Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[jimjam.nyc]

3 hours ago, EUCzero said:

The suspension on Begode can easily be modified and improved by the user. Leaperkim not. So if both have problems, with one is best for the customer? The one you can fix and improve or the one you can not. I prefer it just working out of the box, but at the moment.... NONE have proven to do so.

I will give it to you that you cant replace the Fastace shocks as of now with any 3rd party. But these shocks are actually pretty easy to maintain and work on. I would even go out there and say you can probably find springs to replace if you wanted.

4 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

The patton doesnt have a smart bms

I will admit smart BMS was one of those things I wanted to see on all wheels, but saying that... I have not seen the benefit yet with the v13 or the s22 that their "smart" BMS brings. I get the ability to obsess over individual cell voltages.. just not sure what the benefit is, especially if you notice something off there really isnt anything you can do about it other than replace the battery or get it serviced. It may reduce things like fires, but as we saw the s20 went up in flames anyway.. So not even sure if preventing fires is really a thing at all related to smart BMS (On Eucs atleast)

[Rawnei]

13 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I will give it to you that you cant replace the Fastace shocks as of now with any 3rd party. But these shocks are actually pretty easy to maintain and work on. I would even go out there and say you can probably find springs to replace if you wanted.

I will admit smart BMS was one of those things I wanted to see on all wheels, but saying that... I have not seen the benefit yet with the v13 or the s22 that their "smart" BMS brings. I get the ability to obsess over individual cell voltages.. just not sure what the benefit is, especially if you notice something off there really isnt anything you can do about it other than replace the battery or get it serviced. It may reduce things like fires, but as we saw the s20 went up in flames anyway.. So not even sure if preventing fires is really a thing at all related to smart BMS (On Eucs atleast)

The one thing with Smart BMS is being able to monitor individual cell voltage which is very nice, but so far there's no confirmation if Extreme has this or if it's just a black box that they call smart.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I would even go out there and say you can probably find springs to replace if you wanted.

The thing is, you will likely never need to replace a spring as they don't wear and I doubt would ever break. That said, I would suspect that the service parts (oil seals etc) could be found but for how long? Crucially, if the stanchions and/or sliders wear you could have a problem especially once the wheel is unsupported. The point is, with the Begode system the assembly can be kept running even without manufacturer support. Thats a big bonus for many people. I would wager even the vertical sliding parts could be maintained - the stanchions could be re-chromed and the sliders could be re-bored/sleeved. It's almost like the lower quality tolerances in the Begodes could actually assist long term maintenance. The tight tolerances used in the MTB style forks of the SS for example mean that they are pretty much unserviceable other than seal replacement. Once the stanchions/slider bushings have worn they are pretty much for the bin and you would need a complete replacement from FastAce, praying they are still available of course.

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I will admit smart BMS was one of those things I wanted to see on all wheels, but saying that... I have not seen the benefit yet with the v13 or the s22 that their "smart" BMS brings. I get the ability to obsess over individual cell voltages..

Not being pedantic but Smart BMS's don't monitor individual cells, they monitor strings. Most strings will have at least 3 cells hanging off them, sometimes 5. And you're right, some do obsess over the voltages and yes it doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things but it can certainly give you a heads up that things aren't right before a pack grenades.

The S20 going up in flames was for sure unexpected but you're not going to get any wheel, Smart BMS or not, that doesn't fail catastrophically every now and then. A smart BMS doesn't make a battery pack impervious to serious problems, it just reduces them.

[Rollin-on-1]

25 minutes ago, Planemo said:

The thing is, you will likely never need to replace a spring

The purpose for replacing the spring would be to match the spring rate to the rider's weight and use case.  58, 62, and 66 may be decent for a wide range of riders, but these will only be a great match for a much smaller number of riders.  I am curious to see how a progressive spring would perform.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

That said, I would suspect that the service parts (oil seals etc) could be found but for how long? Crucially, if the stanchions and/or sliders wear you could have a problem especially once the wheel is unsupported.

The oil seals and wipers are standard 37mm ones, there's plenty of brands, oil is standard fork oil.

I think people are inventing why Fastace suspension is troublesome to maintain, they are not, just some QC issues that lead to oil leakage.

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, EUCzero said:

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I take it you didn't see all the Begode suspension issues or just choose to ignore it. 😅

The suspension on Begode can easily be modified and improved by the user. Leaperkim not. So if both have problems, with one is best for the customer? The one you can fix and improve or the one you can not. I prefer it just working out of the box, but at the moment.... NONE have proven to do so. 

Some have bad linkage, some bad shock, some bad sliders. Some more than one..... but NONE have done it good so far. Sure Leaperkim have the suspension with the best "feel" to it. But brackets are failing as well as oil leakage on way to many

You do realize @Rawnei has ownership experiences with both a Begode suspension wheel, and a Veteran suspension wheel. According to your profile, you haven't own a Veteran suspension wheel yet. 

Are you a tech at a dealer/distributors. If not, what are your sources? Can you provide the links to the Veteran suspension failures, since I don't see the numbers that you are implying, online.

The stock air shock and linkage that came with your Master, are you happy with them, or have you replace them already with third party parts?

Are you happy with the slider on your Master? Kevin @ Alienrides publicly stated it was a nightmare for him to mix and match from different units out of the box to minimize the slop and binding stiction, due to gross dimensional inaccuracies. 

There is no third party suspension struts for the Sherman-S because there just isn't a demand for them. Owners have continually reporting how well the suspension works.

In contrast, initially, there were no third party linkage for the Master. That came about because that linkage was so poorly designed. So demand for a better linkage arose, and third party linkages started to appear.

I have spoken to local Sherman-S owners, and read the threads online. Sherman-S owners are praising the Sherman-S suspension. Whereas, the owners of the Master were in disappointment with the suspension for the same batch history. (Edit: It has been pointed out to me that there are folks who have no prior suspension experience may still be happy with their Master's suspension.) The the underlying linkage design issue is still there. The suspension can only use a fraction of the available stroke of the shock. 

Until the Extreme get sorted out, for big jumps and drops, people usually turn to the S22/Pro. For those who attempt to do the big stuff, it would not be surprising if their wheels get trashed on a non-S22 wheel.

Furthermore, Leaper Kim has already addressed the early batch suspension issues, for the most part. Even though the Master has been out longer than the Sherman-S, the stock slider and damper are still underwhelming, not on par with what are already on the Sherman-S.

It appears somebody may have too much Begode cool-aid to drink.

Edited June 21, 2023 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

32 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Whereas, the owners of the Master were in disappointment with the suspension for the same batch history. 

Not universally they weren't ! Before mine started leaking air I was very happy with it ! I have subsequently discovered however that because I have no experience of what a long travel sprung suspension feels like I don't have a point of reference, other than the non suspension wheels I rode before, and it was certainly better than all of those ! I have also had no problems whatsoever with my sliders - they required no adjustment out of the box, moved silently then, and still do to this day, 2000 miles later 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

On 6/21/2023 at 8:28 AM, Cerbera said:

Not universally they weren't ! Before mine started leaking air I was very happy with it ! I have subsequently discovered however that because I have no experience of what a long travel sprung suspension feels like I don't have a point of reference, other than the non suspension wheels I rode before, and it was certainly better than all of those ! I

Fair point. I need to rephrase what I wrote, since there are those who have no prior suspension experience.

On 6/21/2023 at 8:28 AM, Cerbera said:

I have also had no problems whatsoever with my sliders - they required no adjustment out of the box, moved silently then, and still do to this day, 2000 miles later 

Wow, is that possible? If stiction or binding not an issue, how about slop, play? No maintenance for 2000 miles. Did you do any trail, and other types of off-road adventures? How rigorous did you put your wheel through?

Ignorance is bliss applies here. Wait until you try the Patton.

I afraid your data point may not be helpful here since I can't tell whether your Master's sliders are that good, or you just don't know better, except for the leaking air shock part. This poor quality of the Master shock has been widely acknowledged. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Wow, is that possible? If stiction or binding not an issue, how about slop, play?

Extremely minimal. If it is there I don't notice it while riding.

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Did you do any trail, and other types of off-road adventures? How rigorous did you put your wheel through?

Mainly cycleways and footpaths / roads etc, but some trails (none difficult, or traversed at vast speed). Also I don't do bonking up kerbs or try and ride steps upwards, so that may make some difference.

Perhaps I am just easily pleased ! But I do know that my back and knees have never been more grateful for suspension (such as it is) ever since it got here !

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I afraid you data point may not be helpful here since I can't tell whether your Master's sliders are that good, or you just don't know better.

Well, my definition of 'good' here means 'moves very smoothly with no noise or sticking points'. Perhaps I got lucky for a change !

Edited June 21, 2023 by Cerbera

[techyiam]

1 minute ago, Cerbera said:

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Wow, is that possible? If stiction or binding not an issue, how about slop, play?

Extremely minimal. If it is there I don't notice it while riding

 

2 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

15 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Did you do any trail, and other types of off-road adventures? How rigorous did you put your wheel through?

Mainly roads, but some trails (none difficult, or traversed at vast speed). Also I don't do bonking up kerbs or try and ride steps upwards, so that may make some difference.

Perhaps I am just easily pleased ! But I do know that my back and knees have never been more grateful for suspension (such as it is) ever since it got here !

 

2 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Well, my definition of 'good' here means 'moves very smoothly with no noise or sticking points'. Perhaps I got lucky for a change !

Perhaps, but on second thought, did Begode managed to fix the slider to a workable level? What batch is your Master? Even if it isn't butter smooth, it may be smooth enough for running around the city.

[Cerbera]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What batch is your Master?

3.

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

 

 

Perhaps, but on second thought, did Begode managed to fix the slider to a workable level? What batch is your Master? Even if it isn't butter smooth, it may be smooth enough for running around the city.

It's the same questionable design and tolerances design across all their wheels and batches, friends relatively new EX30 got some dirt inside the bushings and managed to scrape the stanchions quite a bit while also adding a lot of Stiction, his shock also leaked oil multiple times he's not sure how much oil is left in there.

I think someone only having tested Begode suspension before would be mind blown testing LK suspension.

[Freeforester]

14 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

From seeing the leaperkim suspension issues local where I am, I still much prefer the linkage design of begode. Cheaper and easier to maintain/replace down the line. I am fairly confident the extreme will be good coming from the ex30. Just depends if they can get that smart bms right. The patton doesnt have a smart bms

Looking at a video of one Fastace strut being dropped in where a faulty one was removed, I don’t see the ‘easier to maintain/replace’ part of your comment as being based in fact, having also watched numerous Begode suspension removal videos, but they certainly do appear to be cheaper; for sure, there appear to be more instances of the latter having issues than the former, at least on the various YT videos. But it may be, as you suggest, a little local (to where you are) difficulty which has brought you to this conclusion. Are those having issues near you using them on trails or just on the road? Or perhaps as jumper wheels, etc?

[Planemo]

15 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The purpose for replacing the spring would be to match the spring rate to the rider's weight 

I understand that, but I thought the previous posts were regarding maintenance, not mods.

14 hours ago, Rawnei said:

The oil seals and wipers are standard 37mm ones, there's plenty of brands, oil is standard fork oil.

Interesting. 37mm is unheard of in the MTB world. Recognised sizes are 36 and 38mm stanchions.

14 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I think people are inventing why Fastace suspension is troublesome to maintain, they are not, just some QC issues that lead to oil leakage.

I'd just like to say I think the SS setup is the best out there, not knocking it at all. My only concern would be future-proofing it. I was just pointing out that from an engineering angle I believe the Begode setup could be maintained even when spares are non-existent, and that I do not believe anyone would produce a 3rd party stanchion for the SS.

Of course theres every chance that FastAce will produce a zillion spares and hold them in a warehouse somewhere for LK. Who knows.

[Rollin-on-1]

21 minutes ago, Planemo said:

15 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The purpose for replacing the spring would be to match the spring rate to the rider's weight 

I understand that, but I thought the previous posts were regarding maintenance, not mods.

Go back and look at the comment by EUCzero to see where the discussion changed to mods. 

I tried to do the whole nested quotes thing but it is not working for me and it is late.  I'm off to bed.  Cheers!

[Rawnei]

40 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Interesting. 37mm is unheard of in the MTB world. Recognised sizes are 36 and 38mm stanchions.

It's common on motorcycles.

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I'd just like to say I think the SS setup is the best out there, not knocking it at all. My only concern would be future-proofing it. I was just pointing out that from an engineering angle I believe the Begode setup could be maintained even when spares are non-existent, and that I do not believe anyone would produce a 3rd party stanchion for the SS.

But think about it for a bit, there's a lot of custom parts in the Begode suspension system, the graphite bushings for example those will wear down and they are custom dimensions, not something you will easily find unless you find someone to custom make them for you according to spec (did anyone even document the dimensions yet?), the stanchions same thing, if you are unlucky they will wear down or get damaged due to the open design (already happened somewhat on my friends EX30), also something you might have a difficulty finding in the future.

I don't really care much about brand vs brand and it feels like this topic is a bit derailed by this discussion but I think it's an unfair comparison to make.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

It's common on motorcycles.

An MC won't have anything like the same outer dimensions for the seal, even if the internal size is correct.

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

But think about it for a bit, there's a lot of custom parts in the Begode suspension system

There is, but coming from an engineering background, everything within it is solvable. In contrast, if an SS stanchion wears beyond limits and a new one can't be found, good luck trying to fix it. 

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

but I think it's an unfair comparison to make.

We'll agree to disagree. And yes you're right, enough derailment.

[Rawnei]

57 minutes ago, Planemo said:

An MC won't have anything like the same outer dimensions for the seal, even if the internal size is correct.

It's standard dimensions, 37 x 50 x 11 mm.

[adrianqbs]

4 hours ago, Rawnei said:

It's common on motorcycles.

But think about it for a bit, there's a lot of custom parts in the Begode suspension system, the graphite bushings for example those will wear down and they are custom dimensions, not something you will easily find unless you find someone to custom make them for you according to spec (did anyone even document the dimensions yet?), the stanchions same thing, if you are unlucky they will wear down or get damaged due to the open design (already happened somewhat on my friends EX30), also something you might have a difficulty finding in the future.

I don't really care much about brand vs brand and it feels like this topic is a bit derailed by this discussion but I think it's an unfair comparison to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l2Aesj_3vo

 

This guy on YouTube managed to find the right bushings, so it shouldn't too difficult to find. 30IDx34ODx25 is the size. I've found them on Taobao (the Chinese equivelant of Amazon), for like USD1.50.

He also managed to fix the slop in the suspension with a simple copper insert off the shelf from a DIY store.

TBH, for many of the parts Begode wheels, it's not difficul to find with a little searching and self educaton.

Edited June 22, 2023 by adrianqbs
additional info

[Rawnei]

24 minutes ago, adrianqbs said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l2Aesj_3vo

This guy on YouTube managed to find the right bushings, so it shouldn't too difficult to find. 30IDx34ODx25 is the size.

He also managed to fix the slop in the suspension with a simple copper insert off the shelf from a DIY store.

TBH, for many of the parts Begode wheels, it's not difficul to find with a little searching and self educaton.

I already looked before when I was fidding with my Master, they are not easy to find you have to custom order, take a look yourself on AliExpress.

So maybe look yourself before you say it's easy to find with a little searching and education?

[adrianqbs]

21 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I already looked before when I was fidding with my Master, they are not easy to find you have to custom order, take a look yourself on AliExpress.

So maybe look yourself before you say it's easy to find with a little searching and education?

If it helps, here's the link for the specific store that sells the bushings. It'll cost like USD1.5 before shipping. Shipping to me in Malaysia is like USD4.

I'm not sure if the sellers ship to Sweden directly. And it might be messy to mess around with the forwarders. If you like, I can order it and have it sent to me and I'll post it to you.

 

For reference: 内= inner 外= outer 高= height 石墨铜套= graphite brass sleeve

https://m.tb.cn/h.5a95tWE?tk=wJ8CdIW3zW8

 

If the measurements happen to be different on the Master, let me know the size and I'll find the listing for you.

This is the search term that you can use if you'd like to try searching elsewhere.

JDB石墨铜套MPBZ自润滑OFL耐磨衬套OFK内径30 32外径 34 35 38 40

Edited June 22, 2023 by adrianqbs

[mrelwood]

On 6/21/2023 at 2:32 PM, jimjam.nyc said:

I have not seen the benefit yet with the v13 or the s22 that their "smart" BMS brings. I get the ability to obsess over individual cell voltages.. just not sure what the benefit is, especially if you notice something off there really isnt anything you can do about it other than replace the battery or get it serviced.

Even bigger deal in the V13 and S22 BMSs in my books is not that you can monitor the voltages, but that it balances the cells all the time (when needed) above 3.7V (V13 does, and I understand the S22 does too). Regular EUC BMSs only properly balances if you charge it to full + 1-2 hours and then leave it be for several hours before going for a ride. Very specific process that very few know about. The V13 and S22 remain balanced even if you’d only ever charge to 80%, which is a killer for traditional BMSs.

 The benefits of the Smart BMS will be clearer in time when the wheels get older. There should be much less battery related issues.

[EUCzero]

22 hours ago, techyiam said:

You do realize @Rawnei has ownership experiences with both a Begode suspension wheel, and a Veteran suspension wheel. According to your profile, you haven't own a Veteran suspension wheel yet. 

Are you a tech at a dealer/distributors. If not, what are your sources? Can you provide the links to the Veteran suspension failures, since I don't see the numbers that you are implying, online.

The stock air shock and linkage that came with your Master, are you happy with them, or have you replace them already with third party parts?

Are you happy with the slider on your Master? Kevin @ Alienrides publicly stated it was a nightmare for him to mix and match from different units out of the box to minimize the slop and binding stiction, due to gross dimensional inaccuracies. 

There is no third party suspension struts for the Sherman-S because there just isn't a demand for them. Owners have continually reporting how well the suspension works.

In contrast, initially, there were no third party linkage for the Master. That came about because that linkage was so poorly designed. So demand for a better linkage arose, and third party linkages started to appear.

I have spoken to local Sherman-S owners, and read the threads online. Sherman-S owners are praising the Sherman-S suspension. Whereas, the owners of the Master were in disappointment with the suspension for the same batch history. (Edit: It has been pointed out to me that there are folks who have no prior suspension experience may still be happy with their Master's suspension.) The the underlying linkage design issue is still there. The suspension can only use a fraction of the available stroke of the shock. 

Until the Extreme get sorted out, for big jumps and drops, people usually turn to the S22/Pro. For those who attempt to do the big stuff, it would not be surprising if their wheels get trashed on a non-S22 wheel.

Furthermore, Leaper Kim has already addressed the early batch suspension issues, for the most part. Even though the Master has been out longer than the Sherman-S, the stock slider and damper are still underwhelming, not on par with what are already on the Sherman-S.

It appears somebody may have too much Begode cool-aid to drink.

So.
No I do not own a Sherman S. But that does not mean I have no friends
I even consider Rawnei my friend, and I know all about his Master problems (more than most have had). In the Stockholm riders community, there have been several riders with leakage in the suspensions. As well as I have seen several others on youtube and FB. Do I have links? No. Because I do not care enough about the Sherman S to save all info I read about it. But even Rawnei can confirm about the leaking Sherman S suspensions in Stockholm. But I do agree it is the most comfortable I have ridden when I rode it.

Regarding sliders. Are there ANYTHING even close to be as bad as S22 sliders? Sure Begode sliders could be better, and new bushings are not easy to find. But hahahaha. show me any standard replacement stuff for the s22 sliders. 

What I wrote was not that Begode did things right with the Master. What I wrote was that ALL seems to have problems making good suspensions without problems. Even Leaperkim.
Francois probably know more. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by EUCzero

[jmsjms]

How much longer on a test review and a tear down?

[The Brahan Seer]

Latest trail footage from Begode...