Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Skeptikos]

On 6/19/2021 at 1:58 AM, Skeptikos said:

People keep saying they were "criticizing" Mick. There is some of that in this thread but mostly it's not true. Instead of criticism we're seeing a mob being stirred up, and people lashing out (at Mick, his sponsors, NYC riders) with the intent of making their lives miserable.

Let's drop the silly euphemism "criticism" for this behavior. Starting a pile-on of harassment to get someone to take down a video is not criticism. If you're going to be a gigantic turd waffle on the internet in an attempt to enforce traffic norms, own it. Maybe you can find a logic to justify that, but don't ask us to pretend you're a morally superior "considerate" person afterward. You're just a jerk with a different excuse.

My kind of stupidly obvious recommendation is that people should extend the same consideration to their fellow EUC riders as they do to pedestrians. Yes, even if that rider makes a mistake and doesn't apologize as obsequiously as you would prefer. Consideration still applies when you step off the street.

Sorry guys, it was late and I was irritated when I posted this. I don't actually want to stir up drama here. I'm not retracting the comment because that's basically still my position (I like safety but I passionately dislike internet pile-ons), but that's all I'm going to post in this thread. Hope I didn't annoy anyone too much.

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

Sorry guys, it was late and I was irritated when I posted this. I don't actually want to stir up drama here. I'm not retracting the comment because that's basically still my position (I like safety but I passionately dislike internet pile-ons), but that's all I'm going to post in this thread. Hope I didn't annoy anyone too much.

II do agree with separating the waters between the internet pile ups and the real issue here. 

I for one, with the EU laws starting to come down, in certain countries, on EVs and their riders, I'm just worried that alike motorcycle riders bad behavior in the past in Portugal in the past ( my long lost youth) we all might "pay the bill" due to a few. 

Just my $0.2

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

Sorry guys, it was late and I was irritated when I posted this. I don't actually want to stir up drama here. I'm not retracting the comment because that's basically still my position (I like safety but I passionately dislike internet pile-ons), but that's all I'm going to post in this thread. Hope I didn't annoy anyone too much.

I think this is the problem of this thread. This is creating an unnecessary divide in the community for no good reason. The whole story is not represented here and there are too many overlapping topics. Discussing different ride cultures in this thread is not possible. 

The way I saw things happen was on multiple channels. People first reacted to the teaser video that seemed to glorify dangerous racing in public. But then came a secondary reaction to the bullying. I also reacted on various channels to the teaser video and got insults in response. I don't mind that and would have let it be. But what people saw in various channels was bullying. And that is not ok. I think the bad response Mickey got was only partly due to the content (and would have been forgotten with a small adjustment) and mostly to how Mickey and his friends responded to the comments. Their response was bullying. And when people see their fellow riders being bullied, they react. And I think that's good. 

The problem is that, without the complete picture, people end up defending the bully because of totally different arguments about riding cultures etc. Practically everyone here agrees racing should happen only in closed areas and it is good to consider safety of others in public traffic. There's very little to discuss there. Even the content of the video could be discussed and disagreed with in civil discussion. But this thread is past that already. 

I suggest we close down this thread and forget it. This doesn't do anything good to the community. While we should not tolerate bullying, I think (hope) the lesson was learned already. While I have not seen Mickey and the gang changing their attitude towards bullying, I think it is pretty clear to everyone that we keep the races out of public streets. It's just better for everyone in the EUC community. 

 

 

 

[Camenbert]

2 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

I'm just worried that alike motorcycle riders bad behavior in the past in Portugal in the past ( my long lost youth) we all might "pay the bill" due to a few. 

If this can be true, I believe the total number is more important than the few.

You can have 100% nice EUC riders, if there are a dozen, there will never be a legalization.
If there are thousand EUC riders, even with few aggressive riders, it's a different story.

Again France is the biggest EUC market in Europe, and the first country to legalize them. It's not a random.
And this despite 0% of EUC complies with the 25 kph limit (OK, maybe the V5F does), and despite the few we must have here too

Evx with his video hook much more new EUC users than anyone criticizing him.
This why he deserves respect, not that he is good guy (who care about personal judgment).

[Rawnei]

30 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I suggest we close down this thread and forget it. This doesn't do anything good to the community. While we should not tolerate bullying, I think (hope) the lesson was learned already. While I have not seen Mickey and the gang changing their attitude towards bullying, I think it is pretty clear to everyone that we keep the races out of public streets. It's just better for everyone in the EUC community.

I disagree about forgetting it though as there has been many good discussion points as well and it's been an important topic for many people to discuss and air their thoughts, but the thread has run it's course so perhaps locking it is a good idea.

[Leucistic]

36 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I disagree about forgetting it though as there has been many good discussion points as well and it's been an important topic for many people to discuss and air their thoughts, but the thread has run it's course so perhaps locking it is a good idea.

I think @UniVehje said there what was left to come closure aka dropped the mic. Let's now see if this water goes under the bridge. If not then pull the pin. We are evolving as community as our wheels are.

[winterwheel]

I'd be okay with the let's wrap of this thread idea if it wasn't wrapped in an associated conclusion that I totally disagree with. For me the idea of who was doing the bullying is completely backwards, an extreme case of projection. For me the 'community' has bullied one of its members to the point that he ended up dropping out. I recognize that the community is okay with this bullying because the bullying is done in support of a certain perspective.

If you want to wrap up this thread, maybe do that without adding 'mic-drop' conclusions and using the idea of closing the thread as a means of preventing any disagreement.

Edited June 22, 2021 by winterwheel

[jimjam.nyc]

lets start a thread on the closing of this thread.. We can then take action depending on the outcome of that thread! (im just kidding... )

I am All for closing this thread to be honest.. If people want to continue the discussion i think a new focused thread on specific topics would be better.. It will also force the distancing from the drama that was involved in this thread. 

 

 

[Treatz]

55 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I'd be okay with the let's wrap of this thread idea if it wasn't wrapped in an associated conclusion that I totally disagree with. For me the idea of who was doing the bullying is completely backwards, an extreme case of projection. For me the 'community' has bullied one of its members to the point that he ended up dropping out. I recognize that the community is okay with this bullying because the bullying is done in support of a certain perspective.

If you want to wrap up this thread, maybe do that without adding 'mic-drop' conclusions and using the idea of closing the thread as a means of preventing any disagreement.

Winterwheel, given your unassuaged insistence, even though everyone else seems to want to close this conversation, you should being a new thread where you name the bullying.

These are serious accusations you have repeatedly made and you seem sincere to me that bullying happened. It's not the people speeding on wheels near unsuspecting pedestrians that concerns you. It's the bulling that occurred right here on 16 pages of this forum in front of full view of...basically everyone.

Start your thread on bullying, name names, provide facts. This way, there won't mic drop without your approval. 

Thank you, in advance, for taking care of this.  

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, Camenbert said:

If this can be true, I believe the total number is more important than the few.

You can have 100% nice EUC riders, if there are a dozen, there will never be a legalization.
If there are thousand EUC riders, even with few aggressive riders, it's a different story.

Again France is the biggest EUC market in Europe, and the first country to legalize them. It's not a random.
And this despite 0% of EUC complies with the 25 kph limit (OK, maybe the V5F does), and despite the few we must have here too

Evx with his video hook much more new EUC users than anyone criticizing him.
This why he deserves respect, not that he is good guy (who care about personal judgment).

What you say about the numbers makes sense. However these are uncharted waters in many countries and if there's one thing I know about the media nowdays, is that it only takes one or two reckless accidents with an EUC to wipe out all the good image that hundreds of riders are passing. 

I'm not judging anyone at all. (actually I haven't even seen the video) I'm just worried because I know that bad news catch on like wildfire!!! 

I know that my riding behavior is going to draw negative attention if I don't respect everyone that crosses my path. That's why I can still pass police in my neighborhood,, say hi to them, and until now not one has stopped me....

[Camenbert]

3 minutes ago, Treatz said:

even though everyone else

euh.... no, not "everyone".

I personally dont get why some have to decide a topic must be close,
I guess it's in line with pointing who's "good" and who's "bad" for this "community"

Or is it because the emotions after this video start to fade away ?

[OldFartRides]

…or maybe because after much arguing, deflection, “whataboutism”, and general keyboard masturbation, it just gets to be pointless flogging of a dead horse, and nobody who’s mind is made up about the subject is going to be convinced one way or the other.

This little chapter in “The Days of Our Lives” is now history. New people to the forum can read it through and draw their own conclusions as to who is right, who is wrong, and what the middle ground may be.

People will argue til the cows come home, double and triple down on indefensible positions, try to “win” for the sake of “winning”, and not a thing gets “solved” here because this is a discussion forum, not a legislative one.

Best of everything to everyone, and keep the rubber side down !

 

 

[GoGeorgeGo]

I don't see why we need to close the thread personally. Ive stopped commenting one way or the other, but am still interested in hearing from the stragglers in the community who dont check the forumn every single day. Its easy enough to just stop reading it if your personally done with the topic

[PLEASE_DELETE]

3 hours ago, OldFartRides said:

…or maybe because after much arguing, deflection, “whataboutism”, and general keyboard masturbation, it just gets to be pointless flogging of a dead horse, and nobody who’s mind is made up about the subject is going to be convinced one way or the other.

This little chapter in “The Days of Our Lives” is now history. New people to the forum can read it through and draw their own conclusions as to who is right, who is wrong, and what the middle ground may be.

People will argue til the cows come home, double and triple down on indefensible positions, try to “win” for the sake of “winning”, and not a thing gets “solved” here because this is a discussion forum, not a legislative one.

Best of everything to everyone, and keep the rubber side down !

 

 

This is kinda why I try not to get too involved in forum discussions.  People just don't change their minds no matter what. I generally use the ignore/mute/block button on most forums liberally because of this.  With a full time job, on call 24/7, and a special needs child, I don't have time to deal with unpleasantness here.

Edited June 22, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I don't see why we need to close the thread personally

Me neither - most of the people proposing to close use this to give a last word/conclusio so it seems this will go on forever

[WILSONEUC]

Sorry, couldnt help it...

Edited June 22, 2021 by WILSON-YT

[Paul A]

Speedy Feet viewing and thoughts on the alley cat race, from time mark 32.40.

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

Speedy Feet viewing and thoughts on the alley cat race, from time mark 32.40.

 

I rest my case. The good thing is that this idiot won't be riding for long. And breathing either... 

[Paul A]

https://www.albanyny.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=218

April 14, 2021.

Albany, New York bans ATV's and Dirt Bikes.

ALBANY, NY – Mayor Kathy Sheehan joined Police Chief Eric Hawkins and Council members Richard Conti, Joyce Love, and Alfredo Balarin today to sign Local Law E of 2021, banning the use of ATVs and Dirt Bikes on public property including parks and increasing repossession fees, combined with illegal use fines, to $3,000 per violation.

Over the past several summers there has been a steady increase in ATVs and Dirt Bikes traveling across the City. Dirt bikes and ATVs have been witnessed driving through City parks and on sidewalks in front of Albany High School – putting young children and parents in danger – and these vehicles hit buses and injured both bystanders and police officers in just Spring 2021 alone. In an effort to deter this illegal activity, Mayor Sheehan, Chief Hawkins, and the City’s Corporation Counsel office led by Marisa Franchini worked with Councilmembers Conti, Love, and Balarin to draft and enact this legislation.

This legislation also allows the City of Albany to sell or destroy repossessed vehicles unclaimed after 60 days, and goes into effect immediately.

Albany Mayor Kathy Sheehan said, “These vehicles are loud, dangerous, negatively impact the quality of life in our neighborhoods, and are a menace to our community. The message today is clear: do not bring your ATV or Dirt Bike to the City of Albany, because you are not only putting our residents in danger, but it will cost you $3,000 to get it back.”

Albany Police Chief Eric Hawkins said, “The Albany Police Department remains committed to ensuring our community’s streets remain free of all-terrain vehicles and dirt bikes. As we have all witnessed, those who choose to operate these unregistered and uninsured vehicles on public roadways are a nuisance to the community and have no regard for the safety of motorists, pedestrians and our residents. We remain committed to this issue and will continue to arrest, issue traffic citations and confiscate the vehicles of those who participate in this reckless behavior.”

 

[Camenbert]

If they are after loud gas ATV or Dirt Bike in City (?!), really what a good news for EUCs !

 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

https://www.albanyny.gov/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=218

April 14, 2021.

Albany, New York bans ATV's and Dirt Bikes.

ALBANY, NY – Mayor Kathy Sheehan joined Police Chief Eric Hawkins and Council members Richard Conti, Joyce Love, and Alfredo Balarin today to sign Local Law E of 2021, banning the use of ATVs and Dirt Bikes on public property including parks and increasing repossession fees, combined with illegal use fines, to $3,000 per violation.

Over the past several summers there has been a steady increase in ATVs and Dirt Bikes traveling across the City. Dirt bikes and ATVs have been witnessed driving through City parks and on sidewalks in front of Albany High School – putting young children and parents in danger – and these vehicles hit buses and injured both bystanders and police officers in just Spring 2021 alone. In an effort to deter this illegal activity, Mayor Sheehan, Chief Hawkins, and the City’s Corporation Counsel office led by Marisa Franchini worked with Councilmembers Conti, Love, and Balarin to draft and enact this legislation.

This legislation also allows the City of Albany to sell or destroy repossessed vehicles unclaimed after 60 days, and goes into effect immediately.

Albany Mayor Kathy Sheehan said, “These vehicles are loud, dangerous, negatively impact the quality of life in our neighborhoods, and are a menace to our community. The message today is clear: do not bring your ATV or Dirt Bike to the City of Albany, because you are not only putting our residents in danger, but it will cost you $3,000 to get it back.”

Albany Police Chief Eric Hawkins said, “The Albany Police Department remains committed to ensuring our community’s streets remain free of all-terrain vehicles and dirt bikes. As we have all witnessed, those who choose to operate these unregistered and uninsured vehicles on public roadways are a nuisance to the community and have no regard for the safety of motorists, pedestrians and our residents. We remain committed to this issue and will continue to arrest, issue traffic citations and confiscate the vehicles of those who participate in this reckless behavior.”

 

There tou go. The witch hunt begun. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

22 minutes ago, Camenbert said:

If they are after loud gas ATV or Dirt Bike in City (?!), really what a good news for EUCs !

 

They'll get to them too. 

Remember when the first cars showed up, over 100 years ago? 

[Camenbert]

13 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

Remember when the first cars showed up, over 100 years ago? 

Because they were loud too? because of the drivers?
what happen since, aren't they everywhere? No doubt EUCs will have same future

In fact the title is misleading, I see 2 community : who see EUCs as a Sport, who see EUCs as the future of clean transportation.
The fears and expectations are well different for both community.

[winterwheel]

I agree with the car metaphor; no matter what this community or that does, the long term prognosis for wheels is that they will be everywhere. Wheels are just too useful, and dovetail too nicely with a world that is trying very hard to reduce it's environmental footprint.

Edited June 24, 2021 by winterwheel

[Paulo Mesquita]

7 hours ago, Camenbert said:

Because they were loud too? because of the drivers?
what happen since, aren't they everywhere? No doubt EUCs will have same future

In fact the title is misleading, I see 2 community : who see EUCs as a Sport, who see EUCs as the future of clean transportation.
The fears and expectations are well different for both community.

Absolutely... 2 different ways EUCs are going to establish themselves.