Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

Ok, still thanks for posting the idea though.

KS should still maybe send a gift card to the person if they use the idea.

[KNZ]

 

[div]

“No hall sensor mode” as safety backup 💕

Edited September 26, 2021 by div

[Paul A]

Great video.

CEO making a personal, public appearance is reassuring.

[Jason McNeil]

Just received these photos of the Wheel in the flesh, it does not disappoint from the renders.  

Great video with the interview segments with Sen Zhang, Carey, & Leo Lu, it shows how far this Company has evolved from the first days of making the 14B in the 'back of a garage' type operation.  

Edited September 26, 2021 by Jason McNeil

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, KNZ said:

 

Great presentation @Jack King Song, it was nice to see the the engineers and designers speak about that they created, with execs backing them up.

It's fantastic to see an increased focus on safety with an innovative sensorless controller mode taking over in case the hall sensor fails.
I have two requests on safety which will help to reach another level.

Context: some of the most harmful crashes are due to the inability to hear beeps.

1/ High frequency "safety margin" data over Bluetooth Low Energy

On current wheels, the frequency of wheel data sampled and sent over bluetooth to connected apps is low, like 5Hz.
As a result, a low safety margin alarm might be received up to 200ms late, after the rider already over-powered or over-leaned the wheel in case the wheel beeper could not be heard.

Battery voltage, motor phase current, battery current, MOSFET temperature could be good candidates for high frequency sampling and sending as well.

2/ Dual Bluetooth Low Energy connections

At the moment, wheels allow only allow a single connection to their BLE chipset, which then stops advertising.
It means that once the Kingsong app, EUC World or Darkness bot are connected it is impossible to connect anything else to the wheel.

I know of many riders always connecting their wheel to EUC World in order to record and/or share tours including wheel data, and wheel logs.

A dual connection would allow to also connect a special alarm device to the wheel high frequency safety margin data in order to emit alarms that can't be missed, like:

• in the helmet as a vibration or light
• a smartwatch app vibrating, not depending on a mobile phone app
• an extra beeper that's always heard
• a laser projected in front of the wheel

All this without the requirement to physically modify the wheel to install an emitter relaying the beeper status.

Or even better, please make it multiple instead of dual if possible.

 

High frequency data should be fairly easy to enable since it's a matter of sample rate, and multiple BLE connection is either a setting in the BLE stack or might need to extend the code a little bit to handle that. Usually not too difficult.

I'll be happy to help with design & implementation if needed, contact me in PM.

Edited September 26, 2021 by supercurio

[mrelwood]

46 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Context: some of the most harmful crashes are due to the inability to hear beeps.

That’s only one part of the chain of events and causes though. Riders don’t crash on KS or Inmotion “because they didn’t hear the beeps”. It’s because KS and IM don’t rely on the rider hearing the beeps as the only method of preventing accelerating past the speed capabilities of the EUC. I’m sure the S20 is the same way. If the rider doesn’t hear the beeps, I’m sure the S20 will tilt back gently to both inform the rider, as well as directly preventing the user from accelerating anymore.

[stephen]

Liking this wheel already 

[Paradox]

Should I be concerned about that little cylinder sitting on top of the spring?  It seems exposed to damage if the wheel should fall backwards. 

[jrhz06]

Great looking wheel, going to make the wait even harder after seeing this video.

[Rawnei]

Couple of things I noticed: There is a new handle bolted onto the back, for easier carrying? The fender/mudguard color is now red, black was nicer hope this is temporary. 😁 It has the Kenda 262, might be final choice?

[eucVibes]

 

[mhpr262]

That tire looks like you will never have to worry about bits of glass or sharp gravel on dirt roads again. Those have given me three flats already with my V10F tire, twice I was  miles away from my home or car and the last time I almost collapsed with a heat stroke from having to push it back in my office clothes in the miday sun.

[mhpr262]

3 hours ago, Paradox said:

Should I be concerned about that little cylinder sitting on top of the spring?  It seems exposed to damage if the wheel should fall backwards. 

Yeah it will probably be damaged rather easily. It is just a part of the damping system though, the wheel will get you home without issues even if that part gets totally wrecked thanks to the steel spring.

[Tawpie]

I'm thinking I need to start sourcing a spring-for-light-riders before they become unobtanium. Guesses as to when the exact model of shock is finalized?

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s only one part of the chain of events and causes though. Riders don’t crash on KS or Inmotion “because they didn’t hear the beeps”. It’s because KS and IM don’t rely on the rider hearing the beeps as the only method of preventing accelerating past the speed capabilities of the EUC. I’m sure the S20 is the same way. If the rider doesn’t hear the beeps, I’m sure the S20 will tilt back gently to both inform the rider, as well as directly preventing the user from accelerating anymore.

Respectfully disagree here.

When I ride my 16X, it beeps most of the time before the tilt-back can engage. Most often during accelerations or on a gradient uphill (on or off-road).
A little too often, pedals start dipping because beeps are so close to an over-leaning situation.

I am wearing earmuffs almost eliminating wind noise and always managed to catch up the pedal dip before crashing - so far.
But I have no doubt riders crashed their Kingsong wheels after missing beeps, there's a few examples in these forums and on YouTube.

[Ádám Szitás]

Well this was one of the main reasons for going 126V and "only" 70kmh, so we will see how high the margin is. I also don't care about beeps on the v11, tiltback is always there when I need it. 

[supercurio]

Interesting sight in the video, how the "spokes" inside the motor look.

If it is representative of the actual motor, there's good hope in the motor being on the light side 

[DjPanJan]

I am hyped for first incline tests S20. To topic kingsong have excelent overpower warning mechanism. 

[That Guy]

Interesting to see how they solved the trolley handle functionality. It might be too narrow for being off-centre?

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Respectfully disagree here.

When I ride my 16X, it beeps most of the time before the tilt-back can engage. Most often during accelerations or on a gradient uphill (on or off-road).
A little too often, pedals start dipping because beeps are so close to an over-leaning situation.

I am wearing earmuffs almost eliminating wind noise and always managed to catch up the pedal dip before crashing - so far.
But I have no doubt riders crashed their Kingsong wheels after missing beeps, there's a few examples in these forums and on YouTube.

That is because the KS16X do not have same top speed safety room as previous KS wheels. KS should never have raised the speed limit above 45kmh as it was originally planed for in the design.

Both KS and IM wheels behave differently to GW-like wheels. 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Interesting sight in the video, how the "spokes" inside the motor look.

If it is representative of the actual motor, there's good hope in the motor being on the light side 

Material use is both shape and alloy depending. So is the weight. Such a picture do not really say much. I just hope they made it from something that is a good balance of lightweight and strength. 

[supercurio]

45 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Material use is both shape and alloy depending. So is the weight. Such a picture do not really say much. I just hope they made it from something that is a good balance of lightweight and strength. 

It is significant because most if not all EUC motors with an axle (so not hollow bore) so far use a design type that seems standard, and has likely not been optimized for the EUC use case.

However after looking at other hollow bore motors, their internal "spokes" look different.

Here's the latest small bearings EX.N:

The V11:

However, in this article, Ecodrift notes that the V11 design, as seen above and using aluminium was not that much lighter than the traditional steel core.

 

It looks like Kingsong tried to minimise weight and maximize strength for torque transfer with their core design: we'll see how it turns out!

Edited September 26, 2021 by supercurio

[Paul A]

@supercurio

153 km  Stuvsta-Snattringe to Vasteras, 8 hours, standing all the way??

Sherman?  No recharging needed?

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

That is because the KS16X do not have same top speed safety room as previous KS wheels. KS should never have raised the speed limit above 45kmh as it was originally planed for in the design.

Both KS and IM wheels behave differently to GW-like wheels. 

Experience shows that the KS-S18 alarms are also close (too close for aggressive or heavy riders) to the wheel being over-powered or over-leaned, so it has been the case since the 16X and onwards.

Hopefully the S20 will be programmed with alarms at a more ample safety margin but regardless;

I have no doubt that high frequency real-time safety margin data available to peripherals instead of only the wheel itself would bring a new era of safety to EUCs.
Not only as an alternative to beeps, but also to allow riders to define by themselves at which % of safety margin they want to be notified.

Edited September 26, 2021 by supercurio