Kingsong S16 coming...

[meepmeepmayer]

King Song was at a trade show in Germany? Where was that?

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

King Song was at a trade show in Germany? Where was that?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxExp4zSE48/

IFA Berlin,

You missed them. They will be followed by exhibitions in Hong Kong, China and Milan, Italy. 

You can ask them directly on the spot what they think about the future or give them your suggestions, they are the top leaders of each department.

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

King Song was at a trade show in Germany? Where was that?

Haha, you missed a good time to test ride the S9 and S16.

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh no, not the S9 missed!

I thought there was a more specialized show than just "general tech stuff" IFA that I missed. But cool for KS to send someone there.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, EUC BB said:

You can ask them directly on the spot what they think about the future or give them your suggestions, they are the top leaders of each department.

Have you been one of these exhibitions before? Are you an insider, so to speak? Thanks.

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

36 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Have you been one of these exhibitions before? Are you an insider, so to speak? Thanks.

https://www.instagram.com/kingsong.international/#

What makes you think I'm an insider? Is it because I'm a new account?

Actually, they send out invitations to every exhibition. I haven't been to any of the shows, even Hong Kong, I just have a friend in Kingsong who likes to share me Kingsong euc news.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, EUC BB said:

Actually, they send out invitations to every exhibition. I haven't been to any of the shows, even Hong Kong, I just have a friend in Kingsong who likes to share me Kingsong euc news.

Thanks, that makes sense. Lucky you.

If you are allow, and you have the info, can you confirm what Denis Hagov was told by Kingsong at the Exhibition in Germany that Kingsong is working on a new premium line of wheels: the F-Series? Thanks.

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Thanks, that makes sense. Lucky you.

If you are allow, and you have the info, can you confirm what Denis Hagov was told by Kingsong at the Exhibition in Germany that Kingsong is working on a new premium line of wheels: the F-Series? Thanks.

Did Dennis learn that from the German show? I'm not sure, I haven't seen that video, but I think the F should be true. All I know is that it will outperform the S22 pro, it's too early to tell about the numbers, expect them to be released next year.

Now I'm just looking forward to what they're going to change S16 to.

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

22 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Thanks, that makes sense. Lucky you.

If you are allow, and you have the info, can you confirm what Denis Hagov was told by Kingsong at the Exhibition in Germany that Kingsong is working on a new premium line of wheels: the F-Series? Thanks.

I don't know, I just hope they release it next year. EUC comes out with new products every year, there's nothing to hide. If someone did reveal internal data, then it means it's not far from release.

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, EUC BB said:

Did Dennis learn that from the German show?

That was what I deduced based on what he said in his video.

The F-Series wheel should have 126 V and 3330 Wh battery. Supposedly, it will be heavier and bigger than the S22 Pro.

Timestamped.

 

[techyiam]

25 minutes ago, EUC BB said:

Now I'm just looking forward to what they're going to change S16 to.

This will be interesting since this wheel is priced well. On paper, it does look promising so far. Meanwhile, the V11Y is applying pressure. I hope that Kingsong can pull this one off.

[mike_bike_kite]

I like this wheel. I use my wheel purely for transport in the city and on suburban roads. I don't ride up and down stairs but I wouldn't mind suspension IF the wheel wasn't going to fall apart in a crash. I liked the look of the S22 but it's more wheel than I need and it costs more than I'd want to pay - particularly as the police here in the UK can confiscate wheels. The S19 on paper looks a better fit for me but it just doesn't look very rugged. The S16 seems to be well designed, especially with the pads protecting the wheel in a fall. Whether pads are a good addition on a wheel like this is another question - it would help with braking but I'd imagine pads would also make it easier to make the wheel cut out.

Things I don't mind are the 84v - the older 84v wheels seem to offer more range and the batteries are generally safer but obviously you get less ooomph.

Things I'm not sure about are the rear light - is it that difficult to put a decent red light on the back of these wheels? is red just unlucky for the Chinese? I don't like all the silly stuff like the unnecessary LED lighting or the speakers but hey ho. Can all the lights be quickly turned off so I can walk into supermarkets etc or do I need to pull my phone out each time? Can the pedals be adjusted? It would be nice to know how comfortable the handle is for a 6'3" person (190cm). Is the new version of the suspension OK now? Is the S16 about the same size as the old 16X? I assume it's much bigger than the old 16S. Real world range would be nice to know - will it be like the old 16X which was great.

My only worry is that I ride between 40-50kph on the road (I never go off-road, at least not on purpose). How guaranteed is that 50kph? is it just at 100% battery or will it cut out if the battery creeps down to 40%? Today I was on my Nikola Plus with the battery at 25% and comfortably cruising at 30mph without beeps. I don't mind loosing a little speed but I just don't want a wheel to cut out on me. 

I'm actually a bit surprised they don't use a more modular design for all their suspension wheels - those parts you'd expect to be common across the wheels are different. Having everything different on each wheel means parts will be harder to source and more expensive. 

 

[mrelwood]

 

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Whether pads are a good addition on a wheel like this is another question - it would help with braking but I'd imagine pads would also make it easier to make the wheel cut out.

I think pads are warranted on all wheels that go faster than 35km/h or have a tire larger than 16x2.5”. Especially if the wheel has a modern hard response that accelerates and brakes much more sluggishly than the firmwares and wheels from 2017.

Hence people use pads even on the 16X. The S16 should have much more power. Of course it’s easier to overlean than without pads, as without them it’s practically impossible on full battery.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

the older 84v wheels seem to offer more range and the batteries are generally safer

More range partially because they can’t be pushed as hard at faster speeds. In a 1:1 comparison a higher voltage would actually have slightly more range.

Not sure why 84V would be safer though. If the batteries go boom, they go out with quite a flash no matter the voltage.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Can all the lights be quickly turned off so I can walk into supermarkets etc or do I need to pull my phone out each time?

Traditionally the headlight can be turned off with a short press on the power button, but I don’t think KS has offered an easy way to the RGB lights.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Can the pedals be adjusted?

I doubt it.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Is the S16 about the same size as the old 16X?

Pretty much. A good bit wider though.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Real world range would be nice to know

Real world range will be 30-120km, depending on all kinds of factors. Please don’t compare range figures to anything other than figures from the exact same rider under the exact same circumstances. The announced range will probably be 150km, but it doesn’t tell you anything about the range you’ll get. It has a range of a 1500Wh 30kg wheel.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

My only worry is that I ride between 40-50kph on the road (I never go off-road, at least not on purpose). How guaranteed is that 50kph? is it just at 100% battery or will it cut out if the battery creeps down to 40%?

KS and Inmotion wheels have an electronically limited top speed that always gives you a decent amount of headroom. It means that they have more power headroom at max speed than a Begode at it’s own max speed. Usually KS wheels’ top speed limit stays the same down to 30-50%. Then it gradually goes down to something like 15km/h at 0%. It doesn’t cut out unless you accelerate stupidly fast as the battery gets lower.
 

Begodes and Gotways let you accelerate slowly all the way until it suddenly loses balance. (Some newest Begodes do have a dynamic tilt-back, but I assume you can still turn it off.) KS and IM don’t let you do that. They tilt you back before the speed gets too high.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

My only worry is that I ride between 40-50kph on the road

I would say legitimate worry. It is hard to know under what conditions you will riding under: headwind, up a hill, bumps, potholes, emergency braking, sudden acceleration, etc, when riding near 50 km/h.

However, Jason at ewheels is talking to Kingsong to get the top speed raised to 60 km/h, and swap in Samsung 50S cells.

Edited September 22, 2023 by techyiam

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

9 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Things I'm not sure about are the rear light

There are red rear lights.

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

I would say legitimate worry. It is hard to know under what conditions you will riding under: headwind, up a hill, bumps, potholes, emergency braking, sudden acceleration, etc, when riding near 50 km/h.

However, Jason at ewheels is talking to Kingsong to get the top speed raised to 60 km/h, and swap in Samsung 50S cells.

Only a small batch does this and they will be sold to those in need.

 

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

They tilt you back before the speed gets too high.

The lower the battery, the more careful you need to ride. I have never heard of a fall due to insufficient battery.

If you continue to ride at high speed when the battery is low, you will lose power and be thrown out by inertia when the battery runs out.

EUC should all have low battery protection mode. There’s nothing to say about this, it’s definitely written in the user manual.

[mike_bike_kite]

On 8/15/2023 at 8:33 PM, Funky said:

Now i want to get something lighter, in 20kgs or under. NO WAY i'm gonna get something heavier than my 18xl.  Heck i'm even ready to pay 3000$ for something that is slower/weaker than my 18xl. All i want is 30km range and 40km/h speed and hollow bore motor. It's doable pretty easily. Most wheels under 20kg can already go 35km/h speeds...

It sounds like an Inmotion V10F is in your future.

23 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Not sure why 84V would be safer though. 

I only see one or two fires on any 84v wheels and they all seem to have come from misuse.

23 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 It has a range of a 1500Wh 30kg wheel.

I don't think it's that simple. The voltage does seem to play a large part in range as the older 84v wheels from KS go further than the modern higher voltage wheels even though the older 84v wheels had smaller batteries. I know you can go faster on these newer wheels but when looking at real world tests from careful riders (like Marty) then their range results show the difference. 

I'm not convinced the weight of the wheel would make much of a difference. 

23 hours ago, mrelwood said:

KS and Inmotion wheels have an electronically limited top speed that always gives you a decent amount of headroom. It means that they have more power headroom at max speed than a Begode at it’s own max speed. Usually KS wheels’ top speed limit stays the same down to 30-50%. Then it gradually goes down to something like 15km/h at 0%. It doesn’t cut out unless you accelerate stupidly fast as the battery gets lower.
 

Begodes and Gotways let you accelerate slowly all the way until it suddenly loses balance. (Some newest Begodes do have a dynamic tilt-back, but I assume you can still turn it off.) KS and IM don’t let you do that. They tilt you back before the speed gets too high.

The 16X did have a lot of cut outs reported. They usually came from larger riders (like me) riding around 30mph (50kph). I think it was something to do with the top speed being dynamically changed as the battery level declined - one moment everything was fine then the battery touched 40% and the top speed gets reset and the wheel cut out as it was exceeding the new top speed. It was the reason I went for the Nikola rather than the 16X because I knew I needed that 30mph top end for certain roads I have to travel on. 

Unfortunately the S22 is probably too much wheel for me and more money than I want to spend. I like the performance figures of the S19 but it just looks too fragile for me. The S16 looks much better designed and more strongly built but I suspect it will perform the same as the older 16X and just be a little too slow for the roads where I live. I'll admit I find it more enjoyable riding at 25mph (40kph) but if vehicles are moving at 30mph (50kph) then I have to move at the same speed. On my Nikola Plus I set the top speed to 30mph (50kmh) and it tilts me back if I start to exceed this and if I accelerate too hard on a hill with a low battery then the beeps warn me but I certainly never worry about a cut out.

[onewheelkoregro]

On 9/22/2023 at 12:12 PM, techyiam said:

I would say legitimate worry. It is hard to know under what conditions you will riding under: headwind, up a hill, bumps, potholes, emergency braking, sudden acceleration, etc, when riding near 50 km/h.

However, Jason at ewheels is talking to Kingsong to get the top speed raised to 60 km/h, and swap in Samsung 50S cells.

If the top speed is 60km/h I would get it. I am looking at s19's because 50 km/h is too slow. 70 km/h would be ideal but I would settle for 60

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

If the top speed is 60km/h I would get it. I am looking at s19's because 50 km/h is too slow. 70 km/h would be ideal but I would settle for 60

Bradley at Eevees and Denis Hagov at euc.sale seem to really like the S19.

As for the S16, will have to see what people have to say about it.

Also, Ride One in Toronto on Instagram said that Inmotion shared with him the wheels they are currently working on, and the V11 is not on the list.

Edited September 23, 2023 by techyiam

[Funky]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It sounds like an Inmotion V10F is in your future.

Same axle as my 18xl.. Not worth the exchange for 5kg savings. Also getting new M/C summer tire, or (do it yourself) studded winter tire.

Also Inmotion V10 doesn't catch my attention. It's the same 18xl only 16" incher.

I have already looked at all of the "older" lighter wheels - none is "good enough" for me. I was looking at Begode A2 for a while, when i though it was 19kg. But when i found out it was 21kg.. It wasn't worth it.. If i would buy again at 1kg more (22kg), i would get regular KS18L instead.. Which is 18", 2200W, 31mpg wheel. Versus weak A2.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Funky

[Pengloong]

If S16 top speed is 60km/h, I would certainly get one also.

Agree, 50km/h is just too slow. 

[mrelwood]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:30 AM, EUC BB said:

The lower the battery, the more careful you need to ride. I have never heard of a fall due to insufficient battery.

There have been a numerous cutouts on Begode and similar wheels where the rider rides as if they had a full battery. The battery can’t provide the power and speed requested, and down they went.

On 9/23/2023 at 5:30 AM, EUC BB said:

If you continue to ride at high speed when the battery is low, you will lose power and be thrown out by inertia when the battery runs out.

“Thrown out by inertia“…? What do you mean by that?

On 9/23/2023 at 5:30 AM, EUC BB said:

EUC should all have low battery protection mode. There’s nothing to say about this, it’s definitely written in the user manual.

All wheels tilt you back when the battery gets below the specified low voltage limit. They don’t suddenly cut out no matter how low the voltage dropped. Some wheels from 2015 did though.

 

On 9/23/2023 at 8:03 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

The voltage does seem to play a large part in range as the older 84v wheels from KS go further than the modern higher voltage wheels even though the older 84v wheels had smaller batteries.

Can you explain why the low voltage wheels would have a better range?

On 9/23/2023 at 8:03 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm not convinced the weight of the wheel would make much of a difference.

The total weight of the wheel and the rider makes a significant difference. I have ridden with 10-15kg lighter riders on the same wheel numerous times. They always get much more range than I do.

On 9/23/2023 at 8:03 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

The 16X did have a lot of cut outs reported.

The 16X never had the power needed for a 50km/h wheel. It should’ve been limited to 40km/h from the start. Some have said that it was supposed to be a 40km/h wheel but that KS increased the speed due to public outcry. I don’t personally remember that though.

Doesn’t the 16X have a free spin speed of 68km/h? The V11 for example has a 78km/h free spin speed, both limited to 50km/h.

On 9/23/2023 at 8:03 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

one moment everything was fine then the battery touched 40% and the top speed gets reset and the wheel cut out as it was exceeding the new top speed.

That’s not at all how it works. That would be crazy!

On 9/23/2023 at 8:03 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

On my Nikola Plus I set the top speed to 30mph (50kmh) and it tilts me back if I start to exceed this

When the battery gets lower on KS and Inmotion wheels, the speed at which it tilts you back gets gradually lower. It’s called a “dynamic tilt-back”. It never just switches to a lower speed range or otherwise jumps at you, it’s always a slow gradual change. And it never just cuts out on you out of the blue like GotWays and Begodes do, it will always tilt you back well before you reach speeds that are dangerously high for the battery level at that time (unless you accelerate like crazy and it doesn’t have enough time to do that, or you overlean).

They will also tilt back earlier if you ride uphill, against a strong headwind etc, because they also monitor the output power and the motor current of the wheel (among other things). All these things affect the speed at which it tilts you back. And it never does anything suddenly, all speed limit changes are slow and gradual. And even the tilt-back itself is slow enough not to throw you out, as you should know from your experience with the Nikola tilt-back.

 While the tilt-back speed changes based on the circumstances, the highest speed it is programmed to is easily achievable on level ground when accelerated with a reasonable or gentler rate. This is true down to 30-50% battery, after which the top speed gets lowered. Gradually.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Can you explain why the low voltage wheels would have a better range?

In all honesty I don't think I can but then I'm not sure I have to. I can simply point to various 84v wheels like the 18XL and 16X they both get over 80km with 1554Wh batteries. That's an economy of 19Wh/km. My 100v Nikola has an economy of about 24Wh/km but the 84v Nicola economy is better at 20Wh/km. Similarly with the 84v Monster (16Kw/Km) vs the 100v Monster (24Wh/km). If we go to higher voltage wheels like the S22 which is 2400Wh it has an economy of only 30Wh/km. I could go on...

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The 16X never had the power needed for a 50km/h wheel. It should’ve been limited to 40km/h from the start.

The problem (in my eyes) is that the S16 is the new 16X but with suspension. I liked the 16X but it wasn't fast enough and it cost more than the Nikola Plus I have now. If the S16 has a similar top speed issue then it probably isn't for me which is a shame as I like almost every other aspect of the wheel S16. 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

the speed at which it [the 16X] tilts you back gets gradually lower. It’s called a “dynamic tilt-back”. It never just switches to a lower speed range or otherwise jumps at you, it’s always a slow gradual change. And it never just cuts out on you out of the blue like GotWays and Begodes

There was however a lot of riders of the 16X that had cut outs. Very few of them could understand why. It was usually when they were suspiciously close to the 40% limit.

Strictly speaking it's the users that turn off the tilt back on their Gotways in order to see how fast they can go. When they then exceed the top speed of the wheel it cuts out. That's a fault of the users and not the wheel. My own Gotway tilts back very reliably at the 30mph top speed I have set. If the 900Wh battery packs were a little safer then I'd be more than happy with my current wheel.

 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

In all honesty I don't think I can but then I'm not sure I have to. I can simply point to various 84v wheels like the 18XL and 16X they both get over 80km with 1554Wh batteries. That's an economy of 19Wh/km. My 100v Nikola has an economy of about 24Wh/km but the 84v Nicola economy is better at 20Wh/km. Similarly with the 84v Monster (16Kw/Km) vs the 100v Monster (24Wh/km). If we go to higher voltage wheels like the S22 which is 2400Wh it has an economy of only 30Wh/km. I could go on...

Interesting. To make any sense of these though one would have to know how each test were ridden, how heavy the rider was, etc. and calculate also the low voltage threshold for each wheel. For example 0% on the 18XL is 3.0V per cell, while on the Nikola it is 3.3V. This alone gives the Nikola a good bit less range.

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

There was however a lot of riders of the 16X that had cut outs. Very few of them could understand why. It was usually when they were suspiciously close to the 40% limit.

Knowing what we know now, it doesn’t sound all that surprising. A wheel that should’ve been a 40km/h wheel with a full battery, and start declining from there. 40km/h on 40% battery is a speed you’d need to ride quite carefully. It damn well sucks and is shameless neglect that stuff like this is left for the community to figure out.

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Strictly speaking it's the users that turn off the tilt back on their Gotways in order to see how fast they can go.

The problem with the GotWay’s original tilt-back implementation was that the highest speed it could be set at was 48km/h. Even on 60-70km/h wheels. If you want to go faster than 48km/h, you need to remove the tilt-back completely. If that’s not a provocation not to use the feature I don’t know what is.

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

My own Gotway tilts back very reliably at the 30mph top speed I have set.

The second problem is that it tilts back only at 30mph even when the battery is empty. You’d have no business riding 30mph with an empty battery.

Third problem is that the same goes for riding uphill on half the battery. Or any other kind of extra burden that decreases the wheel’s capabilities. You might not reach 30mph before you eat it.

A well implemented dynamic tilt-back onKS and Inmotion doesn’t have any of these issues. The latest Begode firmwares are finally starting to have a dynamic tilt-back of some sort, but I have no idea how well it’s implemented.

Edited September 26, 2023 by mrelwood

[DjPanJan]

16S failed in my eyes in something what 16X is BEST in CONVINIENCE.

16X i love how balanced EUC is how efortless acelerate and AMAZING troley handle for real world shoping and move around people.

About speed i dont care my 16X is now limited on 30km/h (40 km/h limit most of the time i own him)

 16S troley looks realy MEH to compare 16X (2019 my production).

I alredy sell MSP HT with nostalgic tear in eye still ride excelent but is 2019 and Begode safety is beter not store in house in 2023(sell with 4040km riden only).

Why i talk about MSP becasue S16 have S***Y handle too inconvinient solution.

Prooved by patton  bad place for handle + patton handle is bad cant lock self securely/good and still i need fight with troley to not close by self pure fail compare to 16X and sherman classic troley.

I love torque no need speed i want weather resistance (ride after rain etc) and weight what is managable hold in one hand and S16 propably not fit into this criteria. 

 

[Kingsong second hand eucs]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:18 PM, mrelwood said:

“Thrown out by inertia“…? What do you mean by that?

potential inertia (physics)

Imagine there is no low battery protection, your euc loses power without warning and has no balance, and you happen to be traveling at 50mph (without a seatbelt). They are not cars and can continue for some distance. They lose power and the gyroscope loses its effect. So all those people complaining about mandatory speed limits on low power don't think about their own safety?