[1860Wh MSX Warning - Oscillation!] Gotway Repeats The MSuper V3s+ Debacle of 2017

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Sure would be nice if Gotway could implement a small micro USB port on the controller or even use the charging USB ports as a firmware upload port using a flash drive.  Wouldn't that make things a lot more convenient to update wheels?  Maybe Gotway still fears that it might also be easier to decompile the firmware if they release software to the public?

If other manufacturers are providing through the app bluetooth wireless firmware updating without much fear, why is Gotway, a major leader in EUC making, still behind the times?  There must be some way to encrypt the firmware so that only the  onboard processor is able to decrypt it internally?

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

If other manufacturers are providing through the app bluetooth wireless firmware updating without much fear, why is Gotway, a major leader in EUC making, still behind the times?

A recent rumour says that GW has even admitted that the reason for the lack of upgradability is that due to various undocumented silent hardware upgrades the installer wouldn’t know which version of the firmware to install.

That sounds a bit unbelieveable though, even for GW.

...which I realise has been said about GW multiple times before already...

... and then exactly that has turned out to be true. 

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Sure would be nice if Gotway could implement a small micro USB port on the controller or even use the charging USB ports as a firmware upload port using a flash drive.  Wouldn't that make things a lot more convenient to update wheels?  Maybe Gotway still fears that it might also be easier to decompile the firmware if they release software to the public?

If other manufacturers are providing through the app bluetooth wireless firmware updating without much fear, why is Gotway, a major leader in EUC making, still behind the times?  There must be some way to encrypt the firmware so that only the  onboard processor is able to decrypt it internally?

I believe it's never going to happen with Gotway for reasons already explained.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That sounds a bit unbelieveable though, even for GW.

...which I realise has been said about GW multiple times before already...

... and then exactly that has turned out to be true. 

Electric unicycle manufacturers summed up in three sentences...

[FreeRide]

The reason probably has much more nefarious roots.  The truth is out there, and the forgotten child may hold the key.

[Jason McNeil]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A recent rumour says that GW has even admitted that the reason for the lack of upgradability is that due to various undocumented silent hardware upgrades the installer wouldn’t know which version of the firmware to install.

That sounds a bit unbelieveable though, even for GW.

...which I realise has been said about GW multiple times before already...

... and then exactly that has turned out to be true. 

It's true, even back in 2017 from the era of the first true oscillation bug, the firmware library had 3 variants for the same Wheel size & voltage. Since then, the boards have gone through a profusion of voltages, type & subtypes; I wouldn't be surprised if there's over 100+ firmware variants in the GW source library.  

Edited December 2, 2019 by Jason McNeil

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

That's odd.  I wonder why they can't write software that queries the processor to read the current revisions and controller specifications if needed (voltage variants), and appropriately choose which file version to flash.

Take for example computer motherboard BIOS updates.  Usually smarter firmware flash programs will verify the existing version and let you know if you are flashing a newer revision?  There must be a version identifier somewhere in the firmware that can be read and verified?  Maybe they have some sort of third party firmware programming source that is doing the work for them which they don't have full control over?  You would think though that the cost to direct their firmware supplier to include app updating would be a lot less than physically programming new boards, shipping them out, and replacing boards en masse.

Factor in the cost to their reputation, potential for rider injury, and expense to dealers managing this, and it just doesn't make economic sense to not introduce easy firmware updating measures.  Ninebot does it.  King Song does it.  InMotion does it.  Is anyone stealing their firmware?

Maybe someone needs to ask how much would a firmware OTA update development cost Gotway versus the expense of changing out large numbers of control boards?

Edit:  If they do develop app updated firmware, it should be easy then to keep track of firmware generations and modifications for future wheels.  Older wheels as long as they are functioning fine wouldn't need any upgrades.  For instance my Telsa has been fine for the past few years.  It's more for those "just in case" situations like these oscillation problems or fine tuning that easy to update firmware would make life a lot easier for all involved.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[xorbe]

13 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

That's odd.  I wonder why they can't write software that queries the processor to read the current revisions and controller specifications if needed (voltage variants), and appropriately choose which file version to flash.

Even if they had versioned and time stamped firmware, it sounds like they didn't even keep track of what they built.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

That may be true, but for future wheel generations with new control boards that have app capable update abilities, it should be pretty trivial to record firmware versions with wheel / board serial numbers and offer updates on a as-needed basis.  Judging by their past history of problems, Gotway could think of it as an insurance policy against costly board replacements.  Once it's implemented it's always there if people need it.

King Song tweaks it's firmware and releases new versions.  Even my Ninebot E+ had a series of firmware versions.   It's pretty much standard with any computer motherboard to be firmware upgradeable.  People continually ask about what features we want for the future.  I think this is one important one that shouldn't be overlooked.

Gotway granted us speakers for music, lights for visibility and entertainment, larger axles that don't break, thicker wiring that doesn't melt, machine screws with brass mounting inserts, varied wheel diameters, bigger batteries, and faster speeds.  OTA app enabled firmware updates I think should be a natural next step in their product evolution.  Who wants to deal with swapping control boards or shipping wheels around just to update firmware glitches?
 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Marty Backe]

49 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

That may be true, but for future wheel generations with new control boards that have app capable update abilities, it should be pretty trivial to record firmware versions with wheel / board serial numbers and offer updates on a as-needed basis.  Judging by their past history of problems, Gotway could think of it as an insurance policy against costly board replacements.  Once it's implemented it's always there if people need it.

King Song tweaks it's firmware and releases new versions.  Even my Ninebot E+ had a series of firmware versions.   It's pretty much standard with any computer motherboard to be firmware upgradeable.  People continually ask about what features we want for the future.  I think this is one important one that shouldn't be overlooked.

Gotway granted us speakers for music, lights for visibility and entertainment, larger axles that don't break, thicker wiring that doesn't melt, machine screws with brass mounting inserts, varied wheel diameters, bigger batteries, and faster speeds.  OTA app enabled firmware updates I think should be a natural next step in their product evolution.  Who wants to deal with swapping control boards or shipping wheels around just to update firmware glitches?
 

For all these years you continue to attempt to apply Western sensibilities to these Chinese companies. It's time to give it up @Hunka Hunka Burning Love 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

22 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

For all these years you continue to attempt to apply Western sensibilities to these Chinese companies. It's time to give it up @Hunka Hunka Burning Love 

Never!!!    We just need to complain... er suggest ideas enough, and it will come true!  That's one of the things I like about Gotway.  You might think they aren't listening and watching , but I think they are!  They just aren't directly interacting with us, yet a lot of our suggestions do seem to be heard by someone over there.  I call him Santa Gotway .

Keep the faith, Master Backe.  Do not be seduced by the dark side!  Believe you must!  Remember how we mentioned perhaps using thermal wire sleeving as insulation as a way to reduce wire melts and shorts?  It didn't happen overnight, but it does seem to have become a standard feature and for the best really.  We don't hear about @meepmeepmayer style wire melts that much any more.  I wished for machine screw and brass keepers for mounting shell pieces, and we got them.  We also hoped for lights and music features, and we were rewarded with Tesla lights and Nikola speakers!

Now everyone close their eyes and wish really hard for app updateable firmware via bluetooth for Christmas!!    If it happens, you owe me another paycheque!    Pension paycheques are always welcome!

Edited December 4, 2019 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[ZenRyder]

26 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Never!!!    We just need to complain... er suggest ideas enough, and it will come true!  That's one of the things I like about Gotway.  You might think they aren't listening and watching , but I think they are!  They just aren't directly interacting with us, yet a lot of our suggestions do seem to be heard by someone over there.  I call him Santa Gotway .

Keep the faith, Master Backe.  Do not be seduced by the dark side!  Remember how we mentioned perhaps using thermal wire sleeving as insulation to reduce wire melts and shorts?  It didn't happen overnight, but it does seem to have become a standard feature and for the best really.  We don't hear about @meepmeepmayer style wire melts that much any more.  I wished for machine screw and brass keepers for mounting shell pieces, and we got them.  We also hoped for lights and music features, and we were rewarded with Tesla lights and Nikola speakers!

Now everyone close their eyes and wish really hard for app updateable firmware via bluetooth for Christmas!!    If it happens, you owe me another paycheque!    Pension paycheques are always welcome!

 This might be the funniest thing I've read on this forum. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love you da man! ROFLMAO!!

I agree that there have been a lot of Gotway improvements. All the glass half full people realize that Gotway just needs to see the light. After getting kicked around on this forum and having to send Jason a big shipment of boards several times, it's got to make them with they could just push out a firmware update and "fix" the issues. Sure having a hot mess of existing boards out there will complicate matters, but it wouldn't be that hard to start with version xyz.1.1 and allow field updatable firmware going forward. It would be a big deal and plenty of people would want to upgrade and buy new wheels because of that feature alone. It future proofs your purchase.

Hello Gotway! Want to increase sales? Add the ability to upgrade the firmware. Bingo. $$$ Caaaching!

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

 This might be the funniest thing I've read on this forum. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love you da man! ROFLMAO!!

I agree that there have been a lot of Gotway improvements. All the glass half full people realize that Gotway just needs to see the light. After getting kicked around on this forum and having to send Jason a big shipment of boards several times, it's got to make them with they could just push out a firmware update and "fix" the issues. Sure having a hot mess of existing boards out there will complicate matters, but it wouldn't be that hard to start with version xyz.1.1 and allow field updatable firmware going forward. It would be a big deal and plenty of people would want to upgrade and buy new wheels because of that feature alone. It future proofs your purchase.

Hello Gotway! Want to increase sales? Add the ability to upgrade the firmware. Bingo. $$$ Caaaching!

Here we go - another Hunka Hunka 

[Rehab1]

6 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Now everyone close their eyes and wish really hard for app updateable firmware via bluetooth for Christmas!!   

 

 

[esaj]

Even if they have 100+ previous configurations/firmware modifications, that's not a reason not to make the firmware OTA-upgradeable for the future models. The old ones wouldn't support the upgrade anyway. Saying that they "can't do this because there's so many revisions out there" is a moot point, basically they're just saying that they don't want to manage and track their production at the level required.

I write vehicular ECU-bootloaders nowadays for living, it's not really super complicated to do. What is complicated, is the "tracking" of a vehicle life-cycle, with all the "birth certificates" (what ECUs / other hardware components & revisions / firmwares etc the vehicle contains at manufacturing date) and maintenance / repair tracking (firmware updates, replaced components etc). It certainly adds up to the time and cost of production & maintenance.

"Some modern motor vehicles have up to 80 ECUs. Embedded software in ECUs continues to increase in line count, complexity, and sophistication.[2] Managing the increasing complexity and number of ECUs in a vehicle has become a key challenge for original equipment manufacturers (OEMs)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_control_unit

But wheels have only one MCU (MicroController Unit, I guess if stretching the definitions, the entire mainboard could be called an "ECU") running a single piece of firmware. It should be much, much simpler, if they just keep good track of what board revisions, peripheral devices (BT-audio, lights etc), motor and firmware revisions are there in model XYZ, along with proper version "stamping" (hardware and software) so that the bootloader knows to reject incompatible firmware as a failsafe, and can tell the "programming device" (ie. an app in a mobile phone for wheels) the hardware & software configuration of the wheel, so that the app knows to fetch the compatible firmware version. It's not even complicated to make it possible to update the bootloader itself (which is actually required in ECUs) through the same software and communication method which is used for updating the firmware itself, ie. without any special-purpose programming device that would need to be shipped back and forth between reseller and manufacturer, or separately purchased by the reseller. Whether it happens over-the-air with Bluetooth or over CAN-bus, doesn't really make much of a difference from the the functional standpoint.

Edited December 6, 2019 by esaj

[Hsiang]

To throw a wrench into this; this feels very similar to the issue I am experiencing on my Monster v3, except that it is mostly noticeable at speed above 20mph, and the oscillation looks faster. But other characteristic is similar; the wheel will oscillate forward and back when I accelerate and be amplified by any bumps.

I did not get the wheel from Jason, and the other  person whom got the same batch @Ben Kim did not have this issue, but I think he replaced his control board due to his wheel being burned during the delivery process. so that might have addressed the issue also.

Should I look into replacing my board?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Hsiang

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

Should I look into replacing my board?

I'm going to say yes for the selfish reason that I want to see if a new board changes anything Also I don't see what else could cause such symptoms (like you describe) other than the oscillation bug being present in the Monster firmware in some way, too.

Questions are: How do you make sure a new Monster board has different firmware? Why would they even change the Monster firmware if no problem is reported like with the MSX?

So maybe... wait? No point in getting a new board if it's the same as the old board. But eventually I think you should replace the board.

We need more info on what causes this kind of bug and if anything has been changed due to this

Edited December 7, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

To throw a wrench into this; this feels very similar to the issue I am experiencing on my Monster v3, except that it is mostly noticeable at speed above 20mph, and the oscillation looks faster. But other characteristic is similar; the wheel will oscillate forward and back when I accelerate and be amplified by any bumps.

I did not get the wheel from Jason, and the other  person whom got the same batch @Ben Kim did not have this issue, but I think he replaced his control board due to his wheel being burned during the delivery process. so that might have addressed the issue also.

Should I look into replacing my board?

There should be zero back-and-forth oscillations at any speed on any Gotway wheel. It sucks that you didn't get the wheel from Jason so you may be stuck with footing the bill yourself.

I understand your hesitancy, but I can assure you that your Monster should be steady as rock.

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

To throw a wrench into this; this feels very similar to the issue I am experiencing on my Monster v3, except that it is mostly noticeable at speed above 20mph, and the oscillation looks faster. But other characteristic is similar; the wheel will oscillate forward and back when I accelerate and be amplified by any bumps.

I did not get the wheel from Jason, and the other  person whom got the same batch @Ben Kim did not have this issue, but I think he replaced his control board due to his wheel being burned during the delivery process. so that might have addressed the issue also.

Should I look into replacing my board?

My board came from Wheeltech on Aliexpress, no oscillation problems or ridability issues. Axle nut is also holding since I applied Loctite red. 

Also, you did not have this issue from when you received the wheel. This happened after your axle nut coming loose multiple times and a couple of drops, so i’d investigate elsewhere and rule them out before you drop any money on a new board. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by Ben Kim

[Hsiang]

25 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

My board came from Wheeltech on Aliexpress, no oscillation problems or ridability issues. Axle nut is also holding since I applied Loctite red. 

Also, you did not have this issue from when you received the wheel. This happened after your axle nut coming loose multiple times and a couple of drops, so i’d investigate elsewhere and rule them out before you drop any money on a new board. 

It took me a while before I start pushing my speed much past 20mph, also, since I came from riding the z10 I am use to the wheel shaking violently while I am on it at speed.. LOL. it doesn't bother me that much so I'll give it some more time, but it is annoying since it is pronounce above 35mph and basically puts a cap on my speed.

[Planemo]

Its early days but I did a quick ride today 20mins/4miles lots of stop/start/corners/25mph runs and didnt have any oscillation problems on my new 84v 1860Wh. Fingers crossed as I havent given it a proper shakedown yet but it appears that maybe this is indeed constrained to the 100v models.

My rear light is operating normally (FWIW) and also my buzzer is in the usual place (again FWIW).

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Planemo

[Nothereanymore]

10 hours ago, Planemo said:

Its early days but I did a quick ride today 20mins/4miles lots of stop/start/corners/25mph runs and didnt have any oscillation problems on my new 84v 1860Wh. Fingers crossed as I havent given it a proper shakedown yet but it appears that maybe this is indeed constrained to the 100v models.

My rear light is operating normally (FWIW) and also my buzzer is in the usual place (again FWIW).

 

 

Uhh..where's the extra battery pack...?  You sure you don't have an 84v 1600wh?  That's what it looks like..

[Planemo]

Its on the other side.

[spiritofsands]

On 12/8/2019 at 7:00 PM, Planemo said:

Its early days but I did a quick ride today 20mins/4miles lots of stop/start/corners/25mph runs and didnt have any oscillation problems on my new 84v 1860Wh. Fingers crossed as I havent given it a proper shakedown yet but it appears that maybe this is indeed constrained to the 100v models.

My rear light is operating normally (FWIW) and also my buzzer is in the usual place (again FWIW).

...

AFAIK the oscillation problem is related to 100V model with 1600+Wh battery only, it has different firmware.

I hope @Jason McNeil will bring us good news with those fixed controllers from Gotway.

[Jason McNeil]

5 hours ago, spiritofsands said:

AFAIK the oscillation problem is related to 100V model with 1600+Wh battery only, it has different firmware.

I hope @Jason McNeil will bring us good news with those fixed controllers from Gotway.

The MSX controller firmware is not necessarily linked to the larger battery capacities, just that in our batch, Gotway had probably loaded the wrong type. They sent us a small supply of boards a few weeks ago, which spontaneously failed within minutes of powering on. Another [tested] batch of boards is now on the way, expected arrival by mid-week, news to follow...