Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Treatz]

On 6/19/2021 at 1:52 AM, Skeptikos said:

Sure thing, @Treatz. Here's you making a ton of wild accusations on page 6. I guess you could define this post as criticism, but it's criticism designed to make people angry, as part of an angry mob. I would not label this post of yours as being "considerate".

A wild accusation is a claim that has no basis in reality.  The above is an example. According to this forum member, we’re not allowed to criticize unsafe riding behaviors if he doesn’t agree with it.

My purpose is to have a conversation about concern for the safety of others. That’s it. Nothing else. Skeptikos just did what he tried to say others do: made a wild accusation. 

Look at his manipulative wording:  He admits that my post on page 6 was criticism, but because he doesn’t like it he decides that my only reason for participating in this discussion is to make people angry. He’s not a mind reader, but he claims to speak for me. He is wrong, his intentions were dishonest, he attempted to damage my reputation and he should apologize.

That’s not even the worst of his insincerity when you take a closer look…

Skeptikos said very clearly to all of us here that he doesn’t care about this issue and doesn’t even think it exists. If there are no deaths, there is no danger—at least that seems to be his motto. If that’s not his position, I’d welcome his clarifications.

Here’s the joke:  It took him 35 pages to admit he doesn’t even care about this issue but that never stopped him, and others, from continuous hair-on-fire complaints that there’s “toxic mentality” and “wild accusations” and “angry mobs with pitchforks” and “bullying” and blah blah blah when he never even was here to discuss the issue in good faith with us.

Skeptikos never seemed to be here to discuss this issue in good faith. Period. But, that won’t stop him from making blanket, unfounded accusations against members of this forum.

The real story of this thread is this: we aren’t allowed to talk about the issue of concern for the safety of others.

According to Skeptikos, we didn’t see what we saw, folks. And if we saw it, we are silly for being concerned about it. That’s the game being played and we all know it.

When you ask them to state their opinion on the matter, they get testy and dodgey…posting memes of women yawning when you ask them to simply state their opinion on the actual topic.

Here, I’ll give you another demonstration:  Skeptikos, accuses me of making “a ton of wild accusations.”  He cannot point to a single one of my criticisms that’s not grounded in reality. He won’t be able to do it, but neither will he apologize for his wild accusation either. He pulled this before when he attempted to smear me with his “toxic mentality” accusation. Then he disappeared without defending that accusation. Now he’s back making more accusations. How does anyone converse with people like this?

Is it a surprise that those who advocate for rude riding are the same ones using these kinds of debate tactics.

They make wild accusations and then accuse others of making wild accusations.

The consideration for the safety of others is a no-brainer. It’s not controversial. It’s not an attempt to take away anyone’s rights. It’s meant to protect peoples’ rights to safety. Who needs a 275 pound projectile hurling down the street when someone crossing the street can get seriously hurt (or worse)?

Look at Skeptikos logic:  That little girl was centimeters from getting run through so don’t even worry about it. None of this is any concern for him so it shouldn’t be of any concern to any of us. That’s his position, or else he can clarify further. I’m just going by his own words—as I’ve done the entire time. But no, he’s the victim here. We’re not the ones being antagonized by these head games. It’s us victimizing Skeptikos with our concern for safety of others. That’s what he’d have us believe and it’s exactly as absurd as it sounds.

Whatever their reasons, they are not here to discuss the topic, but they won’t come out and say it. 

I have to conclude, and Skeptikos’ admission helps: Their purpose is to keep us from discussing this topic. 

With all these slippery people coming in here to keep us from talking about concern for the safety of others, I’m trying to provide a little grip tape for reality.

 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 minute ago, Treatz said:

A wild accusation is a claim that has no basis in reality.  The above is an example. According to this forum member, we’re not allowed to criticize unsafe riding behaviors if he doesn’t agree with it.

My purpose is to have a conversation about concern for the safety of others. That’s it. Nothing else. Skeptikos just did what he tried to say others do: made a wild accusation. 

Look at his manipulative wording:  He admits that my post on page 6 was criticism, but because he doesn’t like it he decides that my only reason for participating in this discussion is to make people angry. He’s not a mind reader, but he claims to speak for me. He is wrong, his intentions were dishonest, he attempted to damage my reputation and he should apologize.

That’s not even the worst of his insincerity when you take a closer look…

Skeptikos said very clearly to all of us here that he doesn’t care about this issue and doesn’t even think it exists. If there are no deaths, there is no danger—at least that seems to be his motto. If that’s not his position, I’d welcome his clarifications.

Here’s the joke:  It took him 35 pages to admit he doesn’t even care about this issue but that never stopped him, and others, from continuous hair-on-fire complaints that there’s “toxic mentality” and “wild accusations” and “angry mobs with pitchforks” and “bullying” and blah blah blah when he never even was here to discuss the issue in good faith with us.

Skeptikos never seemed to be here to discuss this issue in good faith. Period. But, that won’t stop him from making blanket, unfounded accusations against members of this forum.

The real story of this thread is this: we aren’t allowed to talk about the issue of concern for the safety of others.

According to Skeptikos, we didn’t see what we saw, folks. And if we saw it, we are silly for being concerned about it. That’s the game being played and we all know it.

When you ask them to state their opinion on the matter, they get testy and dodgey…posting memes of women yawning when you ask them to simply state their opinion on the actual topic.

Here, I’ll give you another demonstration:  Skeptikos, accuses me of making “a ton of wild accusations.”  He cannot point to a single one of my criticisms that’s not grounded in reality. He won’t be able to do it, but neither will he apologize for his wild accusation either. He pulled this before when he attempted to smear me with his “toxic mentality” accusation. Then he disappeared without defending that accusation. Now he’s back making more accusations. How does anyone converse with people like this?

Is it a surprise that those who advocate for rude riding are the same ones using these kinds of debate tactics.

They make wild accusations and then accuse others of making wild accusations.

The consideration for the safety of others is a no-brainer. It’s not controversial. It’s not an attempt to take away anyone’s rights. It’s meant to protect peoples’ rights to safety. Who needs a 275 pound projectile hurling down the street when someone crossing the street can get seriously hurt (or worse)?

Look at Skeptikos logic:  That little girl was centimeters from getting run through so don’t even worry about it. None of this is any concern for him so it shouldn’t be of any concern to any of us. That’s his position, or else he can clarify further. I’m just going by his own words—as I’ve done the entire time. But no, he’s the victim here. We’re not the ones being antagonized by these head games. It’s us victimizing Skeptikos with our concern for safety of others. That’s what he’d have us believe and it’s exactly as absurd as it sounds.

Whatever their reasons, they are not here to discuss the topic, but they won’t come out and say it. 

I have to conclude, and Skeptikos’ admission helps: Their purpose is to keep us from discussing this topic. 

With all these slippery people coming in here to keep us from talking about concern for the safety of others, I’m trying to provide a little grip tape for reality.

 

 

@Skeptikos line of thought is extremely worrying. I've seen it a lot in the younger generation. It's the "Nothing happened so, hey, I don't give a damn". But then it happens, and a kid, mother or senior citizen dies, when hit by an idiot on a PEV. Ant the sh*t hits the fan and spreads to all of us. The only rule of Tru democracy is founded on one simple principle: My freedom ends, when it steps on someone else's freedom.

I believe that @Skeptikos doesn't understand this pillar of proper citizenship and civility. 

[Menace]

10 hours ago, gon2fast said:

I think it is time to be honest. I have ridden my wheels like a jerk.

 

7 hours ago, Planemo said:

While we are being honest, so have I.

I think most of us have. I have for sure, and I feel bad about it from time to time. I ride respectfully around pedestrians and bicycles, but I sometimes start to let it slip a bit when its just cars because I'm not really endangering anyone but myself.

[Eucner]

13 minutes ago, Menace said:

I'm not really endangering anyone but myself.

You really are not alone in this world. Physical damage to you is only one aspect. If you get severely injured or killed, the one who ran over you could quite likely put blame on it himself or herself. Maybe he can't sleep at nights or will be too afraid to drive anymore. He also might get depressed, loose a job, end to a divorce or make a suicide. You never know how that incident would change his life and lives of people close to him. And how about people close to you. Wouldn't losing you hurt them ?

[Flying W]

@Paulo Mesquita thoughts and prayers for your daughter from across the 🌎.

[Paulo Mesquita]

12 minutes ago, Flying W said:

@Paulo Mesquita thoughts and prayers for your daughter from across the 🌎.

Thanks mate

[Menace]

2 hours ago, Eucner said:

You really are not alone in this world

-Did you not read the first part of my post? I literally said that I ride respectfully around pedestrians and bikes, which shows that I recognize I am not alone in this world. If I get hit by a car that's not endangering the driver. Sure he may feel terrible even if it's not his fault, but that's not life or even injury threatening. People will always find ways to blame themselves for things that aren't their faults, that's true for everything with big consequences. 

-As I already said, I feel bad about it. I'm not proud of it and I've been working on improving. The point was that we were supposed to be honest, I'd be lying if I pretended I was always a perfect EUC rider. You act like you've never sped or pulled out in front of someone or done anything involving risks at all.

-Lets not pretend that cars respect us either. They tailgate me, pass me with way to little room, shove in front of me, and endanger me and other road users by texting and driving (Not all cars do this and then I don't act like a jerk either). The world isn't peachy perfect.

-Sometimes you are forced to do something even riskier in order to avoid a problem that arose from taking a smaller risk. This is why I don't take any risks with pedestrians and bikes.

-I respect you for your views, but I think you are exaggerating a bit with what might happen to the driver.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Menace
word choice

[Menace]

@Paulo MesquitaI'm sorry to hear about your daughter, I wish her a speedy recovery.

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I'm having a bad day... my daughter tested positive for covid today

Despite me being off topic, I take my chances and the penalty. 

I do hope the goes as good as it possible can. It is one of those things you think happens to the neighbor. But sometimes the live behind the wrong door. 

Now I don't pray, but my thought are with you @Paulo Mesquita.

Now when we ride wheels, we never think we will be in an accident but they happens, for different reasons. 

I just hope at some point fellow rides will consider what safety margin they take risks and more importantly put others at risk.

Now should someone do something stupid, I hope people wouldn't share this as some love that shocking news fame way too much for us to give it to them. 

Yes I am pretty sure most of us have had incidents that reflected upon could had been handled better. But the important part is to reflect, learn and not repeat the same mistake. 

I think this will be my last comment on this thread. 

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, Menace said:

-Did you not read the first part of my post? I literally said that I ride respectfully around pedestrians and bikes, which shows that I recognize I am not alone in this world. If I get hit by a car that's not endangering the driver. Sure he may feel terrible even if it's not his fault, but that's not life or even injury threatening. People will always find ways to blame themselves for things that aren't their faults, that's true for everything with big consequences. 

-As I already said, I feel bad about it. I'm not proud of it and I've been working on improving. The point was that we were supposed to be honest, I'd be lying if I pretended I was always a perfect EUC rider. You act like you've never sped or pulled out in front of someone or done anything involving risks at all.

-Lets not pretend that cars respect us either. They tailgate me, pass me with way to little room, shove in front of me, and endanger me and other road users by texting and driving (Not all cars do this and then I don't act like a jerk either). The world isn't peachy perfect.

-Sometimes you are forced to do something even riskier in order to avoid a problem that arose from taking a smaller risk. This is why I don't take any risks with pedestrians and bikes.

-I respect you for your views, but I think you are exaggerating a bit with what might happen to the driver.

I was very pleased to read you taking care of other people in traffic. Unfortunately it was still lacking few aspects. There has been several cases people committing suicides by speeding car against heavy truck. It is easy to reason truck drivers total innocence. Still they have had severe and long lasting mental problems causing difficulties to continue in their job. Mental things are not just something people can always control with their mind. They have causes and consequences. In our case, there is no traffic rule allowing to run over people. If they do, they have done something wrong, like tailgating. Even thought it might not have been the main cause for the accident, the most normal people would take such a situation very deeply. You really can't know how severe the consequences shall be, because it is not your life, it is theirs life. They might be mentally fragile.

You skipped the question of people close to you.

I've done my part of stupidity, when I was young. Luckily doctors have been able to put me back together every time. With EUC, I have never put anybody into a danger, not even myself.

[Paul A]

Lisa Banes passed away on June 14, 2021.

 

Twenty five days after her highly publicized death, July 9, 2021, a video was posted.

Video titled:

Aggressive EUC Riding in NYC streets.

 

 

 

High speeding through red light at pedestrian crossing.

Approaching car in 20mph street.  Clear bike lane on right.  Double parallel lines dividing road.

Speeding, passing car on wrong side of road, into oncoming cars.

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Lisa Banes passed away on June 14, 2021.

 

Twenty five days after her highly publicized death, July 9, 2021, a video was posted.

Video titled:

Aggressive EUC Riding in NYC streets.

 

 

 

High speeding through red light at pedestrian crossing.

Approaching car in 20mph street.  Clear bike lane on right.  Double parallel lines dividing road.

Speeding, passing car on wrong side of road, into oncoming cars.

 

These kind of EUC riders are the ones that will eventually screw us, when laws come out and sweep us all into the same bin. Wait and see. 

[gon2fast]

12 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I'm just worried about my daughter

I had to take my Daughter in for Covid testing on Thursday. It was a very difficult situation to manage, I feel for you. Wishing your Daughter a quick recovery.

[Menace]

5 hours ago, Eucner said:

I was very pleased to read you taking care of other people in traffic. Unfortunately it was still lacking few aspects. There has been several cases people committing suicides by speeding car against heavy truck. It is easy to reason truck drivers total innocence. Still they have had severe and long lasting mental problems causing difficulties to continue in their job. Mental things are not just something people can always control with their mind. They have causes and consequences. In our case, there is no traffic rule allowing to run over people. If they do, they have done something wrong, like tailgating. Even thought it might not have been the main cause for the accident, the most normal people would take such a situation very deeply. You really can't know how severe the consequences shall be, because it is not your life, it is theirs life. They might be mentally fragile.

You skipped the question of people close to you.

I've done my part of stupidity, when I was young. Luckily doctors have been able to put me back together every time. With EUC, I have never put anybody into a danger, not even myself.

You have a good point, your evidence is hard to argue with. I probably need to reassess my definition of danger to cars. It is just really easy to treat them as invincible things when I don't see a person or a direct way they could be harmed. I definitely don't ride like the people in that above video, but I have done a few things that are unnecessarily risky, so I definitely have room for improvement.

-I didn't address the question about people close to me because I agreed with you, they would be harmed at least mentally. 

-I suppose I am in my young and stupid years though luckily I haven't had to be put back together yet.

-Anyways, I appreciate you looking out for me and other road users. 

Stay safe out there.

[Menace]

6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Lisa Banes passed away on June 14, 2021.

 

Twenty five days after her highly publicized death, July 9, 2021, a video was posted.

Video titled:

Aggressive EUC Riding in NYC streets.

High speeding through red light at pedestrian crossing.

Approaching car in 20mph street.  Clear bike lane on right.  Double parallel lines dividing road.

Speeding, passing car on wrong side of road, into oncoming cars

Yeesh. That was terrible riding, but looking at the bigger picture I don't think that PEVs are going to get banned. It is too late, there are too many PEVs out there and EUCs are likely to be lumped in with the rest of them. Personally I think that registration and a PEV license should be required for PEVs capable of over 40 km/h. I am hesitant to suggest insurance because it is such a scam. If it would be reasonably priced I would be all for it.

[Eucner]

2 hours ago, Menace said:

-I suppose I am in my young and stupid years though luckily I haven't had to be put back together yet.

Young me could have joined the alley cat race. It was only at about age I had my own kids when empathy was really developed. I've red studies finding this very typical for males. This might also be one reason for contradicting opinions in this thread.

[Paulo Mesquita]

5 hours ago, gon2fast said:

I had to take my Daughter in for Covid testing on Thursday. It was a very difficult situation to manage, I feel for you. Wishing your Daughter a quick recovery.

Yes it is. We all got our results today. She's positive (2nd test) and we're all negative. I hope your daughter is OK too. 

If she tests positive, get her 3 things that are outstanding for building he immune system:

Vitamin D 2200iu capsules (crucial) 

Zinc 50mg pills (reinforces) 

Cod Liver Oil capsules (better than the flu shot) 

She can take one of each per day. 

Doctor ask over the world are recommending this natural cocktail since September 2020. I started taking it 6 months before, rig at the beginning of Covid. 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

5 hours ago, Menace said:

Yeesh. That was terrible riding, but looking at the bigger picture I don't think that PEVs are going to get banned. It is too late, there are too many PEVs out there and EUCs are likely to be lumped in with the rest of them. Personally I think that registration and a PEV license should be required for PEVs capable of over 40 km/h. I am hesitant to suggest insurance because it is such a scam. If it would be reasonably priced I would be all for it.

I believe there will come a very hard period for PEV riders in the near future, due to the bad behavior of the rentals and some other idiots ( at least it's already starting in some EU countries), and later lte law will adjust, precisely because of what you said: the numbers are growing.... 

[CarlW]

On 6/18/2021 at 2:15 PM, winterwheel said:

Well congratulations everyone, you've succeeded in driving the top video guy we have out of the wheel video game. 

I guess his retirement is over?  I recall Clark Pads sponsored the event/video that sparked this discussion along with other companies.  In retrospect Ewheels stated they did not support the events that took place.  I wonder what Clark Pads position was?         

[.....]

1 minute ago, CarlW said:

I guess his retirement is over?  I recall Clark Pads sponsored the event/video that sparked this discussion along with other companies.  In retrospect Ewheels stated they did not support the events that took place.  I wonder what Clark Pads position was?         

SWEET! 20 more pages coming up.....

[conecones]

This might come off as apathetic/indifferent to human life, but for the intended audience (those why sympathize with the Alleycat racers), no amount of discussion, reasoning, or logic is going to sway them - the only meaningful way to change their mind may be that we simply need to see more deaths and these death(s) needs to be from that highly skilled group of riders. It's the only way the message will hit home. This selfish, fearless teenage (usually male) mentality should be familiar with most of us, and no amount of nagging from parent/authority figures is going to change anything - in fact it reinforces their want to rebel. Instead, real consequences need to be experienced first hand.

Although I wouldn't put too much thought into worrying about a small group of riders somehow screwing everyone else, because PEV's are the future and the governments can't stop it because more and more PEV companies are forming and people are investing in these devices - ultimately money talks. Once the EUC patents expire in the US, we should be seeing EUC and EUC-like devices become much more mainstream.

[winterwheel]

Awesome news! If the Clark connection is real I'll be recommending them to everyone, all the time. Not hard to do, many of the group here are already running Clark stuff. I don't use power pads, but my suspension wheels -- the EX and the S18 -- are both sitting on stands from Clark. Quality and workmanship are really, really good.

[winterwheel]

Here's the link to the video for those who want to have a look: 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

10 minutes ago, conecones said:

This might come off as apathetic/indifferent to human life, but for the intended audience (those why sympathize with the Alleycat racers), no amount of discussion, reasoning, or logic is going to sway them - the only meaningful way to change their mind may be that we simply need to see more deaths and these death(s) needs to be from that highly skilled group of riders. It's the only way the message will hit home. This selfish, fearless teenage (usually male) mentality should be familiar with most of us, and no amount of nagging from parent/authority figures is going to change anything - in fact it reinforces their want to rebel. Instead, real consequences need to be experienced first hand.

Although I wouldn't put too much thought into worrying about a small group of riders somehow screwing everyone else, because PEV's are the future and the governments can't stop it because more and more PEV companies are forming and people are investing in these devices - ultimately money talks. Once the EUC patents expire in the US, we should be seeing EUC and EUC-like devices become much more mainstream.

Makes sense. My worries over here in Europe, is that it takes only one innocent death due to PEV riders, to make politicians jump up and draft radical anti PEV laws... 

[conecones]

18 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

Makes sense. My worries over here in Europe, is that it takes only one innocent death due to PEV riders, to make politicians jump up and draft radical anti PEV laws... 

Your worry is more a problem with the local government, and less about how a group of EUC riders behave in another country... I understand the politics are a little different over in Europe but if for example Canada put an enforced ban on PEV's and the politicians try to use the example of a group of idiot riders in another country as justification, or one local idiot rider causing damage/death, we will be directing our anger at the government instead and writing letters and protesting in the streets for this kind of lazy policy making. There's going to be idiots in any activity and governments need to be held accountable to make the proper policies that actually benefit society.