Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s strange. The suspension barely extends at all when the tire leaves the ground. Pumped way over nominal to survive the drop?

In other words, practically no sag, and possibly oversprung too? If you going to cheat, may as well cheat more?

Now we have to wait and see how progressive the linkage is, and how well it actually works. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by techyiam

[bpong]

a good test for the Extreme suspension is to have a rider ride down the stairs in the CN tower, from top to bottom, 1776 steps.  if it can survive the several minutes of continuous pounding against the stair steps,  it may become a good marketing gimmick....cant wait for some demented individual to actually attempt that,  joking aside....

[techyiam]

Below is a photo showing the top structure of the Extreme where the controller is housed, and where the mono-shock linkage attachment points are located. Build quality is looking good here. Additionally, a decent weather seal is also shown. 

 

Begode Master

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

Definitely looking good so far. The suspension videos didn't look all that amazing, but to be fair none of the suspensions  including the ones considered the best seem to still have their issues.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

including the ones considered the best seem to still have their issues.

What are the issues relating to suspension that are widespread have you heard concerning the Sherman-S, and V13?

Those wheels ride well, the Sherman-S in particular for being cushy and butter smooth. The latter also doesn't seem to be requiring frequent attention either, if ridden normally.

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Definitely looking good so far.

The Extreme does look like a wheel we haven't seen from Begode before. The design elements don't look cheap anymore.

In addition, Chance said that Begode in consultation with him decided on a 16" wheel instead of an 18" deliberately to get the chassis dynamics they were after.

Moreover, it has been reported over in Facebook discussions that Begode will put a smart BMS in the Extreme after all.

Edited May 19, 2023 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What are the issues relating to suspension that are widespread have you heard concerning the Sherman-S, and V13?

Those wheels ride well, the Sherman-S in particular for being cushy and butter smooth. The latter also doesn't seem to be requiring frequent attention either, if ridden normally.

By issues I don't mean full of problems. But none of them are without their issues.

Veterans have shocks that leak after bottoming out, which is apparently pretty easy to do. Apparently there are so many opinions on what spring rate to get for you weight. I get so many different answers from everyone I ask, even my distributor. So you are stuck guessing and possibly buying another set of shocks to accommodate. I've been suggested all 3 rates for my weight already by different people. BTW I am around 130lbs. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. Considering I am below all the weight recommendations for all 3 rates.

V13 everyone knows these shocks are not the best performers, also don't seem to be the most robust for the size of the wheel.

S22.....

Begodes are struggling with geometries and subpar airshock qualities.

That being said, none of them terrible, and all fixable. Just saying that all of the suspensions seem to have their growing pains still

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

That being said, none of them terrible, and all fixable. Just saying that all of the suspensions seem to have their growing pains still

I would have to disagree.

I would say many owners of the Sherman-S, Patton, and the V13 would experience minimal if at all serious issues with their suspension out of the box if they rode them within the design point.

Not so with the S22, Master, T4, etc.

The sliders of the S22 is an open design that doesn't work as well as it should, and requires inordinate amount of frequent maintenance. It has been said that once you put in the roller sliders, it rides like a completely different wheel. But it is still an open design, exposed to the elements. . 

The stock air shocks that comes with the Master and T4, etc. are bottom of the barrel in design and quality. The design of the linkage in the Master is a complete joke.

Moreover, the sliders in the Master and derivatives are essentially two pipes, one inside the the other with no precision to talk about. Kevin at Alienrides talk about it on Facebook of the nightmare he had to contend with.

The FastAce hydraulic suspension used in the Sherman-S and Patton were designed by engineers who have suspension knowhow and experience. 

Whereas the slider on the S22, and the suspension in the Begode wheels were tasks that were assigned to some poor souls at the companies who were not  suspension design engineers.

That is about how I would sum it up.

Having said that, I don't know what is going on at Kingsong, but at least at Begode, we are starting to see improvements. The EX30 maybe a start, and hopefully more to come with the Extreme and later models. 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

14 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I would have to disagree.

I would say many owners of the Sherman-S, Patton, and the V13 would experience minimal if at all serious issues with their suspension out of the box if they rode them within the design point.

Not so with the S22, Master, T4, etc.

The sliders of the S22 is an open design that doesn't work as well as it should, and requires inordinate amount of frequent maintenance. It has been said that once you put in the roller sliders, it rides like a completely different wheel. But it is still an open design. 

The stock air shocks that comes with the Master and T4, etc. are bottom of the barrel in design and quality. The design of the linkage in the Master is a complete joke.

Moreover, the sliders in the Master and derivatives are essentially two pipes, one inside the the other with no precision to talk about. Kevin at Alienrides talk about it on Facebook of the nightmare he had to contend with.

The FastAce hydraulic suspension used in the Sherman-S and Patton were designed by engineers who have suspension knowhow and experience. 

Whereas the slider on the S22, and the suspension in the Begode wheels were tasks that were assigned to some poor souls at the companies who were not  suspension design engineers.

That is about how I would sum it up.

Having said that, I don't know what is going on at Kingsong, but at least at Begode, we are starting to see improvements. The EX30 maybe a start, and hopefully more to come with the Extreme and later models. 

 

 

 

Well patton will be my first suspension wheel so I will see how it goes. 

On topic this wheel Def seems to be going in the right direction. Wonder if the weight will be accurate or if it will come in heavier than expected. After looking at it, I would be curious if it doesn't weigh a bit more than originally thought.

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

On topic this wheel Def seems to be going in the right direction. Wonder if the weight will be accurate or if it will come in heavier than expected. After looking at it, I would be curious if it doesn't weigh a bit more than originally thought.

I didn't weigh it, but others have. It has been reported to be about 90 lbs. If you have to lift it, it will be heavy.

However, when you ride it, it really does not feels like a heavy wheel. And it trolleys well.

Back to back riding on a very tight track, the Patton is a much easier to ride wheel than the EX30, and much much easier to ride than a V13 or Abrams (weight wise).  Abrams is the worse by far. And the Abrams is only about 7 lbs heavier than the Patton. 

The Patton does not feel more difficult to ride than an S22, even though the S22 is only 77 lbs.

 

[Rollin-on-1]

3 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Apparently there are so many opinions on what spring rate to get for you weight. I get so many different answers from everyone I ask, even my distributor. So you are stuck guessing and possibly buying another set of shocks to accommodate. I've been suggested all 3 rates for my weight already by different people. BTW I am around 130lbs. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. Considering I am below all the weight recommendations for all 3 rates.

Have you watched the 2 cells 1 pack review of the Patton?  By the way, the guy is Albert Cua from Eevees.  His significant other weighs less than 100 lbs and she preferred the 66lb spring over the 62lb spring.  That may be a useful data point for you.

[jimjam.nyc]

16 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Have you watched the 2 cells 1 pack review of the Patton?  By the way, the guy is Albert Cua from Eevees.  His significant other weighs less than 100 lbs and she preferred the 66lb spring over the 62lb spring.  That may be a useful data point for you.

I don't want to get too off topic! Yeah I watched it and some other reviews and opinions. Unfortunately not too many of the reviewers state what settings they use, or even tried. Suspension is kind of quickly glossed over with i bottomed out a few times as statements. I also am not riding around looking for stairs or jumps, etc. I plan to use it just to ride around. The streets here in nyc blow, so just looking to use the suspension as a way to deal with that. So I am sure I will be ok no matter what. I was just stating all this to say none of these manufactures have this down 100% yet. It's still a bit of a new thing for eucs. 

[okvp]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

 

The FastAce hydraulic suspension used in the Sherman-S and Patton were designed by engineers who have suspension knowhow and experience. 

 

 

 

FastAce is a Chinese manufacturer of cheap suspension, you can't get anything top from them. And also long-term quality and maintainability are still a question mark. Especially if they haven't used standard seals and bushings. You can't practically change the suspension to a better one because there's nothing else available. To some extent suspension experts can try to adjust shim stacks etc. but it's not cheap...

Instead, if the wheel manufacturer is using the standard shock, you can have a top suspension by paying extra (If the suspension geometry can be made or is correct).  It's unbelievable that Begode managed to screw up Master's suspension geometry, every engineer with a little knowledge of mechanics can calculate it easily.

So you can get top suspension for the Extreme, if Begode will manage to design geometry correctly. By so far the videos of Extreme's suspension haven't been very convincing....

 

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Suspension is kind of quickly glossed over with i bottomed out a few times as statements. I also am not riding around looking for stairs or jumps, etc. I plan to use it just to ride around. The streets here in nyc blow, so just looking to use the suspension as a way to deal with that. So I am sure I will be ok no matter what. I was just stating all this to say none of these manufactures have this down 100% yet. It's still a bit of a new thing for eucs. 

Albert Cua brought those two Patton's to two events. At the first event, there was just the 62 lbs spuing Patton. At the 2nd event, he brought both Pattons.

At the time, I didn't know the 2nd Patton had the 66 lbs spring. I just knew the S22 no longer rode better than Patton, like how I felt at the first event. Initially I thought both Pattons had the 62 lbs spring, and therefore, I thought the difference in ride was due to the uneven asphalt at the first event. But since Albert has now said that the other Patton has a 66 lbs spring, I think it is more due to the stiffer spring.

I weigh about 150 lbs.

With the 62 lbs spring, the Patton felt flighty and lacks wheel control on asphalt surfaces not evenly smooth, not real bumps yet. The S22 and V13 felt better.

With the 66 lbs spring on smooth asphalt, the Patton felt right, and felt best on that track, even over the S22. However, the S22 is a close 2nd to me. The S22 is a nice riding wheel; but it lacks torque, especially from rest.

The 66 lbs Patton still has a soft ride for me, but the suspension movements are well controlled. If the wheel is stationary and I bounce it up and down, the wheel moves up and down a lot still. However, I didn't feel the wheel was undersprung. Hence, there is no way I would get a Patton with a spring softer than 66 lbs. 

I didn't feel the 66 lbs sprung Patton rode worse than a non-suspension wheel on perfectly smooth asphalt, even on a very tight track.

I don't do drops, jumps nor curbs, etc.

Also, I don't do off road. My use case is basically just to get around the city on mostly city streets. 

Hence, the 66 lbs spring should do for me.

 

3 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I was just stating all this to say none of these manufactures have this down 100% yet. It's still a bit of a new thing for eucs. 

This brings up another point.

I have a feeling Leaper Kim is deliberately discouraging riders from doing drops and jumps that are sizable by limiting maximum spring rates.

You ride outside the design point, you risk breaking your wheel. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

18 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I have a feeling Leaper Kim is deliberately discouraging riders from doing drops and jumps that are sizable by limiting maximum spring rates.

I strongly doubt that any manufacturer would strategize like that. They’re just trying to do wheels that sell. And didn’t LeaperKim already announce the Patton to become available with a 70lbs spring as well?

 An average Chinese weighs maybe about a tenth of an average American. We’ve seen this before, that an EUC manufacturer doesn’t think of how people on the other side of the world are heavier and use the EUC harder than they had imagined. People give feedback, they realize that they didn’t think of that, and comply with an upgraded thicker axle, stiffer springs, faster EUCs, etc.

 Even Inmotion, the most safety conscious manufacturer, got into the game and made the fastest EUC available at the time. They didn’t make the V13 a slow wheel so that people would ride slower and safer. If they had, people just wouldn’t buy it. Same goes with a wheel that is bad for jumping. The community can’t be fooled like that, we’d find it out soon enough.

[Rawnei]

8 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I strongly doubt that any manufacturer would strategize like that. They’re just trying to do wheels that sell. And didn’t LeaperKim already announce the Patton to become available with a 70lbs spring as well?

Hmm interesting where did you see that?

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Hmm interesting where did you see that?

Oh man… I try to keep up in too many places! If it wasn’t in the Patton thread, it could’ve been any of the TG chats: suspension wheels, Inmotion official, or V13. Or EUC.sale review YT video comments.

 Or it was just a dream… 

Sorry.

Edited May 20, 2023 by mrelwood

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, okvp said:

FastAce is a Chinese manufacturer of cheap suspension, you can't get anything top from them. And also long-term quality and maintainability are still a question mark. Especially if they haven't used standard seals and bushings. You can't practically change the suspension to a better one because there's nothing else available.

It's relative.

If you have ridden the first batch of the Master, and the first batch of the Sherman-S, it would be clear as day.

For most owners, there haven't been a need to modify the suspension.

By now there is enough time has past to say the Sherman-S suspension is more trouble free than both the Master and the S22.

5 hours ago, okvp said:

To some extent suspension experts can try to adjust shim stacks etc. but it's not cheap...

Although FastAce does seem to use some form of shim stack for oil control in the hydraulic circuit for damping, have you seen the internals of the Sherman-S suspension structs to be certain that they don't use the cheaper damping rod design?

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

I have a feeling Leaper Kim is deliberately discouraging riders from doing drops and jumps that are sizable by limiting maximum spring rates.

I strongly doubt that any manufacturer would strategize like that. They’re just trying to do wheels that sell. And didn’t LeaperKim already announce the Patton to become available with a 70lbs spring as well?

 

5 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Hmm interesting where did you see that?

 

49 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Oh man… I try to keep up in too many places! If it wasn’t this thread, it could’ve been any of the TG chats: suspension wheels, Inmotion official, or V13. Or EUC.sale review YT video comments.

 Or it was just a dream… 

 

The premise that you used for your argument got called out, and it appears to have been based on fake news.

You need to find another one.....  or I can rest my case.

Edited May 20, 2023 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

50 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Oh man… I try to keep up in too many places! If it wasn’t this thread, it could’ve been any of the TG chats: suspension wheels, Inmotion official, or V13. Or EUC.sale review YT video comments.

 Or it was just a dream… 

Sorry.

I think it was wishful thinking by another forum member. 😂

I haven't seen anything about 70lb version, 66lb Sherman S just now reaching customers, 66lb Patton will be shipping out in June.

[bpong]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

...

 An average Chinese weighs maybe about a tenth of an average American.

...

geezzzz, are you saying Americans weight about 1000lb !?!?! (lmao...)

i hope this is your stab at sarcasim...

[Hellkitten]

For what it’s worth, when I test rode the Sherman S it was the 66lb spring. I weigh about 155 without gear. I picked the same spring for the wheel I ordered. Same as my buddy that is about the same weight. I’ll mostly be riding crappy city pothole filled streets, some jumps and dropping curbs. I have yet to ride the Patton……

 

sorry for the continued derail……..🤣

Edited May 20, 2023 by Hellkitten

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

The premise that you used for your argument got called out, and it appears to have been based on fake news.

You need to find another one.....  or I can rest my case.

That’s hilarious! 

If you’re assuming that I would start a premise for my argument with the word “didn’t” and end it with a question mark, I am offended! 

I’m hoping that others don’t take a question as “fake news“ either… Or humanity is majorly screwed!

Physics professor: “I don’t have the time… What time is it?”

Audience: ”Oh no, he’s claiming that there is no time! The universe will collapse!!”

[Freeforester]

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

That’s hilarious! 

If you’re assuming that I would start a premise for my argument with the word “didn’t” and end it with a question mark, I am offended! 

I’m hoping that others don’t take a question as “fake news“ either… Or humanity is majorly screwed!

Physics professor: “I don’t have the time… What time is it?”

Audience: ”Oh no, he’s claiming that there is no time! The universe will collapse!!”

 

Struct: 'Struct' keyword is used to create a structure. A structure can contain variables, methods, static constructor, parameterized constructor, operators, indexers, events, and property. A structure can not derive/inherit from any structure or class. A structure can implement any number of interfaces.

 

Strut: a rod or bar acting as part of a framework and designed to resist compression.

 

‘To err is human, to forgive divine’  
- the ‘70lb spring’ is but a ‘matter’ of time…

[okvp]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

It's relative.

If you have ridden the first batch of the Master, and the first batch of the Sherman-S, it would be clear as day.

For most owners, there haven't been a need to modify the suspension.

By now there is enough time has past to say the Sherman-S suspension is more trouble free than both the Master and the S22.

Although FastAce does seem to use some form of shim stack for oil control in the hydraulic circuit for damping, have you seen the internals of the Sherman-S suspension structs to be certain that they don't use the cheaper damping rod design?

Yes, but the link ratio of the Master was initially really bad and the shock is cheap Chinese unit. Sherman S I rode very shortly and it was first suspension wheel I have ridden. The ride felt really nice compared to non suspension wheel, but things can always be better...  

Spring rate is easy to calculate. Damping is the difficult part, it is expensive to manufacture and tune. Big brands like RockShox or Fox have good knowledge of design, components are modular and produced in big numbers.  You can have decent shock for 300€, serviceability is also good.

I haven't seen internals of Sherman-s Suspension. Damper rod design was used with older and cheaper motorcycles there can be also spring loaded valves with damper rod to make it bit better.  

Edited May 20, 2023 by okvp

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, okvp said:

Yes, but the link ratio of the Master was initially really bad and the shock is cheap Chinese unit. Sherman S I rode very shortly and it was first suspension wheel I have ridden. The ride felt really nice compared to non suspension wheel, but things can always be better...  

Spring rate is easy to calculate. Damping is the difficult part, it is expensive to manufacture and tune. Big brands like RockShox or Fox have good knowledge of design, components are modular and produced in big numbers.  You can have decent shock for 300€, serviceability is also good.

Going forward, the same constraints will still be in place. People have been complaining about the price of new wheels. The manufacturers have to come out with cost effective suspension systems. For those riders who don't want to mess with their suspension out of the box would be well served by wheels such as the Sherman-S and the Patton. 

Mind you the EX30 seemed nice enough out of the box. Begode Extreme could be another step forward. High quality hydraulic shocks are not cheap, so mono-shock based design may prove competitive should someone can figure out how to produce good cost effective sliders.

Inmotion is working on a new suspension system too. This competition is great to see. It can force a manufacturer to pull a rabbit of a hat.

I was impressed by Leaper Kim's first attempt at making suspension wheels.