Kingsong S16 coming...

[zaft]

Looks too wide, I feel like the ergonomics on KS latest is a bit off… anyways really surprised they didn’t just update the s18 with all this s16/s19 hubbub. Instead of offering so many models maybe just build the best few … 

[Tawpie]

11 hours ago, Mango said:

This version with the S22 trolley and slider system is a deal-breaker. No casual rider wants the maintenance headache.

S22 trolly genuinely blows. The maintenance headache of the slider system? I'm 1400 odd miles on my drawer wheeled slider system (OG ningning8s, including the white wheels) and the maintenance I've done is run some water down the channels 1 time. Mostly road riding, some trail but no mud. If you ride in mud, yeah, you're going to need to clean it. But if you're like me and don't ride in mud—so far it's zero maintenance.

I don't see an issue with the sliders... but it is a heavy thing. Still, there is a non-hang-out-in-this-kind-of-chat segment that will like it. Who would have thought that the much maligned S18 was ridden so frequently in 2022?

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Mostly road riding, some trail but no mud. If you ride in mud, yeah, you're going to need to clean it. But if you're like me and don't ride in mud—so far it's zero maintenance.

Just curious as to how happy you are with with your S22. S22 is a capable wheel, and I like the way it rides on pavement. Eevees is currently selling it for $3000 CAD. So it is tempting.

Have you encounter any issues? Have the shock ever failed? How about the motor, bearings, controller, and BMS? With the Smart BMS, have you noticed any unbalanced cell groups that worried you?

Thanks.

 

[slippyfeet]

 

[eezo]

The most interesting this about this wheel for me, and something I haven't seen mentioned yet, is the way the body and pedals aren't centered on the wheel. If you watch the videos of people riding it, check out the side views, the pedals are mounted forward on the wheel so the rider's anklebone is centered on the hub of the wheel. If I had to speculate, this wheel is going to have fantastic, responsive handling.

[onewheelkoregro]

18 hours ago, zaft said:

Looks too wide, I feel like the ergonomics on KS latest is a bit off… anyways really surprised they didn’t just update the s18 with all this s16/s19 hubbub. Instead of offering so many models maybe just build the best few … 

I also really feel like Kingsong is behind the times with the rest of the EUC world. Releasing an 84 v wheel in 2023? Every other EUC company is releasing 134 volt wheels, while Kingsong drops a 100v and an 84 volt wheel. I realize these are probably targeted to new EUC riders but eventually they are going to want more speed and they would be better off investing in a wheel that they will use for a lot longer.

[onewheelkoregro]

Having said that I am really disappointed with their EUC releases in 2023. I really want to go back to riding Kingsong but I cannot possibly see a reason if all of their EUCs are capped at 50-60 km/h or 31-37 mph. The S22 is still an attractive option to me but the only downside for me is the lack of the usual dependable and well placed trolley handle, and all of the slider problems

[yoos]

9 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

Every other EUC company is releasing 134 volt wheels, while Kingsong drops a 100v and an 84 volt wheel.

Voltage is a complicated beast. More is not always better or reasonable. Think cylinder count in a combustion engine, or screw length in wood-working or pressure in a coffee machine etc. For example, high voltage poses some extra hazards, less parallelism in battery packs (and hence less redundancy). I believe 90+% of EUCs sold by KS are 84V. It's what they have the most experience with and best scale for economy. Makes reason to fall back to a tried and tested optimized solution if you want to achieve that 1999$ price tag. Remember, you are basically getting a 16X with suspension and modern features (smartBMS, most importantly) at basically the same price!

The 16X really hit a sweet spot and if you think of the S16 as a major overhaul of the 16X without a hefty price hike, then it's a crazy good deal! (yet I'm still incredulous of the weight. Did they resort to steel pedals and handles for economy or something ?)

[techyiam]

29 minutes ago, yoos said:

The 16X really hit a sweet spot and if you think of the S16 as a major overhaul of the 16X without a hefty price hike, then it's a crazy good deal! (yet I'm still incredulous of the weight. Did they resort to steel pedals and handles for economy or something ?)

I have to agree with this. The S22 is a really nice riding wheel. Some reviewers have already confirmed that the S19 rides well. Most likely the S16 will too, since they are all essentially based on the same S20 chassis. That is why these wheels weigh so much, even with only 1480 Wh battery capacity.

The S16 is a price point wheel. To get to the $2000 USD price point something has to give. But since this is primarily a beginner / chill riding type of wheel, the 84V is a good a choice since you would still have 4P battery configuration. For $2000, you are still getting a quality piece.

20 cells (84V) x 3.7 V (nominal) x 5 Ah (cell capacity) x 4P = 1480 Wh

24 cells (100.8V) x 3.7 V (nominal) x 5 Ah (cell capacity) x 4P = 1776 Wh

Edited August 17, 2023 by techyiam

[slippyfeet]

I charge all my wheels with the eWheels 5amp GX16-4 charger (lenovo adapter for the 18XL). Feeling very inclined to sell off my mten4 and T3 for this. Never had any problems with my 84V machines, I just really want a proper kickstand .

[litewave]

13 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

Having said that I am really disappointed with their EUC releases in 2023. I really want to go back to riding Kingsong but I cannot possibly see a reason if all of their EUCs are capped at 50-60 km/h or 31-37 mph. The S22 is still an attractive option to me but the only downside for me is the lack of the usual dependable and well placed trolley handle, and all of the slider problems

The S22 is a very nice wheel. It has some QC issues but compared to other wheels it stacks up very well. It is super easy to disassemble and maintain - practically a dream come true. Yes, the trolley handle is not ideal, but it works ok if you trolley backward once you get used to it. At least it isn't flimsy or falls apart like some other brands.

[Drunkard]

20 hours ago, slippyfeet said:

 

I know it's early to tell but somehow suspension seems off? ElectricDreams is not the smallest guy and when he is bouncing on it it's moving not that much.. 88mm travel seems quite a but smaller even compared to T4 

Wheel does not stand as tall and does seem nimble to ride, but having the same big, bulky, heavy geometry parts as S22 and S19 but getting so little benefit of them while bringing weight to 33+kg. Seems worrying they might have not did much research and just tried to scale it down and ship it. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Drunkard

[eezo]

2 hours ago, Drunkard said:

Wheel does not stand as tall and does seem nimble to ride, but having the same big, bulky, heavy geometry parts as S22 and S19 but getting so little benefit of them while bringing weight to 33+kg. Seems worrying they might have not did much research and just tried to scale it down and ship it. 

I mean, you can look at it as:

• Vs 16x:
  • Same price
  • Suspension
  • Modern BMS
• Vs S19:
  • $900 less
  • Smaller wheel size
  • Smaller battery
• Vs V12 HT:
  • Same price
  • Suspension
  • Modern BMS
  • Slower
• Vs S18:
  • $200 more
  • More user friendly shell design

Weight is the only downside to this wheel, and it's only a downside if weight matters to someone. Look at it another way; if weight doesn't matter to someone, what's a better option around this size at or under the $2000 price point for someone who wants more than a V8F/S or A2 style wheel? $2k isn't entry level cost, but for someone looking to jump in at a tier above entry level, this looks better than the V11, T4, V12, and S18.

Edited August 17, 2023 by eezo

[Mango]

Kingsong missed an opportunity to release a S18 with 16" tire and 100v system, keep the battery the same capacity. It would have been a worthy successor to the 16x for city commuting. This current S16 is just ugly with many backwards features like the trolley and slider.

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

Kingsong missed an opportunity to release a S18 with 16" tire and 100v system, keep the battery the same capacity. It would have been a worthy successor to the 16x for city commuting. This current S16 is just ugly with many backwards features like the trolley and slider.

Even ks16s would have been better.. With updated motor available to go 40km/h. That's real city/commuter wheel going on sidewalks.. You street riders have already to many wheels to choose from. 

[onewheelkoregro]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

Kingsong missed an opportunity to release a S18 with 16" tire and 100v system, keep the battery the same capacity. It would have been a worthy successor to the 16x for city commuting. This current S16 is just ugly with many backwards features like the trolley and slider.

They probably didn't want to take the risk after the S20/S22 disaster. Just went with the reliable and known 16x with it's 84v and just added suspension and a touchscreen. It will definitely pull some sales but I was looking for an upgrade not a downgrade so it is  disappointing that Kingsong didn't want to take the risk and join the 134v big boys

[techyiam]

13 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

17 hours ago, Mango said:

Kingsong missed an opportunity to release a S18 with 16" tire and 100v system, keep the battery the same capacity. It would have been a worthy successor to the 16x for city commuting. This current S16 is just ugly with many backwards features like the trolley and slider.

They probably didn't want to take the risk after the S20/S22 disaster. Just went with the reliable and known 16x with it's 84v and just added suspension and a touchscreen. It will definitely pull some sales but I was looking for an upgrade not a downgrade so it is  disappointing that Kingsong didn't want to take the risk and join the 134v big boys

I think borrowing the S18 chassis for the underpinning of the S16 could have been a viable alternative too.

Perhaps they could have use the Samsung 50S high discharge, high capacity cells, in 134.4 V, 2P battery configuration.

32 cells (134.4 V) x 3.6 V (nominal voltage 50S) x 5 Ah (cell capacity) x 2P = 1152 Wh.

20 cells (84V) x 3.7 V (nominal voltage) x 5 Ah (cell capacity) x 4P = 1480 Wh. (S16)

20 cells (84V) x 3.7 V (nominal voltage) x 5 Ah (cell capacity) x 3P = 1110 Wh.  (S18)

 

That is 64 (2x32) cells vs 60 (3x20) cells vs 80 (4x20) vs cells.

 

But 50S cells has a 25A maximum continuous discharge rating, and 45 A with 80C temperature cut.

Use a 3.00 x 12 tire, and the weight should remain below 60 lbs.

Yup, that is assuming Kingsong can do 134.4 V.

Edited August 18, 2023 by techyiam

[zaft]

3p was one of the bigger complaints of the s18, where as a 4p likely would resolve some issues for that model. No one knows what a 134v pack looks like after a couple years of hard use, I wonder if the bottom end is very potent in a 2p design at that voltage. 

[mrelwood]

On 8/15/2023 at 11:34 PM, Circuitmage said:

1. Why do we need suspension? Did I miss something 2 or 3 years ago that made everyone want to put suspension on wheels?

You did. It’s a significant improvement in ride comfort, off-road capability, and ride safety.

On 8/15/2023 at 11:34 PM, Circuitmage said:

2. Why are they going toward wider tires? This makes a little sense to me, but 3" seems a bit much IMHO. Can we just stick with 2.75"?

There aren’t really 2.75” tires for EUCs. Some motorcycle tire designations are 2.75-14 (= 80/100-14 = 18x3), but the measurement is taken at the tire carcass, so the thread takes it up to 3” anyway. 2.5” bicycle tire ( V10(F) ) is the one step smaller size group.

 Also, the MSX was the first to introduce a 3” wide tire in 2018. I can’t think of a new wheel launched since that that didn’t have a 3” tire. So they’re not moving to wider tires, they’ve stayed put for 5 years already.

On 8/15/2023 at 11:34 PM, Circuitmage said:

4. Why have they abandoned the clam shell design? It seems such an elegant, sleek style. I think if I go to a wider frame wheel I will feel like my legs are spread open.

I don’t like wide wheels either, but it’s not the ~5mm shell that really determines the width. It comes from other design decisions. If you like sleek wheels, look into Inmotions. They seem to be the only ones retaining a sleek design.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 9:32 AM, techyiam said:

For $2000, you are still getting a quality piece.

I’m not ready to talk about the S16 quality just yet. After all, all KS wheels launched since 2020 have had significant quality issues.

 

On 8/18/2023 at 2:11 AM, onewheelkoregro said:

just added suspension and a touchscreen.

The S16 doesn’t have a touchscreen, just a display.

 

44 minutes ago, zaft said:

3p was one of the bigger complaints of the s18, where as a 4p likely would resolve some issues for that model.

Definitely. But the reports of a modded S18 with high discharge cells were very promising. They said that the lack of power in the original construction was resolved.

[bpong]

with all the work (that is documented in this forum) on what people have done to kingsong suspension wheels to make them work smoothly,  would the KS16 be any different ?

[slippyfeet]

32 minutes ago, bpong said:

with all the work (that is documented in this forum) on what people have done to kingsong suspension wheels to make them work smoothly,  would the KS16 be any different ?

@Andy.Linare you still around & within Kingsong's current works? I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear updates from the inside

[techyiam]

42 minutes ago, slippyfeet said:

@Andy.Linare you still around & within Kingsong's current works? I'm sure a lot of us would like to hear updates from the inside

Andy is no longer an employee of Kingsong. 

[OldFartRides]

Well that didn’t last long…

[yoos]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:49 AM, mrelwood said:

 Also, the MSX was the first to introduce a 3” wide tire in 2018. I can’t think of a new wheel launched since that that didn’t have a 3” tire. So they’re not moving to wider tires, they’ve stayed put for 5 years already.

I would also remind that there was the Ninebot Z10 at 4" wide. So 3" isn't even the widest choice of 5 years ago. 3" is simply the sweet spot and now the industry standard, except for some compacts where 2.125, 2.5 can still be found. I remember how hard it is to even find and mount non-stock tires for the 18L (2.5") so I'm all for 3". Those millimeters can be salvaged elsewhere by ergonomic design, indeed.

[DjPanJan]

On my 16X i love troley handle S16 handle not look that "sexy". 

Time tell S16 is interesting product i dont know for who exactly but definetly interesting.

Personaly prefer S16 over S19 and S22/Pro 

In real scenario my wife have problems "handle " sherman clasic weight 35Kg compare to 25Kg EUC (16x) MSP HT. 

For me 40Kg patton weight is OK for lifting and stairs becasue good handles on patton.

I full understand Suspension is always 4-6Kg more compare to non suspension EUCs.

And S16 range if is motor same like 16X i expect 70Km range with ECO speeds.

S16 speed is Ok for me i not ride over 40km/h my 16X is locked at 40km/h(GPS +-35km/h) years.

Why i write this? I have 16X and MSP for sell actualy. And thiking about 16X replacement. Msp HT replacement is easy is just patton.

16X is my first choice if i not ride long distances or i need go to shop/fast food and 25Kg is easy to lift and manipulate.