Kingsong S16 coming...

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I don't think it comes like this from factory, it's the same mounting system as S22, I'm sure Zen Lee or Topspin mounted them this way.

You appear to be right. The pedals look to be aftermarket too.

Timestamped.

 

[eezo]

5 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I disagree with offset forward being good position for pedals.

I don't think it comes like this from factory, it's the same mounting system as S22, I'm sure Zen Lee or Topspin mounted them this way.

Kingsong's promotional videos showed the offset forward position as well.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, eezo said:

Kingsong's promotional videos showed the offset forward position as well.

OK, there appears to be two types of pedals. The early ones were more like the S22 where the length of the pedals was longer than the width of the battery boxes. In the latest video from Kingsong, the length of the pedals are now about the same width of the battery boxes. And these new pedals are now centered on the battery boxes.

Having said that, the battery boxes are not centered to the wheel, and is forward biased. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by techyiam

[macgyvercanada]

Quote

ankle bone should be centered. 

That's a bit too far forward...  I'd say that center still needs to be in between the ball and heel of the foot, though perhaps a bit more toward the heel.

[Rawnei]

The pedals in the middle of the motor like on the S22 feels optimal already, same like on other wheels, gives you good balanced center position over the motor, if you move the pedals forward you're offsetting that balance in favor of making it easier to lean forward and more difficult to lean backward not to mention it won't feel centered when doing more technical things (I can't imagine riding like that on difficult off-road terrain where slow speed control is essential), not to mention the pedals will extrude over the tire and increase odds of pedal clipping, for me personally that feels like a sort of handicap instead of learning to leverage the wheel in a centered position.

[eezo]

On 11/16/2023 at 12:16 PM, Rawnei said:

The pedals in the middle of the motor like on the S22 feels optimal already, same like on other wheels, gives you good balanced center position over the motor, if you move the pedals forward you're offsetting that balance in favor of making it easier to lean forward and more difficult to lean backward not to mention it won't feel centered when doing more technical things (I can't imagine riding like that on difficult off-road terrain where slow speed control is essential), not to mention the pedals will extrude over the tire and increase odds of pedal clipping, for me personally that feels like a sort of handicap instead of learning to leverage the wheel in a centered position.

That's the thing, though, centered pedals means your body's levers are not centered, because the ankle bone is too far back. The ankle bone is the pivot point, so having that close to center on the wheel results in better control, not worse.

Edited November 17, 2023 by eezo

[macgyvercanada]

41 minutes ago, eezo said:

That's the thing, though, centered pedals means your body's levers are not centered, because the ankle bone is too far back. The ankle bone is the pivot point, so having that close to center on the wheel results in better control, not worse.

If you think that is a true statement then please try lifting your toes up off the pedals while you ride and let me know how that goes.

The ankle is the mobile joint, but the overall center of motion is mid-foot.  If the ankle is centered on a forward-aligned pedal then you would not be able to brake without the use of power pads; you'd have no leverage!

[eezo]

19 minutes ago, macgyvercanada said:

If you think that is a true statement then please try lifting your toes up off the pedals while you ride and let me know how that goes.

The ankle is the mobile joint, but the overall center of motion is mid-foot.  If the ankle is centered on a forward-aligned pedal then you would not be able to brake without the use of power pads; you'd have no leverage!

Lifting one's toes off the pedals shifts the center of gravity, of course it changes the control. Nothing about that invalidates anything I said.

[Rawnei]

Plus we don't usually ride with straight legs we also have slightly bent legs which gives an offset forward position by itself. 😁

[Robse]

I see trouble coming...but on the other hand, if someone in the EUC industry can launch something like version 1.0 , and no problems appear, then it will be quite an unusual problem for the competitors

[zaft]

4 hours ago, Robse said:

I see trouble coming...but on the other hand, if someone in the EUC industry can launch something like version 1.0 , and no problems appear, then it will be quite an unusual problem for the competitors

Yikes! 😬 

[Paul D]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:25 PM, macgyvercanada said:

If you think that is a true statement then please try lifting your toes up off the pedals while you ride and let me know how that goes.

The ankle is the mobile joint, but the overall center of motion is mid-foot.  If the ankle is centered on a forward-aligned pedal then you would not be able to brake without the use of power pads; you'd have no leverage!

This has to be correct because I can walk without falling on my face. Imagine walking on ankle nubbins?

[ORDO NOVUS]

i see that this video already been here, but nobody of you have paid attention to the crucial moments

s16 suicidae

suspension is completely broken and unsafe from zero

it is poorly engineered and poorly executed. 

Extruded aluminum chasis is already bent.

Shock absorber axis' are bent 

Linkage system is poorly engineered and is failing inevitably

trolley handle  is poorly engineered and is squeaking terrible

and all this after usage of a low weight rider. No conclusions were made after s19 failgeeniring, just copy paste and resize to lower dimensions

R.I.P KingSong

 

 

[xafofo]

great observations

it does seem like the unit with the bent suspension is some kind of testing unit, it's got a different front bumper. we also don't know exactly what kind of testing it's been through

I think we should wait for the actual production units to fairly judge...

[techyiam]

31 minutes ago, ORDO NOVUS said:

s16 suicidae

suspension is completely broken and unsafe from zero

it is poorly engineered and poorly executed. 

Extruded aluminum chasis is already bent.

Shock absorber axis' are bent 

Linkage system is poorly engineered and is failing inevitably

trolley handle  is poorly engineered and is squeaking terrible

and all this after usage of a low weight rider. No conclusions were made after s19 failgeeniring, just copy paste and resize to lower dimensions

My S22:

{1} My S22's suspension was completely not functioning like what a proper suspension should, but I wouldn't say unsafe. It just rode like a non-suspension wheel, except that it took out the jolts. However, the suspension of any suspension wheel can be damaged when operating outside the design point. So, was it abuse, or was it a suspension defective?

(2) The original S22 was poorly engineered and poorly implemented for a couple of critical subsystems. ie. motor (stator slippage), sliders that don't slide.

(3) The only extruded aluminum parts are the battery boxes. Although, they are a structural component, my battery boxes were not bent nor damaged. Since they are extruded, and have a box geometry, it would be pretty difficult to bend them.

(4) My shock mounting bolts were fine. But I don't do drops nor jumps. The shock eyelets need to be completely free to rotate. Also, bottoming can bend the shock mounting hardware.

(5) The pin joints in the linkage have always been a hit and miss for many wheels. All the pin joints in the linkage were redone on my wheel to ensure they are completely free to rotate.

(6) My trolley handle squeak terribly since unboxing. But it doesn't squeak anymore. Minor residue QC issue from the S22.

 

My S22 does not have the roller sliders, but both the S16 and S22 Pro do.

So, it seems like Kingsong hasn't make much improvements in QC for the S16. I am not seeing why the S16 is such a big failure, though.

Note that the S16 is mostly a learner's wheel, or perhaps a second wheel.

And it is priced accordingly.

 

Is there a link in English detailing the issues?

Without the examination of the issues in details, it is hard to understand why the S16 is such a bad wheel.

[ORDO NOVUS]

1 hour ago, xafofo said:

great observations

it does seem like the unit with the bent suspension is some kind of testing unit, it's got a different front bumper. we also don't know exactly what kind of testing it's been through

I think we should wait for the actual production units to fairly judge...

comtrol board holder (chasis) is bent - this is what holds everything together and provide rigidity. on s18 it has never been bent, neither on s22.

it doesnt matter if this sample is from test batch or later one, it is design flaw that can be fixed only by redesigning whole chasis structure

 

[techyiam]

24 minutes ago, ORDO NOVUS said:

comtrol board holder (chasis) is bent - this is what holds everything together and provide rigidity. on s18 it has never been bent, neither on s22.

it doesnt matter if this sample is from test batch or later one, it is design flaw that can be fixed only by redesigning whole chasis structure

You mean the top sub-structure that provide support for the two battery boxes to fasten to at the top, and which also houses the control board.

To make this sub-structure stronger is quite straightforward.

People complained that the S16 weighed too much, so Kingsong said they would look into it to make it lighter. I guess without details as to how it got bent, it is not clear whether the S16 was abused, or Kingsong went to far to make the S16 lighter.

[Uras]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:43 AM, eezo said:

That's the thing, though, centered pedals means your body's levers are not centered, because the ankle bone is too far back. The ankle bone is the pivot point, so having that close to center on the wheel results in better control, not worse.

if you ride with straight legs you'd have a point. Consider where your knees are most of the time - and therefore your central mass.

[ORDO NOVUS]

22 hours ago, techyiam said:

You mean the top sub-structure that provide support for the two battery boxes to fasten to at the top, and which also houses the control board.

To make this sub-structure stronger is quite straightforward.

People complained that the S16 weighed too much, so Kingsong said they would look into it to make it lighter. I guess without details as to how it got bent, it is not clear whether the S16 was abused, or Kingsong went to far to make the S16 lighter.

look at my mutant s18 with 4 parallel batteries, even in this configuration, it is only 27kg and rigid as hell

so, no excuses for kingsong making a 30kg disaster, using no previous experience.

even s22 was fail machine without "roller mode" that was stolen by kicksong from russian euc customizer.

it is year 2024, 5 years since first batch of s18 and no lessons were learned by them.

they could add 2kg to s18 - additional battery and make lighter and better wheel, but no - seems that they lost understanding of their ancestor technology.

[Uras]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:27 PM, macgyvercanada said:

I hear KingSong hasn't exactly been the most reliable lately either, but maybe I'm willing to give 'em a chance.

3,600km on my 16x. It's had a ton of crashes. I've only had to replace the fuses which were blown. However, I bought mine only a year ago, so it had been out for quite a while and all / any bugs dealt with. 

I'm also interested in the s16 - I think it is enough wheel for my needs and still a reasonable weight. I'm often carrying the 16x up stairs or lifting it into a shopping trolley. 

I'd still wait for at least a year before buying it though. EUC history hammers that message home to us all the time - it would be silly to ignore it.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Uras

[Uras]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:43 AM, eezo said:

The ankle bone is the pivot point, so having that close to center on the wheel results in better control, not worse.

I was contemplating this some more - your point is good because it makes us think and possibly get closer to the truth. If I play back in my mind riding an euc ankle and knees really seem to be related to up and down movement. Ankle tilt does come into play while braking and accelerating, but I think the main force is from the upper body leaning forward and back - the ankles just allow us to do this while maintaining contact with the pedals. My ankels are definitely behind the center of the wheel - even then sometimes I feel that I'm too far in front of the wheel when I'm riding. If you're into mtb this would be akin to a steep head angle - it feels like that, as though I could trip over my own wheel (less forgiving on turn in).

[Funky]

6 hours ago, Uras said:

3,600km on my 16x. It's had a ton of crashes. I've only had to replace the fuses which were blown. However, I bought mine only a year ago, so it had been out for quite a while and all / any bugs dealt with. 

I'm also interested in the s16 - I think it is enough wheel for my needs and still a reasonable weight. I'm often carrying the 16x up stairs or lifting it into a shopping trolley. 

I'd still wait for at least a year before buying it though. EUC history hammers that message home to us all the time - it would be silly to ignore it.

You can't compare 16x to 16/19s... Which are completely new, just released wheels. As 16x all bugs and things like that where fixed long ago!

Also 16x is a solid wheel. Nothing like "these" new wheels.

[okvp]

S18 V2 weights only 24,2 kg

S18 v2 hollow motor with adapter weights 8,4kg

S22 pro motor is 9,5 kg  that’s  only 1,1kg more

S18 with ks22 pro motor would be only 25,3kg

Change batteries to Samsung 50S and modify controller for S22pro motor and there would be a very light weight 25,3kg suspension wheel with a quite high torque motor.

With a little weight optimization total weight could be under oncoming EU regulated 25kg limit.

Change the plastics flat on the sides for power pads. Add option for two extra parallel batteries.

This would be a really light weight wheel with good torque and decent range (for its weight). Lot’s of already existing parts could be used. And I’m sure it would sell like a hot cake.

Kingsong please do it!

[Funky]

17 minutes ago, okvp said:

S18 V2 weights only 24,2 kg

S18 v2 hollow motor with adapter weights 8,4kg

S22 pro motor is 9,5 kg  that’s  only 1,1kg more

S18 with ks22 pro motor would be only 25,3kg

Change batteries to Samsung 50S and modify controller for S22pro motor and there would be a very light weight 25,3kg suspension wheel with a quite high torque motor.

With a little weight optimization total weight could be under oncoming EU regulated 25kg limit.

Change the plastics flat on the sides for power pads. Add option for two extra parallel batteries.

This would be a really light weight wheel with good torque and decent range (for its weight). Lot’s of already existing parts could be used. And I’m sure it would sell like a hot cake.

Kingsong please do it!

25kg sounds amazing!

Doh i'm looking for sub 20kg for my next euc. As i have found out i have no need of any of these "monster" euc's, that have came out in last ~4 years.

I would be happy with updated ks16s which would have hollow bore motor...

Edited December 2, 2023 by Funky

[ORDO NOVUS]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:43 PM, okvp said:

S18 V2 weights only 24,2 kg

S18 v2 hollow motor with adapter weights 8,4kg

S22 pro motor is 9,5 kg  that’s  only 1,1kg more

S18 with ks22 pro motor would be only 25,3kg

Change batteries to Samsung 50S and modify controller for S22pro motor and there would be a very light weight 25,3kg suspension wheel with a quite high torque motor.

With a little weight optimization total weight could be under oncoming EU regulated 25kg limit.

Change the plastics flat on the sides for power pads. Add option for two extra parallel batteries.

This would be a really light weight wheel with good torque and decent range (for its weight). Lot’s of already existing parts could be used. And I’m sure it would sell like a hot cake.

Kingsong please do it!

with usage of magnesium like leaperkim do, they can go under 25kg  event with 4th parallel, but you are waiting too much from idiots

,that have fixed zero problems of s18 from year 2019

,that produced piece of bad engineering s19

aaaand without tests copied s19 design and produced its "mini me" clone of bad engineering s16