King Song S18 Discussion

[Feynman]

26 minutes ago, dsd317 said:

Nice!  Do you have any nice trails to test this beast out?

I'm in Sugar Land, and if all goes well, I should receive mine mid-end of August (hopefully sooner).  I'll be testing this at bike trails in my area.  Can't wait!

Oh cool.  I'm in Richmond, so if you want to ride and check it out lemme know.  Not sure about trails nearby, but I live off a gravel road full of bumps and potholes that kill my back on the Z10.  That's first test for me.  It just arrived, btw!

Anyone know how to update firmware?  Mine arrived with 1.03, but the app says it's up to date.  No option to update via app that I can find.

[Feynman]

47 minutes ago, ColoradoQuattro said:

Congrats!  That is awesome!  What's your first mission?

Apparently it's getting the app to update the damn firmware.

[NYC One Roll]

28 minutes ago, Feynman said:

Oh cool.  I'm in Richmond, so if you want to ride and check it out lemme know.  Not sure about trails nearby, but I live off a gravel road full of bumps and potholes that kill my back on the Z10.  That's first test for me.  It just arrived, btw!

Anyone know how to update firmware?  Mine arrived with 1.03, but the app says it's up to date.  No option to update via app that I can find.

Got some pics to share? 

[Scottie888]

21 minutes ago, iode said:

100% this. Folks here think it's "just a measly 5 mph" without understanding that the S18 is literally missing an entire parallel (3p vs 4p) of battery for voltage redundancy, and therefore top speed margin. Not to mention if they do give into whimsical customer demands, they could potentially do irreparable harm to their brand when someone inevitably cuts out and smashes their face in. I'm sure the owners and engineers are KingSong don't want their brand associated with cutouts and grisly morbid injuries (we already have Gotway for this heh).

We've known the top advertised speed for months and months now; we put our deposits where our mouths were, why would anyone complain now?

If doing irreparable harm due to speed cutouts is THE criteria, then no one will be riding wheels. If higher speed is the bane of wheels, then Gotway & now Shermans wouldn't exist. However I'm betting Gotway sells as much if not more than any other brand on the market (& perhaps even combined) so factually the irreparable harm via speed is moot. Any motorized auto on the market will have enough speed (without an iota of doubt) to maim & kill so if we follow your argument, should they all be limited to speeds that don't kill? If so what is that limit & more importantly, who gets to determine that?

There are folks who are asking for the cutout angle to be increased or atleast adjustable. Isn't that also a source of potential irreparable harm &or death. Far's I'm concerned, speed like anything else is just another tool in the toolbox to be used (or not). It's the individual using the tool that determines its viability or not. But I'll play your game. What if I told u I have no plans nor intentions to go 35mph? What if I'm telling I just want to do 30mph consistently & have the extra 5mph headroom to avoid the dread cutouts.

Then in my scenario, wouldn't I be effecting exactly the opposite of your theorem? Wouldn't having the 5mph headroom make it safer instead.

ps: please don't make the argument that if they increase the speed, then some ppl will use it & get hurt. We all know how invalid that is for obvious reasons. Instead, I subscribe to the "if u build it, they will come". So Kingsong, build it.

[EUChristian]

3 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

If doing irreparable harm due to speed cutouts is THE criteria, then no one will be riding wheels. If higher speed is the bane of wheels, then Gotway & now Shermans wouldn't exist. However I'm betting Gotway sells as much if not more than any other brand on the market (& perhaps even combined) so factually the irreparable harm via speed is moot. Any motorized auto on the market will have enough speed (without an iota of doubt) to maim & kill so if we follow your argument, should they all be limited to speeds that don't kill? If so what is that limit & more importantly, who gets to determine that?

There are folks who are asking for the cutout angle to be increased or atleast adjustable. Isn't that also a source of potential irreparable harm &or death. Far's I'm concerned, speed like anything else is just another tool in the toolbox to be used (or not). It's the individual using the tool that determines its viability or not. But I'll play your game. What if I told u I have no plans nor intentions to go 35mph? What if I'm telling I just want to do 30mph consistently & have the extra 5mph headroom to avoid the dread cutouts.

Then in my scenario, wouldn't I be effecting exactly the opposite of your theorem? Wouldn't having the 5mph headroom make it safer instead.

ps: please don't make the argument that if they increase the speed, then some ppl will use it & get hurt. We all know how invalid that is for obvious reasons. Instead, I subscribe to the "if u build it, they will come". So Kingsong, build it.

Let me decide if I want to risk it and 30mph is where I am looking to ride as well. 

[musk]

10 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

...However I'm betting Gotway sells as much if not more than any other brand on the market (& perhaps even combined) so factually the irreparable harm via speed is moot...

If this user's math is is correct, this was the sales breakdown for ecoDrift in 2019:

Inmotion: 1263

KingSong: 1243

Gotway: 515

Ninebot: 109

Who knows if that's representative of the entire world market, but at least in Russia Gotway is not even close.

Edited August 4, 2020 by musk

[redfoxdude]

53 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

If doing irreparable harm due to speed cutouts is THE criteria, then no one will be riding wheels. If higher speed is the bane of wheels, then Gotway & now Shermans wouldn't exist. However I'm betting Gotway sells as much if not more than any other brand on the market (& perhaps even combined) so factually the irreparable harm via speed is moot. Any motorized auto on the market will have enough speed (without an iota of doubt) to maim & kill so if we follow your argument, should they all be limited to speeds that don't kill? If so what is that limit & more importantly, who gets to determine that?

There are folks who are asking for the cutout angle to be increased or atleast adjustable. Isn't that also a source of potential irreparable harm &or death. Far's I'm concerned, speed like anything else is just another tool in the toolbox to be used (or not). It's the individual using the tool that determines its viability or not. But I'll play your game. What if I told u I have no plans nor intentions to go 35mph? What if I'm telling I just want to do 30mph consistently & have the extra 5mph headroom to avoid the dread cutouts.

Then in my scenario, wouldn't I be effecting exactly the opposite of your theorem? Wouldn't having the 5mph headroom make it safer instead.

ps: please don't make the argument that if they increase the speed, then some ppl will use it & get hurt. We all know how invalid that is for obvious reasons. Instead, I subscribe to the "if u build it, they will come". So Kingsong, build it.

The point I think you are missing is not that 35mph is unsafe because ouchies crashes and accidents, but rather, 35mph would potentially be extremely close to the limitations of the battery, leaving hardly any extra power headroom to keep the user balanced. It can take you up to 30mph as is already, and increasing the top speed the user is allowed to go does not increase the headroom, that's not how this works. The headroom is directly related to the battery's performance, and how much effective phase voltage it is able to produce. In order to increase the headroom (and top speed) we need more parallel packs, higher nominal voltage, or both.

I do agree that higher top speed capability does mean more headroom and safety, but the machine needs to be designed and built accordingly. I cut out on a KS16X at 28mph, downhill. King Song increased the top speed of the 16X, as users requested, but there is extremely little headroom at the top end on that wheel.

More detailed explanation for those interested:
Torque and therefore rotation of the motor is produced by electrical current running through the motor phases. Current is induced by applying a voltage across the phases. Higher phase voltage, higher current, higher torque. Now, when the motor is rotating, back electromotive force (back EMF) occurs, basically a negative voltage relative to the voltage we are applying to the phase. The faster the rotation, the higher the back EMF, and the more it reduces the voltage we are applying across the phase. So in order to maintain the current/torque we want, we need to increase the voltage we are applying, limited of course by the maximum voltage of the battery itself. But at the same time we do this, the more power we draw from the battery, the more the voltage sags, which also eats into our maximum possible voltage. Eventually you get to a point where you can't apply enough voltage to induce the required current/torque, and that's when a cutout occurs. Thus, more parallel packs reduces the sag when power is drawn from the battery, and a higher overall pack voltage raises the headroom as well.

Edited August 4, 2020 by redfoxdude
formatting

[Feynman]

19 minutes ago, nycommuter69 said:

Got some pics to share? 

https://www.photo-pick.com/online/vsbN.link

 

Took a quick ride down the gravel road.  Suspension is magicical.  20kph speed limit sucks balls.  It's 100 degrees out and I'm having some heart problems (covid related I think - 99% sure I had it all of January after spending NYE in downtown Boston), so I can't take a longer ride.  

[EUChristian]

4 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

The point I think you are missing is not that 35mph is unsafe because ouchies crashes and accidents, but rather, 35mph would potentially be extremely close to the limitations of the battery, leaving hardly any extra power headroom to keep the user balanced. It can take you up to 30mph as is already, and increasing the top speed the user is allowed to go does not increase the headroom, that's now how this works. The headroom is directly related to the battery's performance, and how much effective phase voltage it is able to produce. In order to increase the headroom (and top speed) we need more parallel packs, higher nominal voltage, or both.

Appreciate everyone teaching me some things about how this works...I had no idea it was complicated. Looks like 31 it is. 
 

Sherman next year for me!

[Scottie888]

7 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

The point I think you are missing is not that 35mph is unsafe because ouchies crashes and accidents, but rather, 35mph would potentially be extremely close to the limitations of the battery, leaving hardly any extra power headroom to keep the user balanced. It can take you up to 30mph as is already, and increasing the top speed the user is allowed to go does not increase the headroom, that's now how this works. The headroom is directly related to the battery's performance, and how much effective phase voltage it is able to produce. In order to increase the headroom (and top speed) we need more parallel packs, higher nominal voltage, or both.

I do agree that higher top speed capability does mean more headroom and safety, but the machine needs to be designed and built accordingly. I cut out on a KS16X at 28mph, downhill. King Song increased the top speed of the 16X, as users requested, but there is extremely little headroom at the top end on that wheel.

Fair 'nuff. I'm not a scientist nor a physicist nor a battery specialist so I won't argue the validity of that. If so then Kingsong can easily make that statement in writing & put it all to rest how it's not possible scientifically to increase the top end any further. Afterall science is science & if proven, then facts are facts.

What I dislike is others determining that limiting to a certain speed will be safer just cos. I as the end user, would like to be the final arbiter & at least have some say especially when the facts aren't not only unclear but in many circumstances, contradicting.

[redfoxdude]

1 minute ago, Scottie888 said:

Fair 'nuff. I'm not a scientist nor a physicist nor a battery specialist so I won't argue the validity of that. If so then Kingsong can easily make that statement in writing & put it all to rest how it's not possible scientifically to increase the top end any further. Afterall science is science & if proven, then facts are facts.

What I dislike is others determining that limiting to a certain speed will be safer just cos. I as the end user, would like to be the final arbiter & at least have some say especially when the facts aren't not only unclear but in many circumstances, contradicting.

That's fair. I certainly wouldn't mind a King Song wheel capable of 35+ mph for a hefty safety margin. I like cruising at 24-28 mph typically, and it's really nice to have that extra safety cushion at the top end. I like that about my GotWays. (Though, looking at the electronics inside GotWays still makes me wince)

[Ádám Szitás]

It's amazing how people are literally asking for a cutout, increasing speed without even knowing how the speed is achievable or not...imagine if they did increase it like they did with the 16x and then the surprised people come one after another wondering why they faceplanted when they didn't even reach 30mph...this is how.

 

[Feynman]

That's the OneWheel model. There is no tiltback to save you.  Just a subtle pushback that if ignored results in the motor cutting out and dumping you forward.  One thing I love about EUC is the alarms and tiltback that give you plenty of warning before a cutout.  If increasing the speed on KS wheels jeopardizes these safety features, I wouldn't want it.  But, to each their own.

[redfoxdude]

9 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

It's amazing how people are literally asking for a cutout, increasing speed without even knowing how the speed is achievable or not...imagine if they did increase it like they did with the 16x and then the surprised people come one after another wondering why they faceplanted when they didn't even reach 30mph...this is how.

 

Yes, unfortunately most folks aren't super familiar with how this kind of stuff works, so I can't really blame them. I edited a more detailed explanation into my post above in hopes of informing people if they wish to know more.

[Scottie888]

6 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

It's amazing how people are literally asking for a cutout, increasing speed without even knowing how the speed is achievable or not...imagine if they did increase it like they did with the 16x and then the surprised people come one after another wondering why they faceplanted when they didn't even reach 30mph...this is how.

 

It's amazing that ever since the invention of the wheel, man has not only been asking but clamoring for more & more speed. That's fact & non debatable. Whether its mechanically &or electronically possible is different topic.

No one is "asking" for faceplants anymore than anyone is asking to cut off their finger when using a knife. We're not all scientists nor physicists nor engineers but instead (& perhaps the most important link) only the customers. As a customer, it's totally within my prerogative to (always) ask for even if I don't get, I know that if I don't ask, I won't get.

That's why we have forums with more expert knowledge to shed light & esp. so mfgr's can chime in with their knowledge as well. We all know that Kingsong is renowned to be conservative & even as only a single voice, I'd like to see them take some risks. But that's me, YMMV ofcos.

[Feynman]

If people want to do dangerous things, I'm all for it.  From legal, and perhaps corporate image standpoints I can understand why Kingsong would not want to provide the option.  That said, I've seen someone hack the Z10; which has a 995WH battery; to go 45mph.  I'm sure the same could be done to KS wheels by crazy Russian hackers.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Feynman
speeliingah

[RockyTop]

We are going to need a complete redo on the motor windings or increase the voltage to 100+ volts if you want 35 mph on the S18. 

The V11 either has less resistance in the motor ( heavier or shorter wires) or They are back to calculating for a < 120 pound rider and people are going to get hurt. Given the new motor style I am going with the heavier wires in the motor. 
 

Side note: the sales numbers look right to me. If anything the GW numbers look high. Last year the  16X, V10 and XL sold BIG!!  The S18 and V11 will likely sell big this year if people could just get their hands on them.

[Rywokast]

23 minutes ago, Feynman said:

If people want to do dangerous things, I'm all for it.  From legal, and perhaps corporate image standpoints I can understand why Kingsong would not want to provide the option.  That said, I've seen someone hack the Z10; which has a 995WH battery; to go 45mph.  I'm sure the same could be done to KS wheels by crazy Russian hackers.

that would be interesting... people have been able to mess with ninebot wheels forever though.. i havent ever heard of a single case of a KS board being hacked in any way though

[Feynman]

I wonder if I could possibly get the original thinner top pads from Kingsong?  Jack?  Yeah, I know I have fat giant calves

[Feynman]

19 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

We are going to need a complete redo on the motor windings or increase the voltage to 100+ volts if you want 35 mph on the S18. 

The V11 either has less resistance in the motor ( heavier or shorter wires) or They are back to calculating for a < 120 pound rider and people are going to get hurt. Given the new motor style I am going with the heavier wires in the motor. 

 The squeal of the KS motor when braking hard makes me think the coils aren't epoxied well (there's force pushing them apart as a function of current).   

[NYC One Roll]

2 hours ago, Feynman said:

https://www.photo-pick.com/online/vsbN.link

 

Took a quick ride down the gravel road.  Suspension is magicical.  20kph speed limit sucks balls.  It's 100 degrees out and I'm having some heart problems (covid related I think - 99% sure I had it all of January after spending NYE in downtown Boston), so I can't take a longer ride.  

sweet thanks, looks god damn sexy! I am sure it's even more gorgeous in person.

Sucks to hear about your heart problem, any medication / treatment for that? NYC is doing much better now in regards to the rest of the states. Opening back up SLOWLY but surely. 

 

 

[B08AH]

 

2 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

I as the end user, would like to be the final arbiter

GW lets you disable all safety features. KS does not. Just wait for GW Ex. Along with suspension, there is going to be so much speed and range, won't be disappointed. 

Better choose the wheel that was tailored to your needs, don't try to force your needs on the wheels that are not made for you.

 

PS I would want to ride Ex a couple times. 

[musk]

58 minutes ago, Feynman said:

 The squeal of the KS motor when braking hard makes me think the coils aren't epoxied well (there's force pushing them apart as a function of current).   

Wow that's what the sound is?  I had no idea that coil movement was a possibility.

[Feynman]

Just now, musk said:

Wow that's what the sound is?  I had no idea that coil movement was a possibility.

It could possible be capacitors on the control board, but I'd guess it's the coils creaking.  I could be wrong...

[Patton250]

I’m having déjà vu all over again. LOL. Every new wheel launch it’s the same old argument. People complain about the exact same things with every new wheel. First the batteries aren’t big enough and it won’t go far enough and then most importantly it won’t go fast enough. Then our resident experts chime in with all kinds of engineering numbers stating why the previously mention three complaints can’t be achieved. Then people argue with those guys citing the engineering numbers. I could be wrong but I would bet a one month coffee supply that the engineers at King song (and other wheel companies) read this stuff and laugh their asses off. Seriously go back and read last years Nikola and 16X threads. Hilarious.