King Song S18 Discussion

[Scottie888]

3 hours ago, buell47 said:

I manage 100 miles with 78kg rider weight on my 16X, with tail wind probably 300, if it is strong enough. But if I want to have a little more fun without the help of a tornado, it is suddenly only 40 miles max. Now stop trying to talk yourself into believing that the battery capacity is high enough. 

There's no doubt & beyond argument that like money & women (well maybe women not so much), battery & range are one of those things that are never enough. That said, there must be a practical limit or otherwise, we might as well attach a permanent power cord & have no limit. Wait then we run into power cable lengths amongst other impractical issues.

I remember Chooch saying in one of his vids that his perfect wheel would be the internals of the Sherman in the form factor of the S18. I'm guessing its not beyond the realm of engineering but then, the Sherm already weights 77lbs so lets say another 10lbs or so for suspension which makes it just shy of 90lbs.

I can certainly see that happening on a road wheel but are we sure we wanna go serious offroading on a 90lb wheel? 

 

[ColoradoQuattro]

Here's an S18 video for you guys.  Still weak, but at least the music is awesome.

 

[Cranium]

I did a 25 mile ride yesterday.  100% down to 15% battery.  My range was way lower than others doing range tests.  It goes to show a heavier rider plus speed drain the battery much faster.   

As reported by Darknessbot:
Avg speed: 22MPH
Max speed: 31MPH
Max temperature: 36.0°C -- It never goes above this leaving me skeptical
Max Current: 34.95A
Max Power: 2805W
Min Voltage: 65.37V

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Cranium
Added graph

[Jon Stern]

1 hour ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Here's an S18 video for you guys.  Still weak, but at least the music is awesome.

 

That would have been great with a stabilized camera.

[NYC One Roll]

4 hours ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Here's an S18 video for you guys.  Still weak, but at least the music is awesome.

 

Where is the s18?

[dsd317]

9 hours ago, Steef Klonoa said:

Are there any risks to the battery by using a fast charger? Is it bad to switch between using the fast charger and regular 2.5amp charger? I'm thinking about buying one.

I'm no expert here, but I think frequent fast charging can/may shorten the life of batteries.  I'm sure experts here can chime in and provide more details.

I got the fast charger for moments where I need to charge quickly while on the go...or when I have a spur-of-the-moment urge to ride.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, dsd317 said:

I'm no expert here, but I think frequent fast charging can/may shorten the life of batteries.

You are correct. However, Li-ion "fast charging" is a charging rate above 1C, which is 21A for the 84V MSX, 20A for the V11, 15A for the S18, etc. (Battery cell Ah * parallel cell groups.)

A 5A EUC charger does not provide "fast charging". Only "faster charging".

[Cranium]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You are correct. However, Li-ion "fast charging" is a charging rate above 1C, which is 21A for the 84V MSX, 20A for the V11, 15A for the S18, etc. (Battery cell Ah * parallel cell groups.)

A 5A EUC charger does not provide "fast charging". Only "faster charging".

This is correct.  1C is the general rule of thumb.  Different battery chemistries and manufacturers will have different rated charge rates.  It's best to try to find the spec sheet for the specific battery, if possible, to find out the manufacturers recommended charge rates.  Many will list the max charge rate, which may be 1C or even higher but have a recommended charge rate of something lower.  

If we consider the Kingsong S18 cells - LG INR 21700 M50T and look at the spec sheet, these are rated to have a standard charge up to 1.455A, which is only 0.3C.  The fast charge is still below the thumb rule at 0.7C but due to the capacity of the battery equates to 3.395A.  The key here is to determine how many series of cells are in parallel for the EUC and then multiply the recommended charge rate by this number to determine how many amps could be charged within the manufacturers recommended specifications.  For the S18, it is a 20S3P battery which means a standard charge is 3 x 1.455A = 4.365A and a max charge of 3 x 3.395A = 13.095A.  So this means a 5A charge rate is above the standard charge rate by 12% but you could increase the rate by 262% before reaching the fast charge rate.  Huge difference.

Will this shorten the life to charge higher than the standard rate?  Technically, yes.  Will it be someone one can notice?  Not likely without lab equipment.  However, there are other concerns about these batteries that I'll put in a separate post.  

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

13 hours ago, buell47 said:

This means that you can talk yourself into the range if you want. Fact is simple, that a 1100wh battery in a 2200+Watt wheel is simply too small for today's conditions. 

That's true, but not everyone has the trails right in front of their front door and if I have to ride even e.g. 10 km the whole thing looks different again, if I don't want to go there with 15-20 mph. I also have to go back and that with a nearly empty battery in slow motion is no fun. 

That's the perfect example what I'm talking about. He carried the S18 to the offroad meeting which is just 13 miles far away. 😂

Why? Is the S18 too slow and he prefers to carry it? Maybe, but maybe there was another reason? 

If he had ridden there at the usual speed and also calculated that he would have to ride the same distance back then there wouldn't have been much left in the battery so a few people could test the Wheel for just a few minutes. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/3169087706522504/

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

That's the perfect example what I'm talking about. He carried the S18 to the offroad meeting which is just 13 miles far away. 😂

Why? Is the S18 too slow and he prefers to carry it? Maybe, but maybe there was another reason? 

If he had ridden there at the usual speed and also calculated that he would have to ride the same distance back then there wouldn't have been much left in the battery so a few people could test the Wheel for just a few minutes. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/3169087706522504/

That is one pov & its an valid point to make. That said, there's also an opposite view that's just as valid. I personally know of & see lots of ppl driving to their fav MTB trails with their bikes on racks. One can also make an argument why they don't ride to their fav trails instead.

There's no right nor wrong on these things. IMO the more specialized the equipment, the more prep one needs while the opposite hold true as well for generalized stuff. Ultimately, who cares so long as one is having fun. 

Potato or Potahto, why debate right & wrong when its a personal choice.

[redfoxdude]

The vast majority of my rides aren't long enough to necessitate a larger battery than the S18 has. I even have a couple local trails close enough that I can ride to, enjoy, and ride home on a single charge. So the battery may be too small for some folks, but not everyone. I'm not sure which demographic is actually larger.

All I know is I've been having a lot of fun on the S18, blasting over roots at over 20mph like they're nothing, jumping curbs with little to no fatigue, and all with really nice maneuverability for carving. I like it a lot 🙂

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

57 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

That is one pov & its an valid point to make. That said, there's also an opposite view that's just as valid. I personally know of & see lots of ppl driving to their fav MTB trails with their bikes on racks. One can also make an argument why they don't ride to their fav trails instead.

There's no right nor wrong on these things. IMO the more specialized the equipment, the more prep one needs while the opposite hold true as well for generalized stuff. Ultimately, who cares so long as one is having fun. 

Potato or Potahto, why debate right & wrong when its a personal choice.

It wasn't that I wanted to make the Wheel bad, I just couldn't stand all the sugarcoating about the range anymore. 1100wh is 1100wh and the S18 can't do magic either, that should be clear to anyone who is interested in an S18.
If there are some statements here that there are easily 40-50 miles in it, one should also say that this is only possible if you ride relatively slowly, as for example when you ride a slow technical trail.

Just as an example:
I can reach with the 16X (1554wh) about 80-100km with technical trail riding, but if I ride with 40-50km/h to an offroad destination 15-20km away, do some trail riding there and back again, the battery is already completely empty after 50-60km.

Edited August 10, 2020 by buell47

[vanguard]

14 hours ago, Cranium said:

Max temperature: 36.0°C

 

 

A compliment to you for using all those gears 

 

[-iB-]

Had some nice, long rides this weekend on a mixture of offroad and pavement.  The suspension isn't completely catch all, as other people have mentioned.  I think mine is dialed in to the most extreme bumps, as minor bumps were pretty noticeable, but a pretty nasty pothole that would have tested my balance and recovery before was almost completely mitigated.  It'll be a nice tinkering exercise to figure out the best pressures for my rides on average, but I might just keep it at these extremes and try to find more mountain biking trails to really test this thing out.  

Lots of fun... except for the lack of the back tail light still   But waiting on the teardown video to see if it's simply an unplugged cable or something like that.

[Feynman]

5 hours ago, buell47 said:

It wasn't that I wanted to make the Wheel bad, I just couldn't stand all the sugarcoating about the range anymore.

I don't see any sugar coating, and I don't think anyone will argue that the S18 has great range.  To each their own.  You don't buy a Ferrari because it has awesome gas mileage.  I'll take my S18 over a V11 (Prius) any day of the week.

[stephen]

14 minutes ago, Feynman said:

I don't see any sugar coating, and I don't think anyone will argue that the S18 has great range.  To each their own.  You don't buy a Ferrari because it has awesome gas mileage.  I'll take my S18 over a V11 (Prius) any day of the week.

Didn't you like the ride of the V11 be nice to know the difference

[Feynman]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

Didn't you like the ride of the V11 be nice to know the difference

I haven't ridden one.  Just going by appearance only.  I've had bad experience with InMotion wheels in the past, but people say this one is higher quality.

[Rehab1]

I received this short video from Jason after he was kind enough to contact KS  about my  S18 handle locking issue. 
 

Morning Dan,

 

I've received a response from KS about this issue:

 

For the S18 handle, that can't close well. It needs to grind the hole a little bit.
I will show you a video link later for checking. 

 

 S18 Handle Fails to Lock.mp4

Please let us know if this works for you,

 

Jason 

 

Now I just need an S18 tear down video. KS states this mod is for when the handle does not close well.

Not sure if there is a communication/ translation breakdown because my issue relates to the handle not locking in place on the first catch. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Rehab1

[HerotheCat]

On 8/4/2020 at 8:59 PM, HerotheCat said:

Can someone confirm if there are two or three pedal height adjustments?

If there are three settings, the lower setting doesn't have the any screws in a hole, but in that bottom slot. I assumed those screws were a safety/backup for the four hex bolts that hold the assembly to the two support-bars. ** The wheel came in the second position.

I couldn't get a picture, but here's a visual (highest, middle, lowest):

I'm not complaining, I just don't want to use that lowest setting if it's not what is intended.

FYI, King Song did CONFIRM that the three positions noted above are valid. The absence of a lower screw hole will not affect the performance/safety of the lower pedal position.

[eve]

10 hours ago, buell47 said:

It wasn't that I wanted to make the Wheel bad, I just couldn't stand all the sugarcoating about the range anymore. 1100wh is 1100wh and the S18 can't do magic either, that should be clear to anyone who is interested in an S18.

From all the range test its pretty apparent the the S18 is quite efficient with its battery consumption. 1100Wh is still 1100Wh though. 

I have an eSkate that has 5000Ah. Its range when i go at 30-35km/h is around 15-20km. So for me S18 that will let me go at that speed for 64km. Its good enough.

Since ivebeen pretty impressed with my skates battery life which most people on this forum might find weird considering how big EUC batteries are. 

Also offtopic: Find it pretty interesting that literally noone seems to even mention that S18s board is made out of aluminium(or some parts of it) which is why the wheel doesnt need active cooling. Its slow to heat it up and fast to cooldown.

Edited August 10, 2020 by eve

[Ben Kim]

24 minutes ago, eve said:

From all the range test its pretty apparent the the S18 is quite efficient with its battery consumption. 1100Wh is still 1100Wh though. 

I have an eSkate that has 5000Ah. Its range when i go at 30-35km/h is around 15-20km. So for me S18 that will let me go at that speed for 64km. Its good enough.

Since ivebeen pretty impressed with my skates battery life which most people on this forum might find weird considering how big EUC batteries are. 

Also offtopic: Find it pretty interesting that literally noone seems to even mention that S18s board is made out of aluminium(or some parts of it) which is why the wheel doesnt need active cooling. Its slow to heat it up and fast to cooldown.

5000Ah? LOL unless you mean 5000mAh? For reference, the S18 has a 15Ah battery. 

[Scottie888]

41 minutes ago, eve said:

Also offtopic: Find it pretty interesting that literally noone seems to even mention that S18s board is made out of aluminium(or some parts of it) which is why the wheel doesnt need active cooling. Its slow to heat it up and fast to cooldown.

Can't be Al mobo as otherwise, it would short out. The more likely scenario is Al fins attached to the chips (esp Mosfets) that generate most heat. I didn't know there's no cooling fan in the S18. A buddy has the MSX & the fan noise is horrendous.

[redfoxdude]

1 hour ago, eve said:

Also offtopic: Find it pretty interesting that literally noone seems to even mention that S18s board is made out of aluminium(or some parts of it) which is why the wheel doesnt need active cooling. Its slow to heat it up and fast to cooldown.

On 8/2/2020 at 8:22 PM, redfoxdude said:

What caught my attention was that, even after the main 1,000 foot climb, the wheel only reported a temperature of 28 degrees Celsius, though the ambient was a comfortable 60 degrees Fahrenheit. The passive cooling seems to work pretty well, if that number is correct.

Yes, it seems to be extremely effective at cooling! Basically the entire underside of the control board housing is aluminum, a gigantic passively-cooled heatsink, no cooling fan at all. It's been reasonably cool weather here, but I haven't been able to get the board to show more than 18-20 degrees Celsius above ambient, even after large hill climbs. Assuming the numbers are correct/real, I've found this to be a very impressive aspect of the design. 🙂

It's awkward to capture a picture, but I've tried to highlight the heatsink. It runs completely front to back from the headlight to the taillight. Please excuse the dust, I just recently offroaded, ha! 

Edited August 10, 2020 by redfoxdude

[IamIan]

On 8/9/2020 at 3:48 PM, Scottie888 said:

I remember Chooch saying in one of his vids that his perfect wheel would be the internals of the Sherman in the form factor of the S18. I'm guessing its not beyond the realm of engineering but then, the Sherm already weights 77lbs so lets say another 10lbs or so for suspension which makes it just shy of 90lbs.

I can certainly see that happening on a road wheel but are we sure we wanna go serious offroading on a 90lb wheel? 

 

Or keep it as a ~40Lb EUC weight while still being that combination of performance specs .. but .. cost would be crazy.

Just convince the U.S. military they need to use such high end off road EUCs to deploy troops .. then join military to be able to ride the crazy expensive EUC.

 

Ignoring how rediculous the $$ would be.

Licerion style 400+ wh/kg batteries would mean the Sherman 3200wh would only be a ~18lb battery.

The high end electric motors push peaks up around ~7kw per kg of motor .. so maybe about ~2Lbs for Sherman level power motor.

Leaving about ~20lbs left for all the rest (electronics / structure / suspension / etc)  ... Swap out the steel for high quality carbon fiber , or titanium .. and I think it could be done.

 

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, IamIan said:

Or keep it as a ~40Lb EUC weight while still being that combination of performance specs .. but .. cost would be crazy.

Just convince the U.S. military they need to use such high end off road EUCs to deploy troops .. then join military to be able to ride the crazy expensive EUC.

 

Ignoring how rediculous the $$ would be.

Licerion style 400+ wh/kg batteries would mean the Sherman 3200wh would only be a ~18lb battery.

The high end electric motors push peaks up around ~7kw per kg of motor .. so maybe about ~2Lbs for Sherman level power motor.

Leaving about ~20lbs left for all the rest (electronics / structure / suspension / etc)  ... Swap out the steel for high quality carbon fiber , or titanium .. and I think it could be done.

 

Yaa at something like $80k@ & thats for a toilet! So this particular wheel would like end up being a half mil each!!!  

I would love one but I don't think my loans mgr nor the the CFO (da missus) will agree.