EUC Legality Chart

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

15 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Wow! This one has gone way off the rails since I last checked in. I thought that we were talking about a list of regulations that exists for the edification of the EUC community. I feel that a list like this will help those of us who enjoy traveling to stay in compliance when we travel. How could clearer knowledge about any regulations governing what we do be a bad thing? Neither The CIA, FBI, or the Secret Service are watching EUCs. I ride through the White House grounds frequently and get 👍🏿 by Secret Service. The Men in Black are not about to flash the pen light in our faces over EUCs.

Ha ha ha.   Well said @Lutalo...  this thread is pretty funny but kinda ridiculous.   I mean REALLY.   if they are the law,   They know the law.  They don’t need to search through thousands of forums and threads to find the one little chart that an euc rider made to keep ya informed.. this is just about as silly as the guy who thinks kind song is spying on us because of the permissions on his phone..  I mean come on.    To be that paranoid you’ve gotta be doing something sketchy .. seems like this argument is just well... ridiculous    I like to be informed .    This little chart isn’t going to change anything.    Sorry but I just had to say something.   It was hurting my head.  lol.   

[Esper]

19 hours ago, Smoother said:

I don't think people who ride in legal areas have a right to ask for or create this list.  You have no skin in the game.  If you're legal.  Be happy about it.  But leave the rest of us alone.  What is it to you if someone in a non- legal area buys one without knowing the legality.  There are plenty of people riding , knowingly in illegal countries, what is the tragedy if one more buys one?  Certainly none to you.  Please give it a rest; your casual curiosity bring more danger to those not blessed by living in a legal zone.  This is not a subject for your casual curiosity. Your insistence is quite frankly, insulting.  Especially now that the issues for those of us WITH skin in the game have been spelled out to you.

Your concern to help a hypothetical unsuspecting buyer, puts all the real owners in illegal countries at risk of more people knowing what we do is illegal. And the more that know that the greater the chance that the information will eventually jeopardize a rider.  Your point about Seatle cops not knowing their own law is PRECISLY why I don't want this list, because I want my police and the police in all the other illegal countries to remain mostly in the dark for as long as possible.  You don't think police officer search the internet for information too?

My next act is to remove my country from my profile, So I can't directly be a victim of someones "good idea"

If you buy a potentially illegal items online from a vendor like Amazon, there is a box that says "Legal Disclaimers" are you really saying that selling an item that's illegal in an area shouldn't be advertised?? It'd be like buying Cocaine from the gas station. If you know it's illegal before you buy it, you may not want to buy it. 

But I really want to try and work this through with your mode of thought. So let me try..

I want to buy a [XXXX] online. It costs me £1200-1500 to get it and about 3-5 weeks of waiting. Item doesn't matter, it's vague and no one really knows about it but I'll display it in public daily. Local law marks the item as illegal but I want one anyways. I want to keep it and use it as long as possible but keep everyone around me in the dark about it. What do I do? Check all that apply.

• I delete all my online information,
• I ride dangerously in congested traffic near pedestrians,
• I proudly show off my illegal device in public,
• I teach the general public about the device and how useful it can be,
• I practice safe riding habits near people and slow down near pedestrians,
• I petition for local changes in the law for the item,
• I spread information about the device(s) so that interested parties that want their own can purchase one,
• I explain to potential buyers that the device is illegal and can potentially be confiscated,
• I ignore all questions and keep my neighborhood in the dark,

Look, honestly Smoother. You can do whatever you want with your free time and so can other people as well. If some person wants to make a wikipedia page about you, it's out of your hands. If you truly think that this one list will be the end of your riding days then I'm sorry. There are hundreds of Facebook groups about EUCs, YouTube videos, Websites, and even a Reddit page. The information is out there and compiling a list of where something is illegal or legal can effectively push local governments to change laws by having local petitions. If some father saw you riding down the street, thought it was cool and wanted to get one for his son, tried to stop you to get a little information about where you bought it but you sped past him and ignored him, he may feel a little jaded by that encounter. If you stopped, told him where you got it, how much they were, and that they are not allowed but you ride it anyways, he could potentially be a tally for a vote to pass legality on these machines. Not every interaction with the public has to be a bad one and you reap what you sow. If you talk with people that have problems with you or your EUC, you could sway their opinions on the thing much more than a red box that says "illegal" on a google spreadsheet. 

Marijuana is illegal across a lot of the world still and has been for a very long time. Yet with public outreach, petitions, rallies, and public knowledge, we got it legalized in a bunch of places. That legality list is a lot smaller than the list for EUCs with more places marked as illegal than not.

I don't know what you're expecting Smoother, but it sounds to me like you're playing with fire because there are many people near you that know you that have reasons to get revenge on you for some reason. If that's the case, then perhaps you can start trying to be a better person that people won't want to hate. If I were in your shoes, I'd host public workshops on learning how to ride an EUC and general safety interactions with pedestrians and hold these on private land. Petition the local law or government to join in on the workshop and answer any questions they may have. 

The ignorant are always afraid of what they don't know, so teach them, make them less afraid, and maybe you might get it legalized.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Esper

[Marty Backe]

10 hours ago, TomOnWheels said:

Marty, on your profile picture I see that you even hide yourself ! May I ask a question: are you the real Batman ? ;-)

  Not my Signature though, or YouTube channel 

[Unventor]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

  Not my Signature though, or YouTube channel 

@Marty Backe s signature and channel or batman's? 

[Esper]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

  Not my Signature though, or YouTube channel 

With a week of searching, I could probably narrow down your house to a city block . But that's way too much work.. I'd actually like to take a trip out to California some time and ride with you Marty . It would be cool to have a once a year EUC convention that changes locations each year or something so the riders in other parts of the world can meet and greet. That would require so so much planning 

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Esper said:

With a week of searching, I could probably narrow down your house to a city block . But that's way too much work.. I'd actually like to take a trip out to California some time and ride with you Marty . It would be cool to have a once a year EUC convention that changes locations each year or something so the riders in other parts of the world can meet and greet. That would require so so much planning 

We are having the LA Games in October. I will be hosting rides the entire week prior. All my favorite locations.

[Unventor]

Just a few questions that co-side with thead title for travel purposes. 

Lets say you want to go to a country, how would you get your wheel with you beside traveling by car, train, bus as EUC are banned from practical all passager airlines?

Anyone know a simple and affordable solution rather that maybe renting a wheel? 

Example it is close to impossible to go from Europe to US bringing your EUC with you. Or like from Sweden to Greece. 

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Just a few questions that co-side with thead title for travel purposes. 

Lets say you want to go to a country, how would you get your wheel with you beside traveling by car, train, bus as EUC are banned from practical all passager airlines?

Anyone know a simple and affordable solution rather that maybe renting a wheel? 

Example it is close to impossible to go from Europe to US bringing your EUC with you. Or like from Sweden to Greece. 

For me, I think the only reliable way to do this is to ship (FedEx, etc) the wheel to your destination.

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

For me, I think the only reliable way to do this is to ship (FedEx, etc) the wheel to your destination.

It is very expensive to bring my future KS16X around to you 😉

I will have to work a half life time in a coal mine somewhere 😣

[Esper]

12 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Just a few questions that co-side with thead title for travel purposes. 

Lets say you want to go to a country, how would you get your wheel with you beside traveling by car, train, bus as EUC are banned from practical all passager airlines?

Anyone know a simple and affordable solution rather that maybe renting a wheel? 

Example it is close to impossible to go from Europe to US bringing your EUC with you. Or like from Sweden to Greece. 

As Marty said. Send it via Air Cargo. You can send the whole wheel or just the battery. I'm unsure on how they will react to a EUC without a battery though. Maybe good?

Batteries (above a certain limit) are banned from only passenger planes and not cargo planes. 

[Nils]

23 hours ago, Unventor said:

Currently rules in Sweden, simplyfied. (new rules might come into play, mainly target escooters) 

Max speed 20kmh. otherwise classed as an e-bicycle. You can ride where cycles are allowed, unless you go about 20kmh. 

EUC do not have max effect limitations to the motor as it is self-balancing. 

If you ride faster than 20kmh (not really clear if it is technical possible or set limitations that counts) you can seek registration as an (e) moped, meaning need of insurance too.

NOTE: At this point in time I don't know exactly how to go about this. Apparently you do this by the police. 

Police enforcement: ride nicely and you stay under the rader. Personally I have not had any issues yet. 

Source: only found Swedish version. 

https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/Trafikregler/Cyklist-mopedist-motorcyklist/Trafikregler/Regler-for-cykel/

Thanks Unventor. Unfortunately I have to qualify this in a less pleasing way, which is that it's considered a bike if it's self balancing and "constructed for a maximum speed of 20 km/h". That would disqualify pretty much all modern wheels. I wish the restriction was actually based on actual speed limits, but alas.. (I've updated the form).

Edited July 9, 2019 by Nils

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

We are having the LA Games in October. I will be hosting rides the entire week prior. All my favorite locations.

I am soooo coming down to LA for these games I’m trying to get as many peeps from Seattle to come down with me as I can . and am planning on taking you up on showing us around so cal  on our wheels .. I can’t wait ! 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

I am soooo coming down to LA for these games I’m trying to get as many peeps from Seattle to come down with me as I can . and am planning on taking you up on showing us around so cal  on our wheels .. I can’t wait ! 

Cool. Be sure to register for the games because there aren't unlimited openings for that.

I need to start planning the rides. These will all be for 1600wh type wheels. I'm hosting tours for the kind of riding that I like. Rides friendlier for newbies will have to be arranged by others.

Beach riding. River trail riding. Mountain riding. You'll get it all 

[Esper]

22 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

I am soooo coming down to LA for these games I’m trying to get as many peeps from Seattle to come down with me as I can . and am planning on taking you up on showing us around so cal  on our wheels .. I can’t wait ! 

Dude... Road Trip!?!?  I'll put up for gas and, depending on the size of the group, pitch in to get a large hotel room. I'll even sleep on the floor  

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Cool. Be sure to register for the games because there aren't unlimited openings for that.

I need to start planning the rides. These will all be for 1600wh type wheels. I'm hosting tours for the kind of riding that I like. Rides friendlier for newbies will have to be arranged by others.

Beach riding. River trail riding. Mountain riding. You'll get it all 

So.. Where can I find more info on these "LA Games" you speak of? Will there be any Mten3 friendly rides? 

Edit: I found a calendar, are you talking about IndieCade?
https://www.events12.com/losangeles/october/

Edited July 9, 2019 by Esper

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, Esper said:

Dude... Road Trip!?!?  I'll put up for gas and, depending on the size of the group, pitch in to get a large hotel room. I'll even sleep on the floor  

So.. Where can I find more info on these "LA Games" you speak of? Will there be any Mten3 friendly rides? 

Edit: I found a calendar, are you talking about IndieCade?
https://www.events12.com/losangeles/october/

http://www.laeucgames.com/

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

1 hour ago, Esper said:

Dude... Road Trip!?!?  I'll put up for gas and, depending on the size of the group, pitch in to get a large hotel room. I'll even sleep on the floor  

So.. Where can I find more info on these "LA Games" you speak of? Will there be any Mten3 friendly rides? 

Edit: I found a calendar, are you talking about IndieCade?
https://www.events12.com/losangeles/october/

Heck yeah dude I am so down.  I’ve been talking to a few other riders in the area and trying to get them to go..  I need to look into registering...    but yes that sounds like an amazing week. I am definitely down and the more the merrier! 

Edit; looks like I’ll be registering on July 15th 👍👍   City of Angels here we come 🚀😎😁

Edited July 9, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver

[Boogieman]

On 7/8/2019 at 8:55 PM, Flyboy10 said:

Wondering if there is a chart someone has made that shows the legal status of wheels throughout the world. Could be helpful to those who are traveling. If a chart is not out there then please help by filling out this one. Feel free to manipulate the format if you feel there is a better way to display the info. I'd like it to be clear and concise though so it is easy to read/understand. Tagging people to get things started... @Kuji Rolls @Seba @Smoother @Henrik Olsen @Jimmy Chang @esaj @Lutalo

Here is a table made 2018 as pdf (unfortunately only in Swedish) on several countries.

It also shows accident statistics on page 25 (predominant with younger people 6-12 and then 13-18 for EUCs (single wheel balance board its called) green colour - While "two wheels with steering handle" (segway) are predominant on older people (25-44-64) probably because rental Segways was the only option at this time (and basically still is in a big perspective) and those were/are expensive to rent, too expensive for younger people mostly i guess and i hand mostly seen older people riding in those groups:-) ).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.trafikverket.se/contentassets/e93aee6024524c3e9db9f343cd5b2899/huvudrapport_eldrivna_enpersonsfordon_20180629.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjT5uCXranjAhWS2aYKHTZ9BPQQFjADegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2gM-pkiFoCMcz3eDN1vZqS&cshid=1562728492021

I prefer Norway where EUCs are allowed to do max 60km/h.

I mean a racing bicycle can reach those speeds (50 at least), why should it be less safe with a EUC?

EUCs:

- handles bumps in the asphalt better (a racing bike skinny tyre are pretty sensitive),

- brakes better/faster,

- turns just as fast and faster in slow turns,

- we have a much easier way of signaling turns (both hands are free)

 

Though they really need to set an age restriction on those rental VOI and the likes scooters, like 15 at least (15 you can ride a moped, but i am not sure if you need some kind of license today)

Some "Kids" in Sweden ride in a way that destroys the rep of electrical vehicles (riding 2 on a scooter, some with no clue about the rules like which side of the bicycle lane to ride on and so on). 

With regards you swedish law enforcement

The police has only been looking at me so far, one rode along me maybe half a minute on the road the other day when i did maybe 25-30 on the bicycle road, but didnt do anything else. Maybe just checked that i had all reflexes and lights or was maybe just interested...who knows. They have a lot worse things to deal with in Sweden anyway so I doubt they will start headhunting us, at least i hope so :-)

 

CLIMATE

It would really be an ill decision to ban EUCs (even by speed restricting) when everyone talks about saving the climate and mimimizing fossil fuels (cars). I have saved 2765km worth of gas since i got my Tesla by using it instead of cold starting the car every day i need to go shopping or visiting friends. That's more than 276 litres of gas with my car on one vehicle in less than one year. And then i haven't even accounted for my ninebot.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Boogieman

[RayBanMonster]

For those in the UK According to Surrey police, from article  Elderly woman seriously injured after being knocked over by unicycle -

"An electric cycle is a 'mechanically propelled vehicle', meaning anyone wishing to use them on the roads need to

• register with the DVLA,
• insure them,
• pay tax on them,
• hold a valid driving licence
• and wear a helmet.  "

Geez...

[Marty Backe]

I hope @Smoother didn't decide to bail from the Forum. He seemed pretty upset about this whole thread and his privacy, and he hasn't returned since. ~5-days.

[esaj]

On 7/9/2019 at 9:43 PM, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Ha ha ha.   Well said @Lutalo...  this thread is pretty funny but kinda ridiculous.   I mean REALLY.   if they are the law,   They know the law.  They don’t need to search through thousands of forums and threads to find the one little chart that an euc rider made to keep ya informed.. 

You'd think so, but... Year or two ago (I've actually forgotten whether it was the summer of 2018 or 2017) I was riding around with a childhood friend visiting from another town, and we went to her big sister's house for a barbeque. Turns out, the big sis's husband is actually a local police officer. Over the course of the evening I talked with him about the legal situation about the wheels (they're legal up to 25km/h / 1kW, but KS16S already breaks both restrictions), and in summary, what he said was that

• A "normal" police officer won't know about those details, if they even know whether they're legal or not
• They're not usually interested in the wheels (at least in professional sense), as long as you behave and don't do anything crazy / endanger the public, they've got better things to do
• Even if they know the limitations otherwise, they won't know which model goes how fast or has how much nominal power
• They won't be able to test ride the wheel to see how fast it can go, and they can't force you to do that
• Finally, they're reluctant to give out tickets without a very good reason, because if they can't cite the exact laws and how they were broken, and there are some technicalities, the person receiving the ticket can "challenge" (well, that's not the right word exactly, but couldn't think of a better one right now) the ticket in court, which means they have to show up in court to give a testimony

So here, your "basic" normal police officer is unlikely to stop you or give you a ticket, unless you're riding recklessly or certainly going much faster than 25km/h (think of something like riding 40+km/h or causing possible danger in sidewalks or crowds or something) and they can prove that.

Edited July 13, 2019 by esaj

[Rywokast]

1 hour ago, esaj said:

You'd think so, but... Year or two ago (I've actually forgotten whether it was the summer of 2018 or 2017) I was riding around with a childhood friend visiting from another town, and we went to her big sister's house for a barbeque. Turns out, the big sis's husband is actually a local police officer. Over the course of the evening I talked with him about the legal situation about the wheels (they're legal up to 25km/h / 1kW, but KS16S already breaks both restrictions), and in summary, what he said was that

• A "normal" police officer won't know about those details, if they even know whether they're legal or not
• They're not usually interested in the wheels (at least in professional sense), as long as you behave and don't do anything crazy / endanger the public, they've got better things to do
• Even if they know the limitations otherwise, they won't know which model goes how fast or has how much nominal power
• They won't be able to test ride the wheel to see how fast it can go, and they can't force you to do that
• Finally, they're reluctant to give out tickets without a very good reason, because if they can't cite the exact laws and how they were broken, and there are some technicalities, the person receiving the ticket can "challenge" (well, that's not the right word exactly, but couldn't think of a better one right now) the ticket in court, which means they have to show up in court to give a testimony

So here, your "basic" normal police officer is unlikely to stop you or give you a ticket, unless you're riding recklessly or certainly going much faster than 25km/h (think of something like riding 40+km/h or causing possible danger in sidewalks or crowds or something) and they can prove that.

same is true for here.. ive never got a ticket, ive never been threatened with a ticket, most cops dont even glance at me anymore.. had a few ask me what it was and were genuinely interested, a couple shout out compliments from the window.. my uncle is a police sergeant who rides motorbikes and he loves my wheels, always asking about them but he cant ride it worth shit xD maybe he tipped off his friends about not harassing me lol, but i ride past a police station on my way to work every single day with 20k collective km on a dozen EUCs so i would probably think in general if you arent being a jackass they wont care.. technically its illegal to ride even a bicycle here without a helmet but its an old law that i think they havent bothered to get rid of i see dozens of people every day riding without one, and ive never worn one before he tells me that the police could give a crap if youre wearing a helmet or not

[Unventor]

That might be for an ordinary police officer, but a mc traffic officer you might not be so lucky. @esajand @Rywokast

But even the mc traffic officer get it wrong too, but in most cases they have no issues handing out tickets for dangerous and reckless behaviour in traffic. 

[esaj]

15 minutes ago, Unventor said:

That might be for an ordinary police officer, but a mc traffic officer you might not be so lucky. @esajand @Rywokast

But even the mc traffic officer get it wrong too, but in most cases they have no issues handing out tickets for dangerous and reckless behaviour in traffic. 

Oh yes, motorcycle- or traffic cops might be more "educated" on the subject. And if they can get a radar reading of your speed, and it's clearly above 25km/h on level ground (or even uphill), then things might get different...

[LanghamP]

First ever eScooter related death in the UK

Tributes have poured in for a TV presenter and YouTube star after she died in an electric scooter crash – the first fatal collision involving an e-scooter in Britain.

Emily Hartridge died on Friday morning when her e-scooter collided with a lorry at a roundabout in Battersea, south-west London.

Without even knowing the particulars, I can say with confidence the steps society will follow.

1. The driver (article says lorry/truck) will say she swerved into him.

2. Cops will immediately fan out and ticket/confiscate non-automobile users in that area.

3. Public service announcements will stress the danger of not wearing a helmet and the illegality of eScooters.

4. Video footage will show the truck driver not following traffic laws thereby directly leading to her death.

5. The ban on all eScooters will be enforced.

 

[Scatcat]

On 7/9/2019 at 12:10 AM, Unventor said:

Currently rules in Sweden, simplyfied. (new rules might come into play, mainly target escooters) 

Max speed 20kmh. otherwise classed as an e-bicycle. You can ride where cycles are allowed, unless you go about 20kmh. 

EUC do not have max effect limitations to the motor as it is self-balancing. 

If you ride faster than 20kmh (not really clear if it is technical possible or set limitations that counts) you can seek registration as an (e) moped, meaning need of insurance too.

NOTE: At this point in time I don't know exactly how to go about this. Apparently you do this by the police. 

Police enforcement: ride nicely and you stay under the rader. Personally I have not had any issues yet. 

Source: only found Swedish version. 

https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/vagtrafik/Trafikregler/Cyklist-mopedist-motorcyklist/Trafikregler/Regler-for-cykel/

 

Actually don't try registration as an eMoped, it won't work. The rules for brakes and such, are very much in the way of registering at all.
That touches on another point, which is insurance. I've contacted insurance companies, and none of them are willing to touch PEV's unless they're mopeds.
So it's almost like a catch 22. A successful registration would lead you into a hopeless fight to get the legally required insurance. Without insurance a successful registration in reality would mean you can't ride. But without a registration, you can't legally ride faster than 20kph - actually your wheel should be factory limited to that speed.

So while we can ride, and while I've not heard of anyone being stopped and fined yet, the rules are very much out of sync with the reality of EUCs.