My Z10 Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[who_the]

Quote

"Ninebot, if you're listening, I hope you're able to fix the braking on your amazing new Z10. I think you will probably be rewarded handsomely by the EUC community."

Martycrash! Wow. And your face for about 10-15 seconds before. Says all you need to know about the abysmal, unsafe braking on the Z10.

Seriously though, the Z10 is a seriously good wheel. Absolutely world-class. Hangs with — but doesn't surpass — the best wheels on the planet. Is hella fun and unique. Is challenging and rewarding to master, even for an experienced EUC rider. UL listed or not, the engineering and build quality is absolutely UL caliber. I can't wait to add one to my charging bay.

BUT: THE BRAKING IS SUB-PAR, DANGEROUS AND MUST BE ADDRESSED.

The Z10 rides amazing and crushes our biggest hill climbs in San Francisco, no problem. See video below. But downhill — steep hills in particular — is another story. (Also in the video.) Braking power is crucial with a wheel as capable as the Z10, and it disappointingly falls far short of the braking power I experience on all my other wheels, and require to safely descend our steepest of San Francisco hills.

I found braking adequate at best during flat, street, or even terrain riding. But on steep descents, not uncommon here and elsewhere, we should be able to descend safely at more than walking speed, which is more than I can say about the pre-production — and apparently, the production — Z10 builds.

Like others, it would seem to me that firmware could address this issue. I'm guessing Ninebot has been conservative about pounding too much power back through the wheel under braking. I hope there is room for them to dial this up a bit. (I'd also guess there's another 3-5 mph of top speed, at least, hiding in this wheel. "@palachzzz, if you're listening, I hope you're able to..."

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by who_the
added sideways picture of Marty

[Marty Backe]

23 minutes ago, who_the said:

Martycrash! Wow. And your face for about 10-15 seconds before. Says all you need to know about the abysmal, unsafe braking on the Z10.

Seriously though, the Z10 is a seriously good wheel. Absolutely world-class. Hangs with — but doesn't surpass — the best wheels on the planet. Is hella fun and unique. Is challenging and rewarding to master, even for an experienced EUC rider. UL listed or not, the engineering and build quality is absolutely UL caliber. I can't wait to add one to my charging bay.

BUT: THE BRAKING IS SUB-PAR, DANGEROUS AND MUST BE ADDRESSED.

The Z10 rides amazing and crushes our biggest hill climbs in San Francisco, no problem. See video below. But downhill — steep hills in particular — is another story. (Also in the video.) Braking power is crucial with a wheel as capable as the Z10, and it disappointingly falls far short of the braking power I experience on all my other wheels, and require to safely descend our steepest of San Francisco hills.

I found braking adequate at best during flat, street, or even terrain riding. But on steep descents, not uncommon here and elsewhere, we should be able to descend safely at more than walking speed, which is more than I can say about the pre-production — and apparently, the production — Z10 builds.

Like others, it would seem to me that firmware could address this issue. I'm guessing Ninebot has been conservative about pounding too much power back through the wheel under braking. I hope there is room for them to dial this up a bit. (I'd also guess there's another 3-5 mph of top speed, at least, hiding in this wheel. "@palachzzz, if you're listening, I hope you're able to..."

 

 

I think you recognize that expression on my face  Even though I couldn't see your face, your body stance told the whole story on that last descent 

Hopefully you get a chance to try a production version on that hill, but be prepared for the same experience. Going up hill though, you will see a big improvement.

Thanks.

 

[who_the]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think you recognize that expression on my face  Even though I couldn't see your face, your body stance told the whole story on that last descent 

Wait! I found a picture of my face on that descent.

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, who_the said:

Wait! I found a picture of my face on that descent.

[JBoo]

Since I’ve benefitted greatly from reading Marty’s review of the Z10, I figured the least I could do is join and confirm his downhill experience.  I have to descend a steep slope during my morning commute, and the very first time I did this when I took the wheel  on a short ride after unpacking, I had a very strong sensation that I was going to lose control of the wheel, but managed to keep it together until I hit a level street.  When I went down this same slope on my first commute run this morning, I felt like I was maintaining better control of the wheel; however, for someone watching me from the side, it probably looked like I was about to sit in a chair 

Right now, it’s just too soon for me to say how I feel about this; whether this is an issue with the wheel’s braking algorithm, or just more time required to master this radically different euc.  After a single day of commuting, my control over the wheel has improved greatly.  There’s a steep, grass covered hill nearby and I might try and head out there this weekend and practice some descents with the only downside being me and the wheel might roll down some soft sod.  I’ll report back here if I do.

For those who are curious, I’ve logged ~5000 miles euc riding across a Solowheel Extreme, a KS18B, a V8, and now the Z10.  I’m 6’3, 195lbs, and I’ve currently got the Z10 inflated to ~2.5 bars.

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, JBoo said:

Since I’ve benefitted greatly from reading Marty’s review of the Z10, I figured the least I could do is join and confirm his downhill experience.  I have to descend a steep slope during my morning commute, and the very first time I did this when I took the wheel  on a short ride after unpacking, I had a very strong sensation that I was going to lose control of the wheel, but managed to keep it together until I hit a level street.  When I went down this same slope on my first commute run this morning, I felt like I was maintaining better control of the wheel; however, for someone watching me from the side, it probably looked like I was about to sit in a chair 

Right now, it’s just too soon for me to say how I feel about this; whether this is an issue with the wheel’s braking algorithm, or just more time required to master this radically different euc.  After a single day of commuting, my control over the wheel has improved greatly.  There’s a steep, grass covered hill nearby and I might try and head out there this weekend and practice some descents with the only downside being me and the wheel might roll down some soft sod.  I’ll report back here if I do.

For those who are curious, I’ve logged ~5000 miles euc riding across a Solowheel Extreme, a KS18B, a V8, and now the Z10.  I’m 6’3, 195lbs, and I’ve currently got the Z10 inflated to ~2.5 bars.

Thanks for your report. I love your "sitting on a chair" image   Even if it works, that's not ideal. Now imagine doing your hill but instead it's a bumpy as hell dirt trail 

Look forward your further commentary 

[US69]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

far there have been two owners that imply it's just my riding style.

Which surely it is not...

Has nothing todo with your riding style and best is you already have more miles on the Z10 as most other z10 owners, or?

When the wheel gives up...or runs down a hill faster as you want it to, and not beeing able to stop you like you want, would say the problem is that most people never experienced such a thing. It can scare the shit out of the rider, when the wheel on braking gives in. You can clearly see that on your face expression :-( 

Then there are the SF riders which said that, too and videod it.....and just the fact that all your other (8-10?) wheels made it down without any problems.

Hopefully you never get into a real emergency brake situation with the Z10.

Ok, have to wait for a FW fix...if one will come....before i can buy a Z10 :-(

Edited August 24, 2018 by US69

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, US69 said:

Which surely it is not...

Has nothing todo with your riding style and best is you already have more miles on the Z10 as most other z10 owners, or?

When the wheel gives up...or runs down a hill faster as you want it to, and not beeing able to stop you like you want, would say the problem is that most people never experienced such a thing. It can scare the shit out of the rider, when the wheel on braking gives in. You can clearly see that on your face expression :-( 

Then there are the SF riders which said that, too...and the fact that all other (10?) wheels made it down without any problems.

Hopefully you never get into a real emergency brake situation with the Z10.

Ok, have to wait for a FW fix...if one will come....before o can buy a Z10 :-(

Of course I agree with you, if I'm allowed to say that 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I wonder whether a tether would be a good safeguard going down steep hills.  @Alien Rides uses one I see.  99.9% of the time you never fall, but that 0.1% of the time it might come in handy?

[Marty Backe]

 

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I wonder whether a tether would be a good safeguard going down steep hills.  @Alien Rides uses one I see.  99.9% of the time you never fall, but that 0.1% of the time it might come in handy?

Real men don't use tethers 

[Marty Backe]

 

[Ziiten]

19 hours ago, Marcglider said:

Yes... Pebble was bought by FitBit and is not servicing their customers... I bought a new cell phone and couldn't get the watch (pebble app) to read the Program... Rebble is the new "support" software a third party is continuing to help service all pebble users  once I got the pebble app to read the wheellog app, everything was working properly... what was weird for me was on my old phone it was all good no problem and when I downloaded the same app in the new one it didn't... "THANKS REBBLE"...

When I look for the Rebble smartwatch, I get no places to buy it, but Pebble is still sold at least in Ali for 30-50€ (original version). Is the watch still called Pebble, but only the app is called Rebble? Is the ver. 2 worth it over the older model?

[fbhb]

38 minutes ago, Ziiten said:

When I look for the Rebble smartwatch, I get no places to buy it, but Pebble is still sold at least in Ali for 30-50€ (original version). Is the watch still called Pebble, but only the app is called Rebble? Is the ver. 2 worth it over the older model?

Yes, the watch is called Pebble & available to buy still from various outlets, whilst a software company took over the software side of things hence the Rebble moniker. I bought myself the original Black Pebble Steel earlier this year and could not be happier with it if that helps. 

[Toshio Uemura]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Thank you.

But how do I know (or you know) whether we are talking about the same kind of hills? And your ~130-pounds vs my ~170-pounds?

I think I have a pretty good instinct about how a wheel should perform and I think the Z10 is not ideal for steep hills for a guy who weighs more than 170-pounds. But I'll concede that if nobody else complains, it's just me.

I will thoroughly enjoy my Z10, but I'll stick with Gotway when riding steep hills.

First of all: You are absolutely right, we have not established any parameters but were just talking about feelings and giving judgements based on our feelings and experiences. I think, there may be a problem! So let’s talk about such standards:

- the Z10 is specified for safely riding a Maximum hill angle of up to 25 degrees up and down with maximum loads of up to 150 kg.

Do I think that specification is safely fulfilled? Yes I do! Now having gotten some extra power to master steeper hills is a bonus to us that we should cherish. Do we climb or decent such extra steep limit hills at our own risk? Yes we do? So first we should establish some facts, before making judgments about how safe the Z behaves? I am convinced it behaves 100% safe within the advertised and specified limits! Now is there a way to tell us how steep your decent was at the location where you lost control? If other riders have these data, we can try to replicate a similar situation and review our own impressions. 

Now secondly, even though I may not have the riding skills and experience with EUCs that you have, I believe every rider goes through similar feelings and learning steps in mastering how to ride. Based on that, I can safely say that I had exactly the same impression when I went down my usual inclines for the first time. It frightened me to the core. I almost peed my pants imagining me and the Z rolling down the hill. So I decided going down some hills backward and again up backward, working on my technique and this completely different feeling. That’s the new challenge that comes with the Z.

If you exceed the range of what this beast is build for you better expect surprises. The good news is: It can be mastered even without new firmware. 

But to believe and proclaim it is safer to go down this hill with a GW EUC I consider a bit dangerous, since I am sure your hill is outside of the specified range of any GW as well. So why are we not just happy that many of these machines give us more power as their specifications promise and only complain, if they do not fulfill what their specification promised and what we payed for.

And last: Don’t give up on the Z regarding this hill: there is a learning curve here!

Edited August 24, 2018 by Toshio Uemura

[Ziiten]

14 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Yes, the watch is called Pebble & available to buy still from various outlets, whilst a software company took over the software side of things hence the Rebble moniker. I bought myself the original Black Pebble Steel earlier this year and could not be happier with it if that helps. 

Ok, thanks, maybe I'll go with the cheaper original one, as long as it works with the Wheellog, I am ok.

[Marcglider]

14 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Yes, the watch is called Pebble & available to buy still from various outlets, whilst a software company took over the software side of things hence the Rebble moniker. I bought myself the original Black Pebble Steel earlier this year and could not be happier with it if that helps. 

Also if you have a screen "tearing" issue which is common... ck this out 

https://waynedgrant.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/pebble-watch-screen-tearing-fix-with-lots-of-pictures/

I tried it but have not yet been able to confirm the results as it rained  yesterday evening  and I did not ride... 

[fbhb]

1 minute ago, Marcglider said:

Also if you have a screen "tearing" issue which is common... ck this out 

I must be one of the lucky ones, my Pebble Steel has been faultless but I did have to return the first one to Amazon that was faulty out of the box.

[RoberAce]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Por supuesto que estoy de acuerdo contigo, si puedo decir eso 

@Marty Backe Do you have braking assistance activated in the app?

[RoberAce]

3 hours ago, US69 said:

Que seguramente no es ...

No tiene nada que ver con su estilo de conducción y lo mejor es que ya tiene más millas en el Z10 que la mayoría de los otros propietarios de z10, o?

Cuando la rueda se rinde ... o baja una cuesta más rápido como lo desea, y no puede detenerlo como quiere, diría que el problema es que la mayoría de la gente nunca experimentó tal cosa. Puede asustar al jinete, cuando se frena la rueda que frena. Puedes verlo claramente en la expresión de tu cara :-( 

Luego están los jinetes de SF que dijeron eso, también lo grabaron ... y simplemente el hecho de que todas sus otras ruedas (8-10?) Bajaron sin ningún problema.

Es de esperar que nunca tengas una situación de freno de emergencia real con el Z10.

Ok, tengo que esperar un arreglo de FW ... si uno vendrá ... antes de que pueda comprar un Z10 :-(

I currently have 1,100 miles with my Z10

[Toshio Uemura]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I will thoroughly enjoy my Z10, but I'll stick with Gotway when riding steep hills.

Time will tell! ? 

[Toshio Uemura]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Right now, it’s just too soon for me to say how I feel about this;

That’s the spirit. The Z can give you a tremendous “culture shock” and the steep downhill experience can be potentially traumatizing, ... but ... let’s wait and see. T....w....t....!  ? 

[Ather]

@Marty Backe looks like your wheels got down hill issues. Do you want to sell it to me?  You can buy it when the issues are resolved 

 

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, RoberAce said:

@Marty Backe Do you have braking assistance activated in the app?

I tried both, on the pre-production version and my wheel. I leave it turned off.

[RoberAce]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I tried both, on the pre-production version and my wheel. I leave it turned off.

I can’t live without braking assistance, I think it is essential 

Edited August 24, 2018 by RoberAce