Incredibly bad look for this community.

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Sumako said:

Y’all get upset when a NYC rider pops in here and, unfortunately, rudely, tells you; “you don’t get it”. They’re right, you don’t. Therefor you should not be judging their riding culture over some senseless fear that their action will impact your ride. It’s stupid!

Don’t you see the irony in that you say how “we” shouldn’t judge the NYC riding culture because “we” just “don’t get it”, while in the very same sentence you judge “us” for having a fear of our lawmakers’ decision making process based on having lived in our culture for our whole lives?

[shellac]

13 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

I think guns in america are just a tool, the underlying problem is more of a cultural problem than a gun problem one, this is one of the negatives of such high individualism. 

I agree it is just a tool but it’s misleading to blame “culture”. The gradual increase in violence, school shootings, etc over the years is due to social problems, that is to say obscene levels of inequality, people precariously living on the edge of disaster, and lack of access to mental health resources for this very stressful modern existence. Only those who are relatively well off can afford good regular mental healthcare here. 

I am in general OK with a society having guns, if it’s what the population really wants, but I’m not OK with Americans having guns in their current social situation. The Swiss have guns and are fine. I think if Sweden had guns they’d be OK too. The difference is those countries don’t have the severe societal problems the US does. Guns are a privilege and I think we need to get our house in order first.

 

13 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

Like I said, I trend towards the very liberal side but I always find it funny that many of the people who are most outspoken against cops and cops abusing their power (look at this whole past year with the black lives matter movement), the ones who go around saying the police are horribly corrupt(I agree to a point), ACAB(I disagree with), all cops should be defunded(I disagree with) are the same people who want to take away the 2nd amendment rights or severely limit them.

Yeah I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. The most vehemently anti-police on the left are the anarchists, and the ACAB slogan, defund the police, etc  comes from them. They are most definitely pro-guns. I would suggest you look up John Brown Gun Club, Redneck Revolt, Socialist Rifle Association and such groups which have had rising membership.

The ones who want to ban guns are the centrists, and they’re the same who want minor piddling police reforms, not more radical change, which is what I personally think is needed to fix the system. 

Sorry for the tangent, felt I had to respond to the post. 

[Paul A]

Concern for a child nearly killed.

Look at her face.

 

 

Concerns for EUC bans are secondary.

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

2 hours ago, shellac said:

I agree it is just a tool but it’s misleading to blame “culture”. The gradual increase in violence, school shootings, etc over the years is due to social problems, that is to say obscene levels of inequality, people precariously living on the edge of disaster, and lack of access to mental health resources for this very stressful modern existence. Only those who are relatively well off can afford good regular mental healthcare here. 

I am in general OK with a society having guns, if it’s what the population really wants, but I’m not OK with Americans having guns in their current social situation. The Swiss have guns and are fine. I think if Sweden had guns they’d be OK too. The difference is those countries don’t have the severe societal problems the US does. Guns are a privilege and I think we need to get our house in order first.

 

Yeah I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. The most vehemently anti-police on the left are the anarchists, and the ACAB slogan, defund the police, etc  comes from them. They are most definitely pro-guns. I would suggest you look up John Brown Gun Club, Redneck Revolt, Socialist Rifle Association and such groups which have had rising membership.

The ones who want to ban guns are the centrists, and they’re the same who want minor piddling police reforms, not more radical change, which is what I personally think is needed to fix the system. 

Sorry for the tangent, felt I had to respond to the post. 

I actually like your comparison with the Swiss and Swedes. That show your point of view quite clearly, as to cultural differences and societies stability levels. 

All the groups you mention only reenforces my fear of am eminent social disrupture in the US. 

And to clear um my previous intervention, I don't see a problem with the liberal usage of normal self  defense gun, or hunting gun ownership. 

What bothers me is the easyness of access to semi automatic war rifles (M15), Usi michine guns, etc, to every Tom Dick and Harry. 

I remember Columbine, where two underage kids bought war semi automatic rifles through the mail... and did what they did. 

Although I'm not a fan of the NRA, I agree with their statement : guns don't kill people. People kill people. 

In the US, in just 18 weeks, they're were already 194 mass shootings. 

Something is got to wrong somewhere... 

3 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Concern for a child nearly killed.

Look at her face.

 

 

Concerns for EUC bans are secondary.

 

The child is terrified!!! 

[Paul A]

Events in one country can extend to other countries ranging from small ripple effects to large reverberations.

 

Death of George Floyyd amongst many others.

World wide Black Lives Matter movement.

 

Sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Larry Nassar, Catholic Church, Boy Scouts, etc. 

Me Too movement.

 

Claims of voter fraud in USA November 3, 2020 elections.

General elections were held in Myanmar on 8 November 2020

Military coup in Myanmar, 1 February 2021.

Aung San Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy (NLD) won a landslide victory with more than 80% of the seats at stake.

 

 

https://www.legalsecretaryjournal.com/influences-in-law-making

United Kingdom.  Influences on Parliamentary Law-Making

The Media

One final influence that affects the creation of new laws is the one you most likely already know about: the media and pressure groups. When you read an article in the newspaper or hear a news story on the TV, you are potentially influencing the laws that may be made in the future. Your interest in a news story is something that politicians sometimes take notice of. If there is a public outcry over an issue, the public (you) may demand a change in the law. In recent years, examples of where this has happened include:

• The Dangerous Dogs Act, following the death of several small children savaged by dogs
• The formation of the sex offenders register, following the tragic death of a child at the hands of a paedophile
• The ban on smoking in public places following years of lobbying by pressure groups such as the British Medical Association

 As you may now see, the development of the law in this country is influenced by many different bodies. Next time you hear the news or read a newspaper article announcing the creation of a new law, you may be able to pause and consider who is actually behind the idea in the first place.

[Paul A]

The argument of the NRA:

Guns don't kill, people kill people.

 

A person without a gun is less capable of killing a lot of people easily.

Would it make sense to allow the general public to have hand grenades, land mines, sarin gas, rocket propelled grenades etc......because they don't kill people, people kill people.

[.....]

23 minutes ago, Paul A said:

The argument of the NRA:

Guns don't kill, people kill people.

 

A person without a gun is less capable of killing a lot of people easily.

Would it make sense to allow the general public to have hand grenades, land mines, sarin gas, rocket propelled grenades etc......because they don't kill people, people kill people.

Where theres a will theres a way. You cant take knowledge and build ability from people. Our public DOES have access to things like you mention. Every farmer in my hood can easily build a device that could level acres in mere moments. Odd, you dont hear it happening tho! You may have to put some parts togehter, but the reality is... its a person's intent that is the driving force, not the lack of availablilty of a specific item. Guns, knives, hammers, chainsaws, cars, are all tools. Its not the tool that is the problem. Its a valid point that if yuo make killing harder to do with a simple device, the cases of random killings in the heat of the moment would probably lessen. Of course, if someone PLANS at all, a society of people who are not readily armed, will fall victim in masse'. Its too late to get ALL the guns out of the usa. Trying to do so, will only disarm the people who will use that tool to help maintain order. I have faith in most of my fellow man. I feel safer when I know that there are a lot of good people around who have the ability to help maintain order. Yes, it comes at a price of elevated danger from criminals, but the risk of that event continuing unhampered is much less. The WORST thing you could do, is find yourself in a bad situation and be the only one with no means of defense. Regardless of job title and posistion of authority, we are all human in the end. Its a folley to NOT protect yourself against the reality that sometimes the very people you trust, could become a threat.

*This aint a derail as the train has been rolling multiple tracks for a while now. One must admit, THIS thread has seen a lot of traffic. Maybe it needs renamed soon. WE should put it in the 'pub' section...

Edited July 27, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Paul A]

Hello Shane, can understand your viewpoints of:

people with intent can just find other ways regardless

with so many guns in the USA, it is impossible to remove them

the necessary arms race if others are armed

the history of westward pioneers

guns ingrained into the psyche

suspicion and lack of trust in government extending back to the War of Independence, the Founding Fathers and the second amendment to the Constitution.

 

Perhaps a strategy to combat mass killings, crime, violence is not addressing the symptoms with gun control, tougher law enforcement, more guns, etc.

Causes for people to act violently may have been seeded many years prior and accumulated to when the act takes place.

Education, inequalities, great disparities in wealth distribution, racism, divisions in society, bullying in schools (Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech).......a lot of other possible speculated factors.

 

With crime.

It seems strange that in the world's richest country, the minimum wage is $7.25ph.  This is in nominal terms. 

A Big Mac is sometimes used to give an indication of the cost in real terms.  A Big Mac in the USA is $3.99.

$3.99/$7.25 x 60mins = 33 mins.

A person on minimum wage needs to work 33 mins to buy a Big Mac. 

Would actually need to work more because of tax.

People in other countries can make comparisons of standard of living in real terms by using other things besides a Big Mac.

 

Crime might be largely driven by huge disparities of wealth sharing between the Haves and Have Nots.

 

 

 

 

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

Events in one country can extend to other countries ranging from small ripple effects to large reverberations.

 

Death of George Floyyd amongst many others.

World wide Black Lives Matter movement.

 

Sexual abuse by Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Larry Nassar, Catholic Church, Boy Scouts, etc. 

Me Too movement.

 

Claims of voter fraud in USA November 3, 2020 elections.

General elections were held in Myanmar on 8 November 2020

Military coup in Myanmar, 1 February 2021.

Aung San Suu Kyi's National League for Democracy (NLD) won a landslide victory with more than 80% of the seats at stake.

 

 

https://www.legalsecretaryjournal.com/influences-in-law-making

United Kingdom.  Influences on Parliamentary Law-Making

The Media

One final influence that affects the creation of new laws is the one you most likely already know about: the media and pressure groups. When you read an article in the newspaper or hear a news story on the TV, you are potentially influencing the laws that may be made in the future. Your interest in a news story is something that politicians sometimes take notice of. If there is a public outcry over an issue, the public (you) may demand a change in the law. In recent years, examples of where this has happened include:

• The Dangerous Dogs Act, following the death of several small children savaged by dogs
• The formation of the sex offenders register, following the tragic death of a child at the hands of a paedophile
• The ban on smoking in public places following years of lobbying by pressure groups such as the British Medical Association

 As you may now see, the development of the law in this country is influenced by many different bodies. Next time you hear the news or read a newspaper article announcing the creation of a new law, you may be able to pause and consider who is actually behind the idea in the first place.

Exactly. The world, through the massive online media... is now no bigger than a village, when it comes to influences, trends, and general news. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Where theres a will theres a way. You cant take knowledge and build ability from people. Our public DOES have access to things like you mention. Every farmer in my hood can easily build a device that could level acres in mere moments. Odd, you dont hear it happening tho! You may have to put some parts togehter, but the reality is... its a person's intent that is the driving force, not the lack of availablilty of a specific item. Guns, knives, hammers, chainsaws, cars, are all tools. Its not the tool that is the problem. Its a valid point that if yuo make killing harder to do with a simple device, the cases of random killings in the heat of the moment would probably lessen. Of course, if someone PLANS at all, a society of people who are not readily armed, will fall victim in masse'. Its too late to get ALL the guns out of the usa. Trying to do so, will only disarm the people who will use that tool to help maintain order. I have faith in most of my fellow man. I feel safer when I know that there are a lot of good people around who have the ability to help maintain order. Yes, it comes at a price of elevated danger from criminals, but the risk of that event continuing unhampered is much less. The WORST thing you could do, is find yourself in a bad situation and be the only one with no means of defense. Regardless of job title and posistion of authority, we are all human in the end. Its a folley to NOT protect yourself against the reality that sometimes the very people you trust, could become a threat.

*This aint a derail as the train has been rolling multiple tracks for a while now. One must admit, THIS thread has seen a lot of traffic. Maybe it needs renamed soon. WE should put it in the 'pub' section...

😊😊😊 @ShanesPlanet the main thing that worries me is that when many civilians need to feel safe having a gun at home to maintain, just in case there's some kind of danger or civil unrest... It doesn't say much about their confidence in their government's institutions ability to do the job.

There is however, a good reason for every civilian to have an arsenal at home: in case the walking dead really happen (sorry, I'm a die-hard fan and can't wait for the final season coming next August) 😂😂😂😂

[Tryptych]

6 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

but the risk of that event continuing unhampered is much less

Except that the "event" happens over and over, endlessly.  Horrible solution.

 

 

 

[.....]

8 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

😊😊😊 @ShanesPlanet the main thing that worries me is that when many civilians need to feel safe having a gun at home to maintain, just in case there's some kind of danger or civil unrest... It doesn't say much about their confidence in their government's institutions ability to do the job.

There is however, a good reason for every civilian to have an arsenal at home: in case the walking dead really happen (sorry, I'm a die-hard fan and can't wait for the final season coming next August) 😂😂😂😂

It worries me when people don't feel they need protect themselves and would prefer to place absolute trust in another man to do so. Humans are the problem and the solution. How can you feel so confident the right ones are in the right poisitions of power over you? It's MY job to try and look out for my family and their best intersts, this includes being prepared as much as possible for any events. FIre, flood, famine, climate, illness and invader. It would be very silly for me to entrust that to a random agency. Especially since the call time for an agency representative is at least 30-45minutes for my area and many others like mine. .  If I'm unarmed and someone shows up at my door, am I to simply convince them that a person 45 minutes away is gna stop them from catering to their desire to rob or hurt me or my family? Does this all protecting agency also have a magic ability to curb insanity and the random mentally unstable individual? It must be nice to not worry about your own safety, as everyone is just so darn nice and big daddy will make it all go away

Yup, we live in totally different points of view. And yes, it is tiring and a responsibility to assume one must defend themselves(and others), very tiring depending on loacation. I'll tell you this. If you run down the street yelling help, you may find comfort that the good people of my neighborhood are prepared to do so. MOST gun owners are simply wishing to prevent harm and protect their communities, not the other way around.

Edited July 28, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[gon2fast]

We are on firearms now, wow. Someone ping me when we get to Bigfoot LOL. 

I kid, sorry, but this is getting silly.

[.....]

19 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

We are on firearms now, wow. Someone ping me when we get to Bigfoot LOL. 

I kid, sorry, but this is getting silly.

Getting? Where have you been, we done circled silly about three rounds of angry ago. Still not even halfway there. I guess I'll just have to go away for a while and check back later. Where are the people filming wreckless stuff when we REALLY need them?

[gon2fast]

 

We are under attack as we bicker amongst ourselves.

- Park Rangers are kicking us out

- Police Officers in my area are saying that my wheels are not legal for street usage

- pedestrians who associate us with hoverboards...

FOLKS, TIME TO PUT THE PAST IN THE BOOKS AND COME TOGETHER BEFORE WE LOSE IT ALL. Please reference PEVRA. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

It worries me when people don't feel they need protect themselves and would prefer to place absolute trust in another man to do so. Humans are the problem and the solution. How can you feel so confident the right ones are in the right poisitions of power over you? It's MY job to try and look out for my family and their best intersts, this includes being prepared as much as possible for any events. FIre, flood, famine, climate, illness and invader. It would be very silly for me to entrust that to a random agency. Especially since the call time for an agency representative is at least 30-45minutes for my area and many others like mine. .  If I'm unarmed and someone shows up at my door, am I to simply convince them that a person 45 minutes away is gna stop them from catering to their desire to rob or hurt me or my family? Does this all protecting agency also have a magic ability to curb insanity and the random mentally unstable individual? It must be nice to not worry about your own safety, as everyone is just so darn nice and big daddy will make it all go away

Yup, we live in totally different points of view. And yes, it is tiring and a responsibility to assume one must defend themselves(and others), very tiring depending on loacation. I'll tell you this. If you run down the street yelling help, you may find comfort that the good people of my neighborhood are prepared to do so. MOST gun owners are simply wishing to prevent harm and protect their communities, not the other way around.

I'm absolutely sure that most gun owners have them as self protection tool and I'm also sure that your neighbors would run to your aid. It's the same here in Portugal with one difference: violence is extremely low in my country and almost no one has a gun. Portugal is one of the top 3 safest countries on the planet. Maybe because of this we feel so safe an have no need to buy a gun. 

But have no doubts. If I feel social unrest in my country I'll find a way to quickly get a weapon, hunting rifle, 22mm sport pistol, ax chainsaw, whatever.  But for now I'm quite satisfied with the ax I have in my wardrobe and the 12" gutting knife under my bed.

Maybe I'm lazy over here...but it feels good to feel  lazy in a safe country....

I don't know 

[Paul A]

Man arrested in hit-and-run that killed ‘Gone Girl’ actress Lisa Banes

 

https://nypost.com/2021/08/06/brian-boyd-arrested-for-nyc-hit-and-run-death-of-actress-lisa-banes/

[Paulo Mesquita]

6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Man arrested in hit-and-run that killed ‘Gone Girl’ actress Lisa Banes

 

https://nypost.com/2021/08/06/brian-boyd-arrested-for-nyc-hit-and-run-death-of-actress-lisa-banes/

Hopefully we'll never see one like this but with an EUC rider...

[winterwheel]

Media seem to be quietly backing away from the notion that she was hit by a scooter.

"Banes was hit by a scooter or motorcycle in early June while she was crossing a street on the way to her alma mater, the Julliard School. She was taken to a hospital where she died on July 14 at age 65."

"Banes suffered a deadly traumatic brain injury when she was hit by a red and black Fairthorpe motorcycle allegedly manned by Boyd on Amsterdam Avenue at West 64th Street."

"The 65-year-old was reportedly near the Lincoln Centre on her way to visit her old college Julliard when shew was hit by what was thought to be a scooter or motorbike."

 

[RockyTop]

I just looked up  Fairthorpe motorcycle. I found a strange little antique car that might classify as a motorcycle in the US because it would not meet a single safety standard. I found no motorcycle. I did find a Calthorpe motorcycle, also antique  ....... ?????   

[GothamMike]

On 7/28/2021 at 12:58 AM, gon2fast said:

We are on firearms now, wow. Someone ping me when we get to Bigfoot LOL. 

I kid, sorry, but this is getting silly.

If you are going to see a Bigfoot on a EUC, get out in the woods! Many Big Guy sightings by vehicle passengers and drivers.

[GothamMike]

On 7/27/2021 at 3:58 PM, Paul A said:

Hello Shane, can understand your viewpoints of:

people with intent can just find other ways regardless

with so many guns in the USA, it is impossible to remove them

the necessary arms race if others are armed

the history of westward pioneers

guns ingrained into the psyche

suspicion and lack of trust in government extending back to the War of Independence, the Founding Fathers and the second amendment to the Constitution.

 

Perhaps a strategy to combat mass killings, crime, violence is not addressing the symptoms with gun control, tougher law enforcement, more guns, etc.

Causes for people to act violently may have been seeded many years prior and accumulated to when the act takes place.

Education, inequalities, great disparities in wealth distribution, racism, divisions in society, bullying in schools (Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech).......a lot of other possible speculated factors.

 

With crime.

It seems strange that in the world's richest country, the minimum wage is $7.25ph.  This is in nominal terms. 

A Big Mac is sometimes used to give an indication of the cost in real terms.  A Big Mac in the USA is $3.99.

$3.99/$7.25 x 60mins = 33 mins.

A person on minimum wage needs to work 33 mins to buy a Big Mac. 

Would actually need to work more because of tax.

People in other countries can make comparisons of standard of living in real terms by using other things besides a Big Mac.

 

Crime might be largely driven by huge disparities of wealth sharing between the Haves and Have Nots.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's just say wealth is not a correlating factor of gun crimes. Time to move on.

[UniMe]

Interesting chat on the US gun issue.

I wish humans were more civilized, that we didn't murder each other, promote massive social inequality for our personal gain etc. But, we do.... my membership in this species has been a point of existential stress and confusion since my earliest memory.

Many years ago I had an epiphany, I had the social mobility and power to move away from situations where I felt threatened. I could avoid certain social situations and still have social connection, I moved to a clean neighborhood with an exceptionally low crime rate, sought a terminal degree etc. It's also when I abandoned 20 years of mixed martial arts training and started the process of deprogramming my thinking so I didn't automatically assess the threat level of every person (especially male) that I met. It was through a lot of hard work on my part, but also 100% the outcome of opportunities I experienced, that I was able to change my life and social situation.  

I can say with some certainty that if the social mobility I have achieved had not been possible, and I continued to be in a day to day situation where I felt threatened, I'd still be a physical wrecking machine and I might also choose to be armed. The opportunities I have had the good fortunate to make the most of in life are not lost on me.

I still have zero patience for people spouting off about physical and gun violence though... perhaps it's my early martial arts training. We were taught to be quite, to only use our skills for defense and that the less others knew about our capacity the more able we would be to resolve a situation if it came up. Chirping is contrary to all of this.

[RockyTop]

I was asked by my boss to stop at a job on my long drive home one Friday evening.  I was south of Atlanta Ga and heading back to Tennessee. (130 miles) I stopped at a hotel under construction to see if they would be ready for our construction guys Monday morning. There was a big mess in the yard and everyone had left for the day. ( truck loads of demolition debris) Our company had not been to the job yet. We were in no way responsible for the mess. The owner of the property came out and demanded that I personally cleaned the mess up. I told him that I had nothing to do with construction or the mess. He said that none of that mattered. He was a higher class and that I would follow his orders regardless. He said that he would call the cops and have me killed if I did not obey. ...............   I guess this might be true if I lived in that person’s country. I just got in my truck and drove off.

The US has a very mixed population. We are not all of the same mind. We do not come from the same up bringing. We do not all share the same moral and cultural rules. It is easy to judge the US when you live in a city of like minded people. Last year I sat in a restaurant and listened to a man at a neighboring table tell a young disheveled woman that in his country he would have killed her for talking back to him. He looked as if he was still thinking about killing her.  At least he understands that such killings are not acceptable here. The government is not protecting us from these people. 
 

What does a civilized person do when surrounded by uncivilized people? Just let them have their way? The police won’t do anything. 
The people out in the in the rural areas are very polite and civilized. You can leave your doors unlocked with valuables just sitting around.   Any guesses as to why? 

 

[Tawpie]

since this thread has slipped a little bit from topic already, I'll add a banana because... well, I still find this amusing. And it speaks to personal conduct (on topic), collective norms (on topic), and firearms (¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

I moved to Montana in the late 70s—a land where men are men and sheep run scared. Where you always stop to help when there's a car on the side of the road because there might not be another car by for a couple of days. Where all pickup trucks had gun racks in the back window (and I mean every single one). And most of those gun racks had guns in them. Always. Hunting season or not. Oh... most vehicles had the keys in the ignition because the key is for starting the car, why would it be anywhere else?

I asked a guy if he was worried if somebody would steal his rifle... he looked at me like I was a complete dumbass and said "why would anybody steal my gun"? That thought never entered his mind, it was no more a possibility than a child accidentally shooting their playmate.

40 years later, you can go to jail for failing to properly secure your firearm (in some jurisdictions, I don't know about Montana).

I guess if there's any value in sharing this it is that people, communities, times and mores change. What was once perfectly fine may be viewed as unconscionable in the future. What was once banned, may be accepted. Makes life interesting and discussions lively don't 'ya think?

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Tawpie