Kingsong S16 coming...

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, EUC BB said:

The S19 fits you perfectly.

Nah, he wants 70 km/h, the S22 is more perfect. And the S22 motor performs like a 100V.

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Nah, he wants 70 km/h, the S22 is more perfect. And the S22 motor performs like a 100V.

S19 is 100V（✔️） 1776Wh（✔️） 60km/h（Forced to 70 by decoding✔️）

S22/S22 pro is 126V

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

The S16 is a middle of the road electric unicycle, it suits a lot of riders, so please give the newer members a chance.

[onewheelkoregro]

9 hours ago, EUC BB said:

The S19 fits you perfectly.

top speed of S19 is only 60km/h

[KNZ]

Dennis Hagov basically called this a 16x with suspension so I’m completely down for this wheel. I’m too scared to go super fast, I can’t really ride far due to time constraint or just getting sore. …and I’m not ashamed to admit I do like me some needlessly flashy neon lights and built in speakers. 

[techyiam]

The S16 looks to be an interesting wheel. It seems to be a bit more capable than the older wheels in its class, but the S16 appears to be better built and is flashier. Plus suspension should work well.

However, the V11Y can do 60 km/h, and is a V11 revamped. And the weight is around 66 lbs. Tough competition.

[Funky]

14 hours ago, GottaWay said:

Ditch the speakers, up it to 100v 1750wh, and up the speed to 70kmh.

 

The 1500wh battery is fine capacity wise but the 84v 50kmh limit kills it.

Also ditch half of the battery and speed down to 40km/h. Now that would be perfect. You got all of past 3 years released wheels in that category made. Slower, smaller, lighter - none.

 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

So basically make it to a different class product than it’s intended for? And for a different target group? Right.

Maybe try to see that other people may have different needs than you? I personally wouldn’t change my nickname to “IndaMotion” and post on Begode threads what they should change to match my dream wheel…

But if we look at  the weight and overall stats of the wheel.. It's closer to the "big boy" street racing wheel class, than last mile commuters.. Or in general commuter.

I still stand for the weight classes 10-20kg lightweight. 20-30kg middle class and anything over 30kg is the heavy class. Doesn't matter how big battery and how fast it goes. It's in same group. Or should we add also 30-40kg and 40-50kg class now? It always have been "3" classes.

In my eyes S16/S19/S22 and all of rest new wheels are in same class/group. Yes V13 and S16 is the same for me.  Doesn't matter that one goes much slower. It's over 30kg - it's the same. 

[mrelwood]

23 hours ago, Funky said:

In my eyes S16/S19/S22 and all of rest new wheels are in same class/group.

A KingSong engineer had said that the S16 weight at launch will be 29kg. So it fits into your mid class after all!

 It will basically weigh the same as the V11Y, with the same battery capacity, even the same suspension travel. Though the V11Y has a larger tire, is 10 km/h faster, and has ride mode customizations. No smart BMS though, AFAIK.

Edited September 10, 2023 by mrelwood

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 It will basically weigh the same as the V11Y, with the same battery capacity, same top speed,

Were there an update on the top speed that was stated in the Kingsong's Official S16 Launch Video?

 60 km/h top speed would be more desirable than the 50 km/h that was stated in the Launch Video.

Timestamped.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

20 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Were there an update on the top speed that was stated in the Kingsong's Official S16 Launch Video?

 60 km/h top speed would be more desirable than the 50 km/h that was stated in the Launch Video.

Oh, sorry!! I just remembered wrong… Fixed now.

Edited September 10, 2023 by mrelwood

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

A KingSong engineer had said that the S16 weight at launch will be 29kg. So it fits into your mid class after all!

 It will basically weigh the same as the V11Y, with the same battery capacity, even the same suspension travel. Though the V11Y has a larger tire, is 10 km/h faster, and has ride mode customizations. No smart BMS though, AFAIK.

Yet like i said - i want something lighter than my 18xl for my next wheel.. It's great that it's under 30kg. But still 2 heavy for "my" daily needs. I will be looking at 20kg wheels, when i'm gonna buy new one.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Funky

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:28 AM, Funky said:

Also ditch half of the battery and speed down to 40km/h. Now that would be perfect. You got all of past 3 years released wheels in that category made. Slower, smaller, lighter - none.

 

But if we look at  the weight and overall stats of the wheel.. It's closer to the "big boy" street racing wheel class, than last mile commuters.. Or in general commuter.

I still stand for the weight classes 10-20kg lightweight. 20-30kg middle class and anything over 30kg is the heavy class. Doesn't matter how big battery and how fast it goes. It's in same group. Or should we add also 30-40kg and 40-50kg class now? It always have been "3" classes.

In my eyes S16/S19/S22 and all of rest new wheels are in same class/group. Yes V13 and S16 is the same for me.  Doesn't matter that one goes much slower. It's over 30kg - it's the same. 

Be sure to keep an eye out for S14 in the future.

[Jason McNeil]

We're trying to have King Song bump up the speed from 50kph to 60kph & use the 50S cells in there to support the higher current loads, & additional safety margin. It's still under negotation, right now they want a couple hundred unit firm order, but it's a chicken-and-egg thing—the S16 needs to prove itself first, before anyone is going to be placing a large order with them.  

What do you guys think, would there be more appeal with those better specs? The wholesalel price difference ought to be pretty marginal, Dealers would absorb this to keep it within the $2k release price.  

[yoos]

46 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

What do you guys think, would there be more appeal with those better specs?

Yes, I would readily pay an extra 100-200$ to get +10kph max speed (or extra safety margin at lower speeds - whichever way you look at it) without any tradeoffs (except cost). 60kph would top the S18 and V11, putting it on par with the T4 and the expected V11y. That would make it the cheapest non-Begode 60kph wheel, an important sweet-spot. A lot of countries have 50 kph as the city speed limit (and some still have 60), so the extra margin in this speed region is extremely important for safe city riding.

[Funky]

If you ride on sidewalks, not on streets with cars - 50km/h speed is plenty. 

I would pay 1000-2000$ extra, if it was under 20kg weight.. 

 

We need carbon fiber EUC's. Duck Steel... (Sigle use per drop - people will start to ride more carefully.)  

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

We're trying to have King Song bump up the speed from 50kph to 60kph

I think we’ve had enough KingSongs by now (S18, 16X) that have had the speed bumped up beyond their capabilities. Both of them problematic because of this. We don’t need yet another.

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

What do you guys think, would there be more appeal with those better specs?

I don’t think so. I don’t think this is a wheel people would choose for a 60km/h wheel (if 50km/h isn’t enough). There are so many better options available already.

 What’s missing is competition in the light and medium suspension wheel categories. V11 weighs 27.5kg, and already has a 14” rim, 1500Wh battery, and 55km/h top speed. Soon V11Y will be 60km/h at 29.5kg with heaps more torque. Why buy a smaller wheel (S16) for pretty much the same specs?

 Make it a 25kg wheel and it would sell VERY well. People are constantly asking for light and relatively small suspension wheels. They don’t ride faster than 50km/h, and most of them don’t hang out at enthusiast forums.

S16 will never be an enthusiast wheel. Why try make it into one when we already know it can’t deliver?

[UniVehje]

7 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

What do you guys think, would there be more appeal with those better specs?

Personally not really. @mrelwood already put it well and I agree. Most of the recent wheels have been aiming at ever higher top speeds. I’ve not been riding any faster after 50 kph. Mostly riding at 35-40 kph. There’s plenty of wheels to choose from for those needing more. I ride an S22 and looking to upgrade. And I’d be happy to upgrade to a slower wheel. Some parts of the world have a good bike lane coverage and regulations for vehicles. A wheel limited to 45 kph would fit better for moped class regulation. 

I’m much more interested in a good seat, reliability, ease of servicing, slim design, weight, range (100+ km at 35 kph) and nice ride feel on streets (good tire). And why do we always have to do a tire change as first thing after getting a new wheel to get rid of a horrible knobby tire?
 

There’s so much more to wheels than spec sheets and top speed. I get the fixation on speed a few years back when we didn’t have enough. But a large portion or riders have already reached the point of diminishing return on speed for a unicycles used among bicyclists and pedestrians. 

[yoos]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think this is a wheel people would choose for a 60km/h wheel (if 50km/h isn’t enough). There are so many better options available already.

This is absolutely fair. Still, there is a market share for the S16, even if it is slim. And for these people a 50S version is strictly better than a 50MT version. If you had to choose just between these two options, with no other EUCs under consideration, wouldn't it be obvious? I think that the target audience are commuters or general users on a budget that are not sensitive to the EUCs weight (e.g. they live in a small one-storied town). With 50S cells the wheel offers even better value.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

S16 will never be an enthusiast wheel. Why try make it into one when we already know it can’t deliver?

I don't think that is what Jason/Kingsong would have in mind. It's still slower than the S19, S22, there is no enthusiast ambition here, rather a value mid-range all-rounder EUC. 

[OldFartRides]

@Jason McNeil …since you are here, I have a question : Is the plethora of new EUC’s outgrowing the market ?

Some here on the forum believe that wheels do not have that “mass appeal”.  Your thoughts on this ? TIA.

[Jason McNeil]

15 hours ago, OldFartRides said:

since you are here, I have a question : Is the plethora of new EUC’s outgrowing the market ?

Yeah, the release tempo has to level off as we head into the 'slow' season. It's doubtful that some of these models are recouping the development budget of $100-$300k for tooling, molds & other work. My sense is that a few of these manufacturers are now caught up in this trap, pushing out new models to make the sales targets, but if they're a loss maker, it's not sustainable. For the likes of King Song, they've got to get out of this mindset of total secrecy, fail to do any market requirements assessment, then wonder why there's a lacklusture response to an introduction that fails to have some key differentiation in a saturated marketplace & recent spotty quality record. 

There's a load of overhead in maintaining stockpiles of parts, we're currently maintaining about 2,000 unique parts SKUs. Pretty much every Begode model shares zero commonality—not even the handles!

The sentiment is nicely encapsulated in a survey FreshlyCharged did last week, where >90% of the 1K respondents choose 'quality' over 'innovation'. Executing well on a single release, with something interesting/new to add, has infinitely more value than knocking out several hardly differentiated models each year. 

 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Executing well on a single release, with something interesting/new to add, has infinitely more value than knocking out several hardly differentiated models each year.

Are Leaper Kim's Sherman S and Patton good examples of the former?

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

For the likes of King Song, they've got to get out of this mindset of total secrecy, fail to do any market requirements assessment, then wonder why there's a lacklusture response to an introduction that fails to have some key differentiation in a saturated marketplace & recent spotty quality record.

We all would greatly appreciate a list of top selling EUCs, or a sales ranking of all of them. That comes to mind as you mention "lacklustre response" to King Song models. It would be great to know which wheels actually sell. So if that is information you can release, please do so!

[techyiam]

Around the 2020 time-frame, it was rumoured that Kingsong has two wheels in the works, one 20" and the other 16". The 20" wheel would be released first, then at a later date the S16. That 20" turned out to be the S20, which became the S22 and is now S22 Pro. Another tidbit of interest was that the styling of the S16 was supposedly to have borrowed some styling elements from the movie, Star Wars.

 The recently announce S16 appears to be based on the S20 and doesn't seem to have any design elements borrow from Star Wars. Perhaps Kingsong have shelved the original design? In any case, Kingsong has been thinking about coming out with a 16" suspension wheel for quite sometime.

At eWheels and other other distributors/dealers, both the V11 and the V12 are among the best selling wheels. So in the electric wheel market, these wheels are hot sellers. The V11 weighs about 60-ish lb. and the V12 weighs 64 lbs. And the V11Y is spec'd to weigh 66 lbs.

Denis Hagov have said at a recent trade show that Kingsong had told him the production S16 will weigh between 64 and 66 lbs. The V11 weighs about about 60 lbs, and new V11Y has a weight spec of 66 lbs. And the V12 weighs in at 64 lbs.

The V11, V11Y, and the S16 are all 84V wheels with a battery capacity around 1500Wh. But most importantly, they are priced similarly around the $2000 USD. The V12 is also priced similarly, but is a 100V, 16" wheel with a battery capacity of 1760 Wh. However, the V12 doesn't have a suspension.

It looks to me Kingsong, with their S16, is targeting the V11, and soon the V11Y. Kingsong chose the 16" wheel size instead of the  V11/V11  18" wheel size. The 16" wheel size has served the V12's well. The S16 also has the wider 16" tire like what is on the V12. Either wheel size canwork in this market segment. It is going to come down a personal choice. 

So far from what we can tell, both the S16 and the V11Y looked to have a lot going for them. But the V11Y has a top speed of 60 km/h. I think if the top speed of the S16 is bumped up from 50 km/h to 60 km/h, it may be able to attract more buyers. For myself, I find that my Begode T3 would have been a better wheel if the top speed of T3 was higher like 60 km/h. After the learning phase, I find that there are times, when I would like to travel a bit faster than 50 km/h. I don't intend to cruise at 60 km/h on a 84V wheel with 1500 Wh battery. However, the extra headroom provides a more useful ceiling to work with. 60 km/h top speed would give the S16 more utility as a backup wheel, and may even help delay the need to upgrade. Switching from the LG 50LT cells to Samsung 50S would be a win in my book. The 50S is both a high discharge cell and high capacity cell. The charge capacity is the same as the Samsung 50E or other high capacity cells. Since the price won't be raised in any significant way, it should help the S16 to better compete with the V11Y. Having the high discharge cell helps to reduce voltage sag under load. Look at how the high discharge cell had helped the S18. But unlike the S18 with the 40T, you won't lose battery capacity.

On paper, the strengths of both the S16 and V11Y are appealing for wheels in this class, but not necessarily in the same way. I think I would have to look closely at both, and perhaps ride them both to decide which wheel would suit me better. My feeling is that It's going to be a "different strokes for different folks" type of decision.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by techyiam

[Robse]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Around the 2020 time-frame.........

So far from  folks" type of decision.

 

Amen. 😇 And the S19 is dead.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Robse
typo error

[mtl]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

The V11, V11Y, and the S16 are all 84V wheels

Has it been announced that V11Y is 84V? It would be the first Raptor-based wheel to be 84V.