16x 16x Issues Thread

[Tazarinho]

15 hours ago, Ddolik said:

Thanks. And in summer? Does the range get better? and by what amount

I certainly hope so! I'd expect to get 5 to 10 km more out of it at most.
But can't say for the 16X as I've only had it since december

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

18 hours ago, Ddolik said:

Thanks. And in summer? Does the range get better? and by what amount

Check these both tours. The same route, riding style and speed.

Oktober @ 20°C
Start with just 74% battery / 78,6 V and break after 28km with 34% / 72,8V battery left = 5,8V drop after 28km
https://euc.world/tour/579751192490005

Dezember @ 3°C
Start with full 100% battery / 83,7 V. No break, but after same distance (28km) I had also 36% / 72,8V battery left = 10,9V drop after 28km
https://euc.world/tour/581345128610282

 

[Ddolik]

Thanks.

 

I need my phone navigation to use the speakers in the EUC, so instead of not hearing it in my pocket, i will hear it from the wheel speaker. So far no luck.

[EvoKnvl]

4 hours ago, Ddolik said:

Thanks.

 

I need my phone navigation to use the speakers in the EUC, so instead of not hearing it in my pocket, i will hear it from the wheel speaker. So far no luck.

What phone and app are you using? Are you connecting to KingsongSongMusic via Bluetooth?  If so, some apps let you choose where you want to output the navigation.  For example, under google maps settings ---> Navigation settings, there is an option to play voice over Bluetooth.  If it's not enabled, it will play through your speaker even if it's connected to a BT device.  Hope that helps!

 

[Ddolik]

"KingsongSongMusic"

 

Yeah, I think this will do it. Thanks

[Azazel]

My 16x will no longer play music. Ive turned the switch on and off and reinstalled the app. Anyone else have this problem?

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Is the phone connected with KingSongMusic? 

Is the volume in the King Song App maybe set to 0?

Edited January 26, 2020 by buell47

[Azazel]

11 hours ago, buell47 said:

Is the phone connected with KingSongMusic? 

Is the volume in the King Song App maybe set to 0?

Nah i have an iphone (dont see that on the app store so im assuming thats a android app). Its not the volume i tried messing with it

[Tazarinho]

On 12/25/2019 at 11:37 AM, Skecys said:

I have to calibrate the wheel a lot, is this normal? Whenever I let it sit for a couple of days (tilted on its nose) and then take it out, it dips a lot when turning to one side and tilts back to the other (on sharp turns). I have tried calibrating meticulously using bubble ruler as well as quick ones using a stair. Same result. A calibration does fix the issue temporarily though. 

Also the running leds seem to turn off at high speed and come back on when slowing down? Will need to run more tests.

Did a new board finally solve these issues?

Seems to be getting worse on my side, have calibrated a couple of times, including with a level and doesn't seem to make a difference. It seems like the pedals tilt back when I turn right and tilt forward when I turn left.

[Skecys]

1 hour ago, Tazarinho said:

Did a new board finally solve these issues?

Seems to be getting worse on my side, have calibrated a couple of times, including with a level and doesn't seem to make a difference. It seems like the pedals tilt back when I turn right and tilt forward when I turn left.

Sounds exactly like what I was experiencing. I had to send the unit back to my dealer, they just received it. I expect to have it back in a week or two. I will post an update when I do of course but I think you should contact your dealer as well. It is by no means normal behavior. 

[Tazarinho]

I usually ride without using an app, but in light of the above issues, I considered logging part of my commute home in the evening on Friday, to see if there were any anomalies.
I decided to use EUC-World for this.

First thing that struck me when I arrived is that it said that my top speed had been over 40 km/h. This is strange because my first alarm is set at 35 km/h, second at 37 km/h and third plus tiltback both at 40 km/h. So it seems the colorful lights aren't the only thing that stop working..... It's true I had been puzzled by the fact that I was sometimes getting a speed warning, when I felt that I had been going faster before, without a warning. Or that I passed a speed indicator saying 39 km/h, but I assumed it was just detecting a car behind me.

Anyway. I logged the ride Friday, and another one this morning, but I have trouble interpreting them. Could anyone a bit more tech savvy have a look and see if there is anything else that seems worrying, and that I should include, when I contact my dealer.

Here are the links: https://euc.world/tour/583199269410150  and https://euc.world/tour/583283618697049
What are the long straight lines? Did I lose the bluetooth connection, or does EUC World stop logging if my phone goes into sleep mode?

So in summary, what I should contact my dealer about:

• Pedals tilt when turning, right = tilt back, left = tilt to front. Calibrating helps to make he symptoms milder, but regresses to nigh impossible to ride over time.
• Colored LED-lights freeze randomly, getting stuck, or disappear completely, at speeds over 25 km/h. Slowing down or braking always brings them back (so far).
• Speed warnings and tiltback sometimes work, but mostly don't. Was able to push pas 40 km/h, which are my 3d warning and tiltback speed Didn't dare push harder as I have trouble trusting the wheel, at this stage.
• Anything else? bluetooth lost during ride? Any thoughts?

[DjPanJan]

40 minutes ago, Tazarinho said:

 

• Anything else? bluetooth lost during ride? Any thoughts?

Is normal if you are somewhere where is many bluetooth devices signal can disconect and whellog/eucworld stop working. It hapend to me often if i have on V10F bluetooth music on conected ticwatch pro and i ride around group of people (train station/group of tennagers etc.) Bluetooth music start make lags/distoration and BT disconect my eucworld. Solution is not use "hearth" pocket and use jeans pocket close to V10F.  Problem is in phone just have weak bluetooth module i own galaxy S7 maybee is bluetooth unit in you KS16X weak too.   Intresting is i have "new/changed" mainboard old one not do any problems new start disconecting. I not own ks16x. 

[Tazarinho]

30 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

Is normal if you are somewhere where is many bluetooth devices signal can disconect and whellog/eucworld stop working. It hapend to me often if i have on V10F bluetooth music on conected ticwatch pro and i ride around group of people (train station/group of tennagers etc.) Bluetooth music start make lags/distoration and BT disconect my eucworld. Solution is not use "hearth" pocket and use jeans pocket close to V10F.  Problem is in phone just have weak bluetooth module i own galaxy S7 maybee is bluetooth unit in you KS16X weak too.   Intresting is i have "new/changed" mainboard old one not do any problems new start disconecting. I not own ks16x. 

Ahoj, @DjPanJan, thank you.

I wear cargo trousers and my phone is in one of the leg pockets, so quite close to the wheel.
But my phone isn't exactly high-end, so it might very well have a weak bluetooth module indeed.

[ABS Knut]

May be a silly question but when I am charging my wheel with the stock 1.5 amp charger the wheel turns on and connects to bluetooth. It will then stay on in a weird sleeper mode. There is a red light glowing from the inside that stays on even when I unplug it.

This wouldn't really be an issue except that for some reason it seems to randomly beep 5 times in the middle of the night. I know for a fact that it does this while plugged in and fully charged. So I assume it has something to do with the cells balancing maybe? 

Anyone else have this issue?

I also live in a studio so I can't put it in a different room.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

This is not a bug, but a damn security feature since firmware 1.0.7.

It is a reminder that it is best to remove the charger so that it will not continue to charge in trickle mode for so long. Bad for all batterys.

Additionally you get the special feature that the wheel won't switch itself off completely if it has been in trickle mode for too long after you removed the charger.
Then you have to turn the wheel on once and then off again.

Buy a timer or a smart socket with a timer function, but then you have to calculate the running times how long it should charge.

I use a fast charger from 1radwerkstatt.de and this switches off completely after balancing (or 80 / 90% ) and does not remain in trickle mode. (looks like the one from eWheels, but the eWheel charger stays in trickle mode from what I've heard)
So I don't have an annoying alarm in the middle of the night and/or a half turned on wheel that I have to turn on and off manually.

[Seba]

7 hours ago, Tazarinho said:

First thing that struck me when I arrived is that it said that my top speed had been over 40 km/h.

But this was just GPS speed glitch, so don't worry. Your highest EUC reported speed was 40 km/h (in second tour, in first you reached 37 km/h max). As GPS speed in long-term is more reliable, some momentary glitches are not uncommon. You should always look at the "Statistics" page. Another thing is that you should disable battery optimization for EUC World or relocate your phone so it will get better GPS signal reception.

[ABS Knut]

7 hours ago, buell47 said:

This is not a bug, but a damn security feature since firmware 1.0.7.

It is a reminder that it is best to remove the charger so that it will not continue to charge in trickle mode for so long. Bad for all batterys.

Additionally you get the special feature that the wheel won't switch itself off completely if it has been in trickle mode for too long after you removed the charger.
Then you have to turn the wheel on once and then off again.

Buy a timer or a smart socket with a timer function, but then you have to calculate the running times how long it should charge.

I use a fast charger from 1radwerkstatt.de and this switches off completely after balancing (or 80 / 90% ) and does not remain in trickle mode. (looks like the one from eWheels, but the eWheel charger stays in trickle mode from what I've heard)
So I don't have an annoying alarm in the middle of the night and/or a half turned on wheel that I have to turn on and off manually.

I mean I'm all for treating batteries properly but that's rather annoying. I think I may get a fast charger from ewheels because even if it doesn't fix the trickle. It will be done fully charging before I have to go to bed lol.

BTW anyone have any explanations to what changes in the lighting modes? I'm trying to use the app but I don't see much difference between them.

[Tazarinho]

16 hours ago, Seba said:

But this was just GPS speed glitch, so don't worry. Your highest EUC reported speed was 40 km/h (in second tour, in first you reached 37 km/h max). As GPS speed in long-term is more reliable, some momentary glitches are not uncommon. You should always look at the "Statistics" page. Another thing is that you should disable battery optimization for EUC World or relocate your phone so it will get better GPS signal reception.

Still, if I reached 40 in the second, shouldn't I have had all three warnings and tilt-back?
Especially since KingSong overestimates the speed by some percentages?
 

[xorbe]

On 2/3/2020 at 8:44 AM, buell47 said:

This is not a bug, but a damn security feature since firmware 1.0.7.

It is a reminder that it is best to remove the charger so that it will not continue to charge in trickle mode for so long. Bad for all batterys.

Additionally you get the special feature that the wheel won't switch itself off completely if it has been in trickle mode for too long after you removed the charger.
Then you have to turn the wheel on once and then off again.

Buy a timer or a smart socket with a timer function, but then you have to calculate the running times how long it should charge.

I use a fast charger from 1radwerkstatt.de and this switches off completely after balancing (or 80 / 90% ) and does not remain in trickle mode. (looks like the one from eWheels, but the eWheel charger stays in trickle mode from what I've heard)
So I don't have an annoying alarm in the middle of the night and/or a half turned on wheel that I have to turn on and off manually.

There is NO WAY that it is trickle charging lithium batteries.  Link to source please.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, xorbe said:

There is NO WAY that it is trickle charging lithium batteries.  Link to source please.

If it doesn't stay in trickle charge mode, what is the reason that the 16X, V8, V5F doesn't turn off after charging / balancing is done and only a small current flows?

The source is my brain, so it can not provide a link.

[Seba]

5 hours ago, buell47 said:

If it doesn't stay in trickle charge mode, what is the reason that the 16X, V8, V5F doesn't turn off after charging / balancing is done and only a small current flows?

It's because "trickle charging" term is sometimes used for "constant voltage" charge. There are similarities but there are also some differences. Trickle charging means that when charging process  ends, some small current is still flowing thru the battery to compensate for self-discharge. Charger voltage is higher than battery full charge voltage. It is used in lead acid or NiMH batteries. 

In case of LiIon batteries you can't use real "trickle charging" and there must be constant, precisely regulated voltage applied to the battery that is equal to 4.2 V * count of serially connected cells. Current flowing thru cells is negligible and what you can see is the balancing current (flowing thru shunt resistors) and small current taken by controller board. LiIon chargers are CC/CV chargers. Charging starts with some limited, constant current flowing thru battery causing its voltage to rise. When voltage will reach full charge voltage (84 V in case of KS-16X), it stays constant but current starts to drop. This is the "constant voltage" phase. Some chargers turns off after current will drop below some value, some don't. This cut out feature will improve charging safety, but will prevent battery from balancing. That's why most EUC chargers doesn't use cut off feature.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Does this mean that the original chargers (or those without a cut-off function) do not continue to charge the battery at all after balancing, or that they do not maintain the charge? Then why has King Song been doing this safety crap since 1.0.7?

If my charger switches off when reaching approximately 270mAh, are the cells not balanced at all, just a little bit or how is that to be understood?

[Chriull]

5 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Does this mean that the original chargers (or those without a cut-off function) do not continue to charge the battery at all after balancing, or that they do not maintain the charge? Then why has King Song been doing this safety crap since 1.0.7?

From https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

 

"Figure 1 shows the voltage and current signature as lithium-ion passes through the stages for constant current and topping charge. Full charge is reached when the current decreases to between 3 and 5 percent of the Ah rating."

 

"Li-ion cannot absorb overcharge. When fully charged, the charge current must be cut off. A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium and compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the peak cut-off as short as possible."

 

5 minutes ago, buell47 said:

If my charger switches off when reaching approximately 270mAh, are the cells not balanced at all, just a little bit or how is that to be understood?

Balancing is (mostly) done while stage 2 (saturation charge/CV stage) shown in figure 1.

If this stage does not suffice to balance the cells it's best to discharge the batteries a little bit and redo the charge (mainly stage 2 where the balancing happens)

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

I may not have expressed myself technically correct, but batteryuniversity.com also says "In lieu of trickle charge, some chargers apply a topping charge when the voltage drops.
This is exactly what I am talking about because it is also a form of trickle charge, or not?

If this type of trickle charging topping charge is not dangerous, why does King Song think up such nonsense with the alarm to get the charger removed.

Edited February 5, 2020 by buell47

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

I may not have expressed myself technically correct, but batteryuniversity.com also says "In lieu of trickle charge, some chargers apply a topping charge when the voltage drops.
This is exactly what I am talking about because it is also a form of trickle charge, or not?

Yes - it's a form. But since

"A continuous trickle charge would cause plating of metallic lithium and compromise safety. To minimize stress, keep the lithium-ion battery at the peak cut-off as short as possible."

"

this topping charge should only occur after longer time for a short period.

Quote

If this type of trickle charging topping charge is not dangerous, why does King Song think up such nonsense with the alarm to get the charger removed.

The continous trickle charge is dangerous.

A topping charge is stressing, depending how often it happens.

To my knowledge (?all?) the stock chargers cut charging off. They have the three trim potentiometers (max voltage, max current, cutoff current threshold).

If they never cutoff, they imho have just the cutoff current threshold misadjusted to a too low value.

I've never heard of such a stock charger doing such topping charges.

If such stock chargers without a current threshold cutoff exist - they are just dangerous and are not to be used for charging liion cells!

PS: but dangerous is relative - the BMS cuts off too once one single cell reaches an overvoltage.

So forever running chargers seem to have the cutoff current threshold set to below the balancing current and all the balancing resistors for the cells are active in the BMS.

That would "just" keep the cells in the "stressy" absolutely full state but not "dangerously" overcharge them.

... still stupid the remove a safety measure by not adjusting the charger right...