend on a smooth metal disc, and the spokes leading to the shaft and eventually into the open air.

As a heat regulator, that system seems really lackluster. What would make a difference, would be a finned inside of the side discs. Preferably with an almost centrifugal compressor-like layout forcing the air to circulate. Then the enclosure would become hotter, while the coils would become cooler - misson accomplished.

But such a redesign would probably up the price of those parts by at least the double, making the motors a bit more expensive to make and to buy.

[Chriull]

13 minutes ago, Scatcat said:

As a heat regulator, that system seems really lackluster. What would make a difference, would be a finned inside of the side discs. Preferably with an almost centrifugal compressor-like layout forcing the air to circulate. Then the enclosure would become hotter, while the coils would become cooler - misson accomplished.

But such a redesign would probably up the price of those parts by at least the double, making the motors a bit more expensive to make and to buy.

And use of bigger diameter bearings, so a static inner circle can be established acting as heatsink for the coils and perfect mount for the pedals - no more weak axles, beautiful thick wiring,...

Maybe again some metal frame in the middle of the upper shell for improved stability/?endurability? and also reused as heatsink for the mosfets...

There are still uncoubtable improvment posdibilities...

[RoberAce]

But what good is all that if you limit it to 30Kmh?

[Marty Backe]

Just now, RoberAce said:

But what good is all that if you limit it to 30Kmh?

It's not limited to 30-kph everywhere. Depends on who you buy it from.

[RoberAce]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's not limited to 30-kph everywhere. Depends on who you buy it from.

Country seller? the GPS unit localization? Where is activate? limited by hardware? by firmware? 

Edited April 26, 2018 by RoberAce

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, RoberAce said:

Country seller? the GPS unit localization? Where is activate? limited by hardware? by firmware? 

I'm just reading from your post above. The seller is saying that they are asking Ninebot to limit the speed to 30-kph. Different sellers, different max-speeds.

[RoberAce]

this policy is disgusting

[RoberAce]

Who is going to want a wheel with the price of high performance, which weighs a ton, to go to pedestrian speed?

it has no sense

[RoberAce]

nobody is going to want a wheel from a seller like that

[Adel]

This video above shows clear difference of pedal height between v10f and Z10. Go to the 1 minute mark on the video towards the end to see for yourself.

[RoberAce]

Just now, Adel said:

This video above shows clear difference of pedal height between v10f and Z10. Go to the 1 minute mark on the video towards the end to see for yourself.

confirmed, it is limited