New Veteran "Abrams" 22-inch Wheel

[RetroThruster]

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts, mine is supposed to be here tomorrow but weather here isn't so good and my work schedule sucks so it might be a few days before I get to ride it.  Oh, your outer box looks pristine, FedEx here is pretty rough on my packages, fingers crossed it shows up looking half as good as yours does.

And of course it shows up today with shipping damage, thanks FedEx.  My rear frame above the mudguard is bent down and touching the tire, I hope the frame isn't one piece for ease of repair, just my luck...

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by RetroThruster

[Mango]

I’m leaning towards the Abrams as well, other contenders being the S20 and V13. Perhaps going to wait for second batch this time around from Leaperkim not be the first to buy like I did for the Sherman.
 

Wrongway rides his Abrams and posts a lot of IG stories about it. Not sure when his review is coming out, but he’s had issues with the bearings, but otherwise loves the wheel.

[Jpd]

It’s here! Took a short ride around the neighborhood, first impression is it doesn’t feel as big as it is. I haven’t ridden a big wheel before so this will definitely take some getting used to. It is wide, probably why the pedals are so big. I’ll have some more time on it tomorrow, if anyone wants to know anything more about it.

[That Guy]

Yes, @Jpd and @Kekafuch! :-) Three things I would love to understand about Abrams.

1. One practical aspect for me personally is hill-climbing. I really need to understand how it deals with hills - both going uphill and breaking downhill. I mean, I know, it cannot perform on a par with a 16" wheel... (Or... Can it?... :-))

2. And I know it would be a very unfair comparison, but I would like to understand your subjective impression from how smooth the 22" Abrams is compared to S18 on a paved road and in a moderate off-road. Maybe I am just trying to compare impossible but weirdly, my personal choice at the moment would be between Abrams and S20.

3. And the other thing I would like to understand whether it really feels flimsy? Loose plastic, knocking noises inside? And it's not in terms of the build quality but rather construction, overall shell design, etc.

I am a little bit perplexed with the couple of negative Abrams unboxing videos. The first was by Denis Hagov who rubbished Abrams in strong terms (and then deleted the video and replaced it with a much more positive one). And the second was a somewhat negative unboxing video from WrongWay where Adam's biggest concern was about the flimsy construction. There has never been a following video from WrongWay (maybe it is still coming, of course) but there was a heavy comment about Abrams in another video by WrongWay something like "Abrams feels like a prototype, not a finished product, not clear what LeaperKim were trying to achieve"... 

I am curious whether Abrams is just not yet "understood" and may still be the most underrated of the new EUC's on the market partially because it was introduced too quietly and within a deck of brighter coloured marketing brochures?

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, That Guy said:

One practical aspect for me personally is hill-climbing. I really need to understand how it deals with hills - both going uphill and breaking downhill. I mean, I know, it cannot perform on a par with a 16" wheel... (Or... Can it?... :-))

did you mean: a lowly 16x can go up and down this certain street in your town...

[That Guy]

Ok, ok, specifically - I can't buy an EUC that cannot take my 95kg up that 20 degree street (35%) at 10-15kph. :-)

[Kekafuch]

28 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Ok, ok, specifically - I can't buy an EUC that cannot take my 95kg up that 20 degree street (35%) at 10-15kph. :-)

I am back from my ride. 86km loop and the voltage is at 81.9v. 144m climbs and 121m declines according to gmaps so it’s relatively a flat ride. 

Likely do a write up later about this initial impression. 

To answer your question about hill climbing. My initial feel going on a 100’ climb was that it isn’t easy to get this wheel to crawl up a hill without momentum. I think it needs serious pad torquing to request power. Does it have the power? Will have to find out or maybe in other more capable riders hands. 

The 100’ hill, I feel my Sherman can take it better as in more throttle feel while on the hill. I was almost at a standstill on this hill when slowing down for a pedestrian and then found I could hardly get the power going after crawling. Likely I don’t have experience to torque it. On my Sherman I am on stock pads and same with the Abrams. Soft mode. 

My gut feeling is that a torque 16-20” wheel will be much better choice for climbing hills w grace and control. 
 

 

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

My gut feeling is that a torque 16-20” wheel will be much better choice for climbing hills w grace and control. 

This is a good place to post my yearly reminder of this great explainer by @RockyTop

This explains why you will never get a big euc going uphill as easily as smaller euc. No matter what the torque rating is as it has nothing to do with it.

Also, let’s remind the folks on wheel sizes now that the discussion includes 16-22” numbers. There are 16x3” class with real diameter of 17-17.5” and 18x3” class with real diameter of 19-19.5”. There is no 20” class different from 18” class, they are all the same despite of marketing numbers. 16x2.5” (V10) and 18x2.5” (18XL) are a bit smaller. I don’t know what it says on the side of Abram’s tire, but I doubt it’s 4” larger than Sherman or other 18” class wheels. These numbers get confusing but are important to get right when talking about hill climbing.
 

Whatever the true size is on Abrams (I’m guessing 16” rim size) it will always feel very sluggish to accelerate and hard to ride uphill compared to 14” or 12” rim wheels. It’s good for mainly riding long distance with relaxed style. If you do stop & go riding with lots of hill climbing, go for smaller wheels. Waiting for higher torque specs to overcome this reality is futile. 

[Kekafuch]

Today’s first ride averaged 26kmh according to DarknessBot. I rode 85.8km and the voltage was at 81.9v. Assuming the low voltage alarm is 78volts I had 17.1% battery remaining for an estimated max range of 103.5kms. Temperature was 6-8deg Celsius and path had minimal elevation change (144m climb) in an urban city environment. Rider weight 210lbs not including gear. Entire day was spent in soft mode. 

 

I spent 6km in a parking lot getting familiar with the wheel without pads and then with the stock pads. All slow speed stuff circling picnic tables, tight turns, braking. It can do slow maneuvering and in some instances feels better than the Sherman but not isn’t “fun” to make tight random maneuverS. The moves need to be orchestrated vs random point here and then suddenly change to another direction. Nope, the Abrams wants you to make a decision and commit. 

 

Speed. For now I feel the Sherman is faster but possibly because I am more familiar with it and less familiar with the Abrams. I was on common street routes I have taken many times and would hit 55-60kmh on the Sherman but didn’t hit those beeps today on the Abrams. 

 

For a  first time ride on the Abrams, it felt like meeting an old friend. My experience is about 5000kms on V8/V10 and 6000km on the Sherman. I was riding in traffic and felt more confident than ever before. The Abrams is more stable on the street when turning and slightly banking. Even going straight on a “stable” Sherman requires constant adjustments that takes mental concentration. Because the Abrams is a lot more stable, I found my mind more at ease and able to ride closer to traffic without as much fear because I am able to track tighter. Small cracks on the road quickly become comfortable to roll over. There’s less wobbles accelerating in and out of carves and when braking. 

 

Not conclusive where I stand on this wheel. Right now I am enjoying the Abrams as a cool sexy piece of EUC kit. My assumption was that it would be a torque wheel with speed that would compliment the Sherman and be different enough to keep both wheels. I am not sure what a torque wheel feels like but I would not say this blows the Sherman away on this particular ride with my limited noob experiences. Right now I don’t see enough difference between the Abrams and Sherman and the Sherman edges out the Abrams if I had to choose right now which wheel better suits me. The range and smaller battery baffles me when a smaller Sherman form factor can carry more battery, feel faster, and more nimble w decent stability. 

 

When I got my Sherman, I actually hated it but after a few hundred Kms  I keep appreciating it and till 5000km loving it more and more. Recently I felt I want more torque cause I can hear the motor struggle on climbs and I also over powered the Sherman where the pedals dipped forward a lot from just leaning. I am mostly a tourist style rider , enjoying bursts of speed like 10-20% of the time and more about creating nice looking loops where I can see people and enjoy some street eats. Will need at least 300km to finalize if the Abrams is enjoyable in stop and go commuting. On a positive note, first ride and it felt good w a smile on my face so it should only get better right? The Abrams likely has a lot more power that I am not able to harness since I never ridden with big pads before. The motor never sounded like it was struggling so likely I need to learn how to torque it. 

 

Cut out tests … I did the torque tests at the beginning of the day and felt I wasn’t able to apply enough force for that quick jerk. At the end of the day, I tried again with low battery and having my hand assisted on a pole. I was able to make the wheel dip without much effort in soft mode. This is concerning and I will focus on this in the coming days. I have emailed my retailer about any updates on the cut off issue and they haven’t gotten back to me yet. 

 

I am quite happy the Abrams fits in the front passenger area of my car. Sits there nicely. It’s larger yes but because it fits, it’s still practical enough. A quick lift really doesn’t feel much different than the Sherman and maybe a bit better since it’s taller so I don’t have to bend over as far. Laying it in the trunk, will find out soon enough… 

 

Build quality. I would put the Abrams on par if not slightly better than the Sherman. In my opinion, all these wheel are toast if crashed a certain way, even at 30kmh. I was surprised as well when Dennis and WrongWay criticized the build. Maybe they seen better wheels evolve? Personally I am happy with how these wheels feel and very happy with how they look. 
 

[That Guy]

Thank you,@Kekafuch, very comprehensive!
Am I right that you could title it “why Abrams if there is Sherman?” :-)

[Kekafuch]

On 2/6/2022 at 10:02 AM, That Guy said:

Thank you,@Kekafuch, very comprehensive!
Am I right that you could title it “why Abrams if there is Sherman?” :-)

 

Took about 10km to adjust to Sherman after riding the Abrams yesterday. The Sherman felt a lot smaller than it is after riding the Abrams.  It was a surreal feeling.
 

The Sherman Max w the upgraded motor and larger battery should be the  volume seller and better do it all wheel. For someone wanting a big wheel, the Monster Pro has more battery, bigger tire, and is lighter weight?  That’s my thoughts but I haven’t ridden the Monster Pro enough to comment more than it’s listed specs. I have a feeling there should be an Abrams Max… 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Kekafuch

[Kekafuch]

On 2/5/2022 at 1:08 PM, RetroThruster said:

I'm anxious to hear your thoughts, mine is supposed to be here tomorrow but weather here isn't so good and my work schedule sucks so it might be a few days before I get to ride it.  Oh, your outer box looks pristine, FedEx here is pretty rough on my packages, fingers crossed it shows up looking half as good as yours does.

And of course it shows up today with shipping damage, thanks FedEx.  My rear frame above the mudguard is bent down and touching the tire, I hope the frame isn't one piece for ease of repair, just my luck...

 

 

sorry to see this. You kind of predicted it too … I wonder what the solution of compromise is. If you are ok with DIY, I would want a new frame part sent out. Then you can try to fix the bent part yourself and have a new part as back up. The alternative? Ship the entire wheel back for replacement? 
 
Mine was shipped by UPS. Surprised they just leave a package like this without the need for a signature. 

[Jpd]

I got more time on the abrams today. I rode up and down some fairly steep hills, the wheel doesn’t seem to lack any power going up and brakes well coming down. I will say that the power pads it comes with suck, It’s hard to get the leverage needed. Some Clark pads will make a big difference. 
 

the shell does make some noise but it seems to be just the plastic moving on the roll bars, it doesn’t feel like it’s cheap at all. 

[RetroThruster]

20 hours ago, Kekafuch said:

 

sorry to see this. You kind of predicted it too … I wonder what the solution of compromise is. If you are ok with DIY, I would want a new frame part sent out. Then you can try to fix the bent part yourself and have a new part as back up. The alternative? Ship the entire wheel back for replacement? 
 
Mine was shipped by UPS. Surprised they just leave a package like this without the need for a signature. 

Yes I did, pretty much everything I get delivered here thru FedEx is damaged, I'm a carrier for the USPS and see first hand what these guys do here, you're lucky UPS delivered yours, but it would have been nice to ask for a signature for such an expensive package.

Jason is going to be receiving the part later this week and from what I've seen, it's an easy swap so I'll just do it myself, and yeah, I might try to straighten the damaged one to keep as a back up.

[Silver]

 

Got my Abrams today and wow this thing is massive. It makes my RS seem super tiny in comparison and it feels like steering a boat around. I'm sure my opinion on the handling and ride feel is something that will change as I get more comfortable on it. But it really does kind of feel like I'm having to learn to ride again right now. It feels like I'm back in that first month of riding where I can ride and even ride fast but everything is just slightly clumsy. Again I probably just need to spend more time with it so I won't talk to much about that but will Instead talk about what wont change and is more objective.

First of the power. I'm 6'4 and around 250lb so I can over power even my RS HT when I'm braking if I want to (though my balance isn't quite good enough to lean hard enough to do so when accelerating from a stop.) The Abrams on the other hand is super easy to over power both in braking and accelerating. I've never ridden a high speed wheel before so maybe that's just what one should expect but it's not hard for me to make the wheel dip like crazy from accelerating hard. When I was first trying it I thought it was in soft mode but it was actually in hard and it was just dipping from me over powering it. I haven't had one where it made me fall before it caught back up with me but not a great feeling none the less. I really tried to put it through it's paces when it came to braking because I wanted to make sure I could stop such a heavy wheel quickly for if a car braked suddenly or some one walks out in front of me (happened to day on my RS.) I really leaned back as hard as I could (with the bad stock pads) and grabbed the roll cage to put even more weight into it and I was able to stop pretty damn fast. That said the dipping was really bad of course, the wheel would drop to at least 45 degrees before I would end up stepping off (as it was at a stop by that point) or in the case of one time I fell of the back. If you're grabbing the roll cage it helps you stay on even with how much it dips but still a bit sketchy though I don't have any doubts that by the time it tilts back far enough for you to fall you will have slowed down enough to not hit what ever was causing you to break so hard. I'll try to get some videos of me over powering it tomorrow.

 

Only took it up to 25mph as I didn't get to ride it till it was already late at night but I'll try to get some more speed tomorrow and see how she dose. I did notice it was a bit wobbly or hard to balance at around 5-10 (might just be me getting used to the higher pedals) but it really get stable at around 20 and felt really good on the bumps.

 

Build, so the reason I think there has been so much mixed opinions about the build quality is the materials themselves feel nice and the construction seems good but the design just doesn't work great with the materials they picked it creaks a lot with the metal frame constantly shifting as you move your weight on it. When I ride with just one leg (a trick I've been practicing lately) some part of the frame grinds up against the wheel and makes a scraping sound. It just feels like something so heavy should not be flexing so much.

 

I love the pedal height it was my biggest complaint with my RS but with the Abrams it's pretty hard to scrape them.

 

No cut off problem and I really pushed it to try to get it to cut out.

[Planemo]

Good write-up!

Wow thats amazing how small it makes the RS look. I would never have guessed it was that big! Deffo too big for my use case but I imagine it's brilliant on the open road above the hills

 

[RagingGrandpa]

13 hours ago, Silver said:

I'm 6'4 and around 250lb so I can over power even my RS HT when I'm braking if I want to.
The Abrams on the other hand is super easy to over power both in braking and accelerating.

Yup.

That gets right to the point: a 100V 60mph EUC simply cannot give as much acceleration as a 100V 48mph EUC.

Freespin speed and voltage are a great way to summarize any model's performance, and let us ignore diameter, power ratings, and other distracting marketing.

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Silver]

I could really use some better sidepads as the stock ones really do suck but I did a video of me overpowering it I'll post later.

Getting used to how much of a gyro effect it has at high speed will definitely take me a while turning is a very different experience

[Denny Paul]

32 minutes ago, Silver said:

I could really use some better sidepads as the stock ones really do suck but I did a video of me overpowering it I'll post later.

Getting used to how much of a gyro effect it has at high speed will definitely take me a while turning is a very different experience

Wow and that’s on strong/hard mode? That’s nuts! I don’t think I could stand that.  

[That Guy]

I am getting the feel that Abrams is a good wheel having pros and cons. I know Kuji called "underwhelming", but overall it has its place and will match some people just perfectly, like in this review:

[Silver]

It's in medium mode but it dips just as much in hard. I probably should have done it in hard mode fore the video I just don't like hard mode I have a harder time balancing in hard mode.

 

 

[Denny Paul]

24 minutes ago, Silver said:

It's in medium mode but it dips just as much in hard. I probably should have done it in hard mode fore the video I just don't like hard mode I have a harder time balancing in hard mode.

Wow yeah that looks like you’re really not putting that much effort to get it to dip pretty crazy.

[Silver]

1 minute ago, Denny Paul said:

Wow yeah that looks like you’re really not putting that much effort to get it to dip pretty crazy.

Yeah, At speed It doesn't feel like it lacks power even when breaking but once you get around walking speed it becomes really easy to overpower. I was hoping since it's advertised as having more torque then the Sherman that it wouldn't be so bad on the low end but as long as it's not cutting out I guess it's not a deal breaker.

[Tawpie]

The low speed grumbles sound a lot like the S18 when it's pushed at low speed.

Q: one one of your braking passes (~1:12) it looked like the wheel held upright until you were almost stopped, then quickly tipped back. Did it feel that way?

[Silver]

21 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Q: one one of your braking passes (~1:12) it looked like the wheel held upright until you were almost stopped, then quickly tipped back. Did it feel that way?

Yes and no, I pulled back on it again and it felt like it dipped because of that. I think that one might have gotten to the point where it was trying to start going backwards but I'm not sure