My Z10 Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Toshio Uemura]

9 minutes ago, novazeus said:

hard to tell from pictures but i think i can do a tasteful job.

trust me, in the pasture, it’s gonna get dropped a lot or forced bailed outs. 

I will report you to “Z Rights Watch”! ? 

[Marty Backe]

37 minutes ago, novazeus said:

yes, thank you.

everybody is gonna hate me but i think i’m gonna wallpaper mine with a black yoga mat.

protection from pasture falls and for leg adhesion and shock absorption.

Yes, we will hate you for wrapping this beautiful wheel in a yoga mat 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

Now for the sour note. For some inexplicable reason, the downhill torque has not increased   I experienced the same somewhat frightening sensation of losing control of the wheel as I navigated down the very steep hills that I had just climbed. It was the same sensation I experienced with the pre-production unit.

That’s a bit disturbing. I’m glad I read your post as I was just about to schedule a time slot at the auto proving grounds for tomorrow.  So how does the steep hill decent compare to the ACM or MCM 5? 

 

[steve454]

45 minutes ago, novazeus said:

yes, thank you.

everybody is gonna hate me but i think i’m gonna wallpaper mine with a black yoga mat.

protection from pasture falls and for leg adhesion and shock absorption.

It should come with pads that are installed by the owner, if desired.  Items 4 and 5.

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

That’s a bit disturbing. I’m glad I read your post as I was just about to schedule a time slot at the auto proving grounds for tomorrow.  So how does the steep hill decent compare to the ACM or MCM 5? 

 

that was marty. i have little hills. and mine is still in texas.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Rehab1 said:

That’s a bit disturbing. I’m glad I read your post as I was just about to schedule a time slot at the auto proving grounds for tomorrow.  So how does the steep hill decent compare to the ACM or MCM 5? 

 

Night and day. As stated, the Inmotion V10F, KingSong wheels, and Gotway wheels, have zero issue going down this same hill. You feel sturdy and in total control.

I think it's somewhat of a cop out for the people saying that you just need to learn how to downhill brake on the Z10, and then all will be fine. From my vast experience with a wide variety of wheels, the Z10 is inferior in this regards.

In your practical riding conditions, I'm sure you realize that you have nothing to be concerned about.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, steve454 said:

It should come with pads that are installed by the owner, if desired.  Items 4 and 5.

Trust me, the included pads will provide little protection to the wheel. I think they are meant more for protecting the legs.

[novazeus]

20 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

I will report you to “Z Rights Watch”! ? 

u guys are making me rethink my color choice. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Isn't that counter-productive? Shouldn't they dip forwards so you can more easily put pressure on your heels for slowing down?

I think a forward pedal tilt would make it more difficult to put pressure on the rear area.  I wonder if Ninebot tried to avoid the MOSFET blowing up by braking too hard problem so they made their firmware with less responsive braking power?  Maybe if the wheel senses a large current spike during regenerative braking the firmware tries to diminish this by applying some forward drive.  That might explain the lack of braking feel?  Someone who knows how the firmware works likely can offer better input.

How's the 60 to 0 braking distance feel like on the NBZ10?  Hopefully this might be solved with some firmware tweaking to make the Z10 on par with other wheels.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[meepmeepmayer]

Nah. When I go steep downhill on my ACM, I always wish the pedals wouldn't tilt back when braking (which is all the time) so it would be easier to push back. Same as for going steep uphills, instead of standing on my toes, if the pedals counteracted this, it would be much more comfortable having more level pedals. So essentially the ride mode would auto-adjust to being harder under high stresses and softer under low stresses.

Very good idea, this might indeed be a current/power limiter, making the pedals softer to lessen the load instead of harder for better control in fishy situations. From a technical standpoint,  unfortunately it makes sense to do this.

Hoping for all Z owners they tweak the firmware a bit about this.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I'm just wondering why it feels like your pedals tilt back when braking going downhill.  The wheel should keep the shell/pedals as level as possible, and it doesn't know what incline or decline you're on.  The contact point on the tire does shift to the front or back depending on going up or down the hill.   The sensation of standing on your toes is likely you trying to eek some more power out of the wheel as it slows down going up hills.  That is a good idea about the ride mode, but I wonder whether the wheel firmware can just sense the slower speed and higher current load going uphill and increase the velocity to compensate and detect the regenerative current and increasing speed and increase the braking?  I don't know if it's wise to alter the pedal tilt in an uphill/downhill...  have to think more on that.

[meepmeepmayer]

They tilt back because I'm braking To counter the wheel trying to runaway down the mountain. (Also I use the medium ride mode which makes the wheel act more hysteretic).

In principle, I believe it's clear. From a technical standpoint, it makes sense to have the wheel react slower under high stress to prevent spikes. Just like you guessed happens with the Z10. From a rider standpoint, the exact opposite would give you the best control. But it amplifies the already high stress. Would be cool though.

[Afeez Kay]

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

54 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

They tilt back because I'm braking To counter the wheel trying to runaway down the mountain. (Also I use the medium ride mode which makes the wheel act more hysteretic).

In principle, I believe it's clear. From a technical standpoint, it makes sense to have the wheel react slower under high stress to prevent spikes. Just like you guessed happens with the Z10. From a rider standpoint, the exact opposite would give you the best control. But it amplifies the already high stress. Would be cool though.

I usually use the medium mode on my Tesla, and the pedals are pretty level most of the time except for when there's tiltback.  I did actually notice the Telsa does seem to tilt slightly as my headlamp beam varies in its shape on a level sidewalk when reaching a certain speed.  Otherwise the pedals remain pretty flat during braking.  Is there tiltback going down very steep hills?  The sensation is different when braking on flat and going downhill.  You can feel the contact patch more rearward in the downhill, but I haven't noticed any pedal tilt otherwise.  Maybe it's an ACM thing?    I would think that the firmware tries to keep the pedals/case/control board level in most situations unless a tiltback routine is triggered or unless a soft riding mode is selected?

[meepmeepmayer]

The pedals don't tilt back, but they tilt back just like do during (initiating) braking. Everything clear now?

Not to venture too far into offtopic, but EUCs aren't static (then they wouldn't move at all), just move around some equillibrium state. I guess that's why "the pedals are always level" doesn't work here.

I just know, if I go down steep inclines, it feels like the wheel is trying to run away and it is harder to brake because I can't easily push the back of the pedals down. Feels like you're trying to brake while already braking.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The pedals don't tilt back, but they tilt back just like do during (initiating) braking. Everything clear now?

Not to venture too far into offtopic, but EUCs aren't static (then they wouldn't move at all), just move around some equillibrium state. I guess that's why "the pedals are always level" doesn't work here.

I just know, if I go down steep inclines, it feels like the wheel is trying to run away and it is harder to brake because I can't easily push the back of the pedals down. Feels like you're trying to brake while already braking.

I think many (most) people never ride down very steep hills so they just can't relate. You, I know, relate to my experience 

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Trust me, the included pads will provide little protection to the wheel. I think they are meant more for protecting the legs.

They look terrific but there must be a more definitive method for securing them to the shell. I like your industrial Velcro recommendation but I have a feeling the pads might loose that custom molded appearance if they are elevated by the thickness of the Velcro. 

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

They look terrific but there must be a more definitive method for securing them to the shell. I like your industrial Velcro recommendation but I have a feeling the pads might loose that custom molded appearance if they are elevated by the thickness of the Velcro. 

I'm not attaching mine. I don't want any padding between my legs and the wheel. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I don't think so.

[Rehab1]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Night and day. As stated, the Inmotion V10F, KingSong wheels, and Gotway wheels, have zero issue going down this same hill. You feel sturdy and in total control.

I think it's somewhat of a cop out for the people saying that you just need to learn how to downhill brake on the Z10, and then all will be fine. From my vast experience with a wide variety of wheels, the Z10 is inferior in this regards.

In your practical riding conditions, I'm sure you realize that you have nothing to be concerned about.

The main reason I bought the Z was to venture beyond the practical riding terrain.  I felt secure descending the 30 percent grade at the proving grounds even with my old  V5F+. Based on your experience I would not currently attempt riding down the steep concrete grade until this issue is resolved. 

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

The main reason I bought the Z was to venture beyond the practical riding terrain.  I felt secure descending the 30 percent grade at the proving grounds even with my old  V5F+. Based on your experience I would not currently attempt riding down the steep concrete grade until this issue is resolved. 

If only someone else can second my experience. So far there have been two owners that imply it's just my riding style.

I'm hoping @who_the can chime in since I believe this weekend he might have access to a production unit along with the wheel he already has from Jason.

Just try it and form your own opinion.

Sometimes I wonder if I should do these videos. I get subsequent comments (not you) on YouTube and Facebook where people immediately write off the wheel as not worthy to consider owning, just because of the edge case weakness. What wheel is perfect?

So many people have unrealistic expectations. They should ride the wheels that were available in 2015, and think about complaining about what we have now.

[Toshio Uemura]

7 hours ago, Rotciv said:

It’s possible that you haven’t had enough experience going downhill with the One Z. 

When I first got mine, I experienced about the same as you did going down steep hills to the point of almost bailing out. 

Once I learned more about the wheel’s characteristics and improved my technique, I don’t have any issues going down steep bumpy hills. Assistive braking works well for me, might not for someone else. 

Same experience here! You should not assume that your thousands of kilometer/miles of riding experience translates 1to1 to the Z. There is a learning curve and this is true for all aspects of the Z and especially true for downhill riding. So you might want to give it some practice on these extremely steep hills before crying for firmware updates. Time will tell.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Toshio Uemura

[Toshio Uemura]

52 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Sometimes I wonder if I should do these videos. I get subsequent comments (not you) on YouTube and Facebook where people immediately write off the wheel as not worthy to consider owning, just because of the edge case weakness. What wheel is perfect?

So many people have unrealistic expectations. They should ride the wheels that were available in 2015, and think about complaining about what we have now.

Thank you for doing these videos! ? They are important for all of us. They give important and experienced insights. They reflect your honest opinion and everybody is entitled to his opinion. At present many of us are test pilots for a new technology (for some companies more than for others) and we risk our health to support and bring about advances in this rather young technology. There is, no doubt, some pioneering spirit necessary and it comes with a price. This is true for other young sports as well, think of hang gliders, paragliders and snow sports. Enthusiasts and critics likewise bring about advancement. So please don’t doubt what you are doing because of some ignorants commentaries on YouTube and Facebook. The oak does not mind the Pinscher peeing at it!

You are doing a great job with your videos... but you have to practice downhill with your new Z ? 

[Mark Lee]

15 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

If only someone else can second my experience. So far there have been two owners that imply it's just my riding style.

I'm hoping @who_the can chime in since I believe this weekend he might have access to a production unit along with the wheel he already has from Jason.

Just try it and form your own opinion.

Sometimes I wonder if I should do these videos. I get subsequent comments (not you) on YouTube and Facebook where people immediately write off the wheel as not worthy to consider owning, just because of the edge case weakness. What wheel is perfect?

So many people have unrealistic expectations. They should ride the wheels that were available in 2015, and think about complaining about what we have now.

During the Provo canyon ride there was a steep section coming down where I got a major wobble trying to slow down on Z10 the kind I get when I make an emergency stops.  I can say I had a pucker factor for sure since it was not my wheel.  Lucky for me I was able to ride it out but Z10 did not slow down like my other wheels. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Mark Lee

[Marty Backe]

25 minutes ago, Toshio Uemura said:

Thank you for doing these videos! ? They are important for all of us. They give important and experienced insights. They reflect your honest opinion and everybody is entitled to his opinion. At present many of us are test pilots for a new technology (for some companies more than for others) and we risk our health to support and bring about advances in this rather young technology. There is, no doubt, some pioneering spirit necessary and it comes with a price. This is true for other young sports as well, think of hang gliders, paragliders and snow sports. Enthusiasts and critics likewise bring about advancement. So please don’t doubt what you are doing because of some ignorants commentaries on YouTube and Facebook. The oak does not mind the Pinscher peeing at it!

You are doing a great job with your videos... but you have to practice downhill with your new Z ? 

Thank you.

But how do I know (or you know) whether we are talking about the same kind of hills? And your ~130-pounds vs my ~170-pounds?

I think I have a pretty good instinct about how a wheel should perform and I think the Z10 is not ideal for steep hills for a guy who weighs more than 170-pounds. But I'll concede that if nobody else complains, it's just me.

I will thoroughly enjoy my Z10, but I'll stick with Gotway when riding steep hills.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Toshio Uemura said:

Same experience here! You should not assume that your thousands of kilometer/miles of riding experience translates 1to1 to the Z. There is a learning curve and this is true for all aspects of the Z and especially true for downhill riding. So you might want to give it some practice on these extremely steep hills before crying for firmware updates. Time will tell.

And why exactly did I not need any learning experience on this identical hill with the V10F, the KS14S, KS18S, and all the Gotway wheels? I think it's because this hill is steeper than you think it is and the Z10 is an inferior hill descender