New Veteran "Abrams" 22-inch Wheel

[Silver]

12 hours ago, Dan Hillary said:

May I ask your riding weight?

I'm 6'4" and my riding weight is around 250lbs so if someone was going to over power it on here it was going to be me. I'm still having to adjust to switching over from a HT wheel especially since I like to accelerate and break pretty aggressively (when safe)

I was mostly trying to figure out if the people who said it had poor breaking just didn't have enough leverage or if the wheel didn't have enough power. After over powering it I think it's some where in the middle. I had some promising first results and was trying to see if I could stop in a similar distance to my RS HT. Overpowering it aside it got very close so I would assume it's breaking performance is just as good as any other HS wheel. But, being just as good as any other high speed wheel is still a bit disappointing for a wheel that was marketed as having a "3,500W motor and higher torque than the Sherman" Guess I'll have to hope that something like the Begode Master is what I'm looking for as I really love my RS HT but I wanted just a bit more speed. Not that I'll be getting a new wheel any time soon after spending so much on the Abrams.

[Dan Hillary]

2 hours ago, Silver said:

I'm 6'4" and my riding weight is around 250lbs so if someone was...

Yeah I'm not sure about all this marketing about higher torque on the Abrams and the Max; the top speeds are the same and the boards don't seem to be different. You can't have both higher speed AND torque without raising the voltage so you can stick a high torque motor in and get the best of both worlds, and that's not what the Abrams has done.

Im with you though, this is my wheel for awhile because of what I spent, and I like it plenty, but when something Master-like with more battery and no suspension comes along I'll be switching to it.

[supercurio]

You can increase torque by feeding more amps to the motor at the same voltage, or increase perceived torque by tuning the self balancing algorithm and pedal behavior a little.

But I agree with you, the increased torque on the Abrams (clearly not) and Sherman Max (makes more sense) seems mostly marketing.

[Mango]

Wrong Way had a cutout on his Abrams going 55km/h at 60% battery. No beeps just instant pedal dip while going over some manhole covers on a paved road. He suffered minor injuries but a big injury to his trust in his wheel.

This is concerning since he put on many miles on this wheel.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Mango

[supercurio]

Unexpected potholes, speed bumps, manhole covers once in a while, are a basic fact when riding on street and roads.

If you have:

• A good tire and PSI to protect the rim from shattering
• Well adjusted pad setup so you stay in control and don't fly off the wheel
• Relaxed posture
• You're riding below the beeps

Well.. it's already a long list of requirements, and with that you should be just fine.

Being let down by the lack of safety margin (not enough torque) in this scenario is a huge disappointment.
Okay, it's one rider, one time and shit happens. But still, it doesn't bode well for the Abrams as a cruiser wheel. It means limited to slow cruising, well below its beeps.

Edited March 20, 2022 by supercurio

[EMA]

this wheel is broken from day 1, and it's absolutely useless compared to other wheels on the market, people has serious balls to buy and ride something so unsafe imho

[Forwardnbak]

5 hours ago, Mango said:

Wrong Way had a cutout on his Abrams going 55km/h at 60% battery. No beeps just instant pedal dip while going over some manhole covers on a paved road. He suffered minor injuries but a big injury to his trust in his wheel.

This is concerning since he put on many miles on this wheel.

Oh man :/ I think that review will be brutal. 
Damn, Adam steps up again to hold the manufacturers responsible. They can’t hide when such real evidence is on camera. 
 

I sure hope things like this get sorted, I could see people really policing these vehicles heavily where I live if they have increased serious injuries due to inferior product. It just  highlights risk to the public and then the public push for bans. 
 

Heal up Adam!

[supercurio]

@Forwardnbak I might be wrong but I think Adam's cutout is not due to a "defect" per say - like a random cutout due to a fault would be, but more of a lack of capability in power reserve at speeds supposed to be safe (below beeps).
So maybe not many ways to keep the manufacturer accountable, beside asking them to go back to the drawing board 🫤

It reminds me of Kingsong 16X which despite loads of torque at low speed, is notorious for its narrow of safety margin at higher speed which can lead to this:

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by supercurio

[Forwardnbak]

47 minutes ago, supercurio said:

@Forwardnbak I might be wrong but I think Adam's cutout is not due to a "defect" per say - like a random cutout due to a fault would be, but more of a lack of capability in power reserve at speeds supposed to be safe (below beeps).
So maybe not many ways to keep the manufacturer accountable, beside asking them to go back to the drawing board 🫤

It reminds me of Kingsong 16X which despite loads of torque at low speed, is notorious for its narrow of safety margin at higher speed which can lead to this:

 

Good point! I think I jumped to some idea of a conclusion without information - OR MORNING COFFEE! 
 

fixed now.

I am sure more info will land.

heal up anyone who falls I say. 

[RagingGrandpa]

18 hours ago, supercurio said:

Being let down by the lack of safety margin (not enough torque)

Pedals collapsing during steady-speed riding at 55kph, with a wheel that freespins at 100kph... that's not a torque problem. 

[supercurio]

19 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Pedals collapsing during steady-speed riding at 55kph, with a wheel that freespins at 100kph... that's not a torque problem. 

Freespin at 98kph but at full voltage, with the sag at 60% battery that might a lot less - and then not enough torque to handle chins hitting the pads on an unexpected bump?
Not sure.

[Denny Paul]

Manhole covers can be quite slippery, especially if there's water, oil, or dust involved. Looks like a quite dusty road...

I wonder if there's any difference in feel with one wheel that overleans due to malfunction, or another wheel that simply looses traction. You could probably hear the difference, but that's a narrow and quiet window. 

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

Freespin at 98kph but at full voltage, with 60% battery that might a lot less

Nah, we know enough to be more specific in the accusation of "defects" here...

60% SOC = 3.7V/cell = 88.8V/pack. 100% is 4.1V (voltage settles below the 4.2V/cell threshold quite quickly).
So at 60% SOC, the voltage-limited (freespin) speed is 88kph.
The firmware current limit is the "torque limit" through about 2/3rd of the motor's speed range- so with 60% SOC, we're expecting no practical difference in available torque at 55kph, than at 100%.

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

voltage, with the sag

A little more sag with 6p Abrams than with 10p Sherm or 8p SherMax... but it's still a very big pack, and sag is far less than other "old" 100kph EUC's like 4p RS-HS.

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

hitting the pads on an unexpected bump

... a situation nearly all riders have experienced. A momentary pedal dip is tolerable- since the bump is a single jolt, most EUC's recover from the disturbance and balancing control keeps functioning. Scary, but not a crash.

For me, it's clear this was either: 

1. Manufacturing defect (intermittent electrical signal during impact), or
2. Design defect (firmware unable to maintain stable control during sudden disturbances)

Both could be improved in future production batches, of course.

[supercurio]

6 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Nah, we know enough to be more specific in the accusation of "defects" here...

60% SOC = 3.7V/cell = 88.8V/pack. 100% is 4.1V (voltage settles below the 4.2V/cell threshold quite quickly).
So at 60% SOC, the voltage-limited (freespin) speed is 88kph.
The firmware current limit is the "torque limit" through about 2/3rd of the motor's speed range- so with 60% SOC, we're expecting no practical difference in available torque at 55kph, than at 100%.

A little more sag with 6p Abrams than with 10p Sherm or 8p SherMax... but it's still a very big pack, and sag is far less than other "old" 100kph EUC's like 4p RS-HS.

Yes I follow the logic. What we don't know (it wasn't shown in the Instagram story) is if it was 60% after 5 minutes recovering from the shock or 60% at the time of the crash.

On Sherman, 60% after 5min for me could be ~30% under load after a few minutes of high speed riding.
I noticed more sag on my friend's EX.N which is also 6P when we were riding together, that's why I brought it up as possibility.

6 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

... a situation nearly all riders have experienced. A momentary pedal dip is tolerable- since the bump is a single jolt, most EUC's recover from the disturbance and balancing control keeps functioning. Scary, but not a crash.

For me, it's clear this was either: 

1. Manufacturing defect (intermittent electrical signal during impact), or
2. Design defect (firmware unable to maintain stable control during sudden disturbances)

Both could be improved in future production batches, of course.

I agree it's possible too. We know that some models were cutting out when over-powered instead of recovering - at low speed and Leaperkim fixed that.
Since then we saw 2 cutouts that should not happen, the one from EUC Adventures, off-road at ~35 kph and that one at ~55 kph.
Does it mean that Leaperkim fixed the cutout on over-power condition at low speeds but not high speed?

I consider the other option as well since Adam and a few others showed a surprisingly low torque making it one of the worst climbing wheel for a while as well as fairly easy to over-power when braking.

Either way, it sucks, and it's probably enough to be a wheel to avoid for now.
Hopefully they can setup a rig to reproduce that at the speed desired and see what happens.

[Silver]

From the videos I have seen of Wrongway's Abrams there always looked like there was something wrong with it. The pedal dip in normal acceleration compared to other Abrams on here (and my own) looked comply different. It looked like it dipped more than mine does in soft mode when he was in hard mode. I can't imagen that that was just from him over powering it every time he accelerated because even at 250lb I have to be trying to accelerate reasonably hard to get it to dip. He said it was on the latest firmware but it just seemed like there was something up with that wheel. 

[InfiniteWheelie]

7 hours ago, Silver said:

From the videos I have seen of Wrongway's Abrams there always looked like there was something wrong with it. The pedal dip in normal acceleration compared to other Abrams on here (and my own) looked comply different. It looked like it dipped more than mine does in soft mode when he was in hard mode. I can't imagen that that was just from him over powering it every time he accelerated because even at 250lb I have to be trying to accelerate reasonably hard to get it to dip. He said it was on the latest firmware but it just seemed like there was something up with that wheel. 

I saw quite a few people in his comments section saying the same thing, that their own Abrams wasn't dipping like his was.

Edited March 22, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[supercurio]

Final video from Adam / Wrong Way on the Abrams.

He mentions 90V.
Like @RagingGrandpa mentioned earlier, that seem an odd voltage to run out of torque, and cutout et 55 km/h on such a bump.

Adam also mentions 5 people reached out who had cut-out on their Abrams - no further details on the circumstances unfortunately to identify patterns.

Very disappointing still.
A wheel that's in between niche and DOA, but it's getting worse.

Likewise, disappointed by the lack of engagement by the OEM, who could have at least requested the wheel data from the crash and put engineering resources into figuring things out.

 

[Mordraug]

Damn, I'm not sure what to do about my Abrams now. Adam suggests to not ride it until Leaperkim solves this problem, I'm rather sceptical whether they'll actually do it tho. I don't ride super fast, my speed is usually in the range of 30-50kph, but even at those speeds cutout would be dangerous, plus I ride a small part of my daily commute in traffic...

[.....]

On 3/21/2022 at 2:08 PM, Denny Paul said:

Manhole covers can be quite slippery, especially if there's water, oil, or dust involved. Looks like a quite dusty road...

I wonder if there's any difference in feel with one wheel that overleans due to malfunction, or another wheel that simply looses traction. You could probably hear the difference, but that's a narrow and quiet window. 

A wheel that slips traction on something like a manhole cover, lets you know it when you regain traction and lurch back. If its a short enough traction loss, its not a big deal and you barely notice it, depending on angle of attack. A cutout or overlean tho... its usually when at higher attack angles and it lasts longer. The most obvious diffrence is the amount of teeth lost...

Edited March 23, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Denny Paul]

16 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

A wheel that slips traction on something like a manhole cover, lets you know it when you regain traction and lurch back. If its a short enough traction loss, its not a big deal and you barely notice it, depending on angle of attack. A cutout or overlean tho... its usually when at higher attack angles and it lasts longer. The most obvious diffrence is the amount of teeth lost...

I think two-wheeled vehicles you have more of a chance of regripping the road. Like if the back end loses grip, the front tire probably still has grip so that buys enough time where the back can snap back and regrip. I get that. But with just one wheel, if traction is lost there is nothing stabilizing you. If the lose of traction is prolonged, I can't imagine it feeling any different than a wheel cut out.

The manhole cover in the video looks pretty dusty, but the road looks in alright-enough condition. If Adam lost traction on the manhole cover, I think 55-60kph would have likely let him clear the cover before he completely lost balance. This would grant him a chance to regain traction on the actual road. It likely would have been perceptible, even if he still fell from it. No report of this, so yeah this is probably a cut out cut out.

Thought it was worth mention because I believe cutouts are often reported when in reality they're explained by overlean or traction loss. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Denny Paul

[Mango]

Going 55km/h over a manhole cover, there is no time for the wheel to lose traction or spin out. Wheel contacts for a fraction of a second, so I don’t buy this argument.

Wrong Way is an experienced rider, so I think he knows full well how a one wheel device reacts to various road conditions. The fact the wheel dumped him unexpectedly can only mean a cut-out due to some defect, and wheel cannot be trusted.

Abrams is currently a flawed wheel.

I hit larger bumps on my Sherman going 65km/h and no issues. It beeps, at least, before I push my luck further.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Mango

[Denny Paul]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

Wheel contacts for a fraction of a second, so I don’t buy this argument.

Those covers can be as slick as ice if they’re coated in a fine dust. Breaking traction can happen in an instant. If you’ve got body weight committed forward already, and if you don’t make adjustments quickly, you’re gonna hit the ground. If you don’t buy it, fine, agree to disagree. Find out on your own time.

11 hours ago, Mango said:

Wrong Way is an experienced rider, so I think he knows full well how a one wheel device reacts to various road conditions. The fact the wheel dumped him unexpectedly can only mean a cut-out due to some defect, and wheel cannot be trusted.

I think you’re placing too much stock in one dude. Even he doesn’t pretend to to know everything; he’s a humble guy. He says what he thinks happen as best as he can, but it’s subject to being biased or even incorrect just as any opinion out there is. He’s an influencer.

All said, I still concluded with my first post I think wrongway’s cut out was a genuine cut out. I still think that’s the most probable explanation.

I’m not trusting the Abrams anytime soon either; I just think it worthwhile to explore other possibilities instead of jumping to conclusions with trusting solely that “Adam said so.”

Edited March 24, 2022 by Denny Paul

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

Breaking traction can happen in an instant.

I’d like to take part in the discussion of traction. There are a few aspects that make him slipping practically impossible:

- He was riding at around 50km/h. He reached the other side of the manhole cover in about 0.03 seconds. That’s not enough time for a working wheel to tilt forward enough to cause a cut out.

- If you have ever tried to tilt any EUC forward or backwards in the air, you’ll know that the opposing forces of the accelerating motor are huge. Even tilting a small 16S forwards in the air during the acceleration takes a strong man to do so. Even if the friction is completely lost, this force is still fighting against the wheel tilting forward, so the event is very different from a cut out.

- The only times I’ve seen an EUC tilt forward due to lack of grip are when they stop behind a slippery obstacle at very slow speeds. Even when riding on wet ice, you’d have to truly try to make it lose traction forward. At 50km/h even moreso. Sideways (while turning) is a completely different matter though.

12 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

If you don’t buy it, fine, agree to disagree.

I’d love to hear if you’ve ever seen or experienced an EUC lose traction in a straight line.

 

12 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

All said, I still concluded with my first post I think wrongway’s cut out was a genuine cut out. I still think that’s the most probable explanation.

I agree. The wheel seems to have an issue.

[Tasku]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’d love to hear if you’ve ever seen or experienced an EUC lose traction in a straight line.

I lost traction. Here what happened to me. (different device tho)

I was traveling downhill on snowy surface. I lost traction at speed  25 km/h (max 40 km/h) on my estimate. Because of the speed, the forward momentum carries over and the wheel was during that time somewhat sideways facing forward. As soon as the traction hit on surface I gained control of the wheel. No fall, but nice adrealine rush.

As result the wheel slided for 0.5-1.5 meters sideways. The motor worked hard to spin the wheel below. Should one hit such ice spot in low speed the wheel would have simply slided out of the way, but not with the momentun that carried me forward.

---------

I think just like Adam said in the video: the motor temperaryly demanded too much from battery as it hitted the bumb. Hsiang fell into very similar situation with V11, bumb on the road and horrible crash. The bumbs do not look horribly big but the speed is often closer to top performance in these cases (yet not peak performance). I often see these bumbs demand for power when I check my logs. Where as most of the time all goes well, sometimes even the smallest bumb can surprise you totally. This is something I been following, the safety margin, you should leave some. The high capacity batterys do not always give enough amps should you need some.

This opens the dialog that are the higher speeds that safe even they report it possible. But surely most knew there was this kind of possibility even rare occasion. I do not know if this is much of a problem with the wheels that have better performance, on em batterys able giving more than motors can even request. Only try those max speeds on where you are absolutely certain the road is totally even and in perfect condition. Even a small bumb (with higher speed) can be big demand from motor in temporary manner. 

Anycase beware of the extreme power demand of bumb on a road when going top speeds. There are electric motorcycles for fast speed demons, even tho I would still go for EUC in my use (not being a speed demon), just my 2cents.

(Writer here has rules of use the device in cycling lane and only to use drivinglane if no cycling lane present.)
 

[Denny Paul]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I agree. The wheel seems to have an issue.

I’m going to focus on this and let bygones be bygones at this point. We all think the Abrams is faulty in its current state. That’s the relevant part for this topic. 

I’m going to continue to avoid manhole covers, tram rails, and anything else metal when there’s signs of dust or rain. I will continue to advise people to do the same if they ask me about it, but it’s not a personal crusade of mine that I’m trying to force on anyone. You guys do whatever you think is best.