Value of EUC Suspension?

[winterwheel]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

Whenever a discussion like this emerges, I’d love to see the mileage that every commenter has ridden with a properly working and set up suspension EUC. It is generally pretty easy to guess based on the comments, but it would be fun to be able to confirm my suspicions…

I'm coming up on 2k on the EX.

[winterwheel]

5 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

...those 1200 psi shocks look like a nightmare to maintain...

I have had no issues whatsoever with the EX shocks. Pumped them up once, ten minutes tops to get the wheel going, working great still months and a couple of thousand kilometers later. Why people got their knickers into knots over a number is a mystery to me. 

[Tryptych]

Usually the people you find arguing against suspension are the people who don't own a suspension wheel and haven't fully experienced it.

As someone who owns both types of wheel I can tell you with authority: 

Suspension is the real deal and every wheel should have it. It makes your ride so much more comfortable and so much safer. There are absolutely zero drawbacks to having suspension.

Not having suspension makes about as much sense as not having suspension on your car, your motorcycle, your truck, your train etc etc you get my point.

Suspension is simply better.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Tryptych

[Lex Smith]

I think the suspension discussion is a little like the "I don't need an automatic" discussion I used to have in the lunch room at work 40 years ago when I was driving a manual Fiat 125 S which at the time was considered quite a sporty car here in NZ.  I remember my reasons included:

I could driver faster and more economically with a manual
Automatics were more expensive
Automatics were more complex to repair and maintain
Automatics were more unreliable

I also had similar arguments against power steering, ABS brakes, Air conditioning, Electronic ignition and Fuel Injection.

I wouldn't even consider a vehicle without these features now.  Now I know rally car drivers probably still do without the above features but the rest of us have adopted them either because we recognize the advantages of them or to avoid them would actually take quite a lot of effort.

My prediction is that if EUC's become mainstream as a commute device then suspension will be the norm.  Feel free to tell me I'm wrong in 40 years :-)

 

[.....]

51 minutes ago, Lex Smith said:

I think the suspension discussion is a little like the "I don't need an automatic" discussion I used to have in the lunch room at work 40 years ago when I was driving a manual Fiat 125 S which at the time was considered quite a sporty car here in NZ.  I remember my reasons included:

I could driver faster and more economically with a manual
Automatics were more expensive
Automatics were more complex to repair and maintain
Automatics were more unreliable

I also had similar arguments against power steering, ABS brakes, Air conditioning, Electronic ignition and Fuel Injection.

I wouldn't even consider a vehicle without these features now.  Now I know rally car drivers probably still do without the above features but the rest of us have adopted them either because we recognize the advantages of them or to avoid them would actually take quite a lot of effort.

My prediction is that if EUC's become mainstream as a commute device then suspension will be the norm.  Feel free to tell me I'm wrong in 40 years :-)

 

Too funny. I fall into the rally car driver scenario, but with a 1992 toyota camry. I dont mind efi as I grew up with it, but not so much on my bikes. It IS getting hard to find a car that doesnt have power locks, power windows, power seats,cruise control  gps, distracting consoles, distracting mirror lights, throttle by wire, tracking, auto tranny and abs brakes. I hate renting cars, as some vehicles have the audacity to try and tell me what to do and can overtake a driving decision of mine.

I do get your point tho. The masses control the market, and I wouldnt doubt that suspension eucs will become the goto mainstream choice. Of course maybe not, as most skateboards and bmx bikes still don't. Who knows, but its gna be fun to see either way. I honestly hope I'm not around in 40 yrs to tell you if you're wrong or not. Arent we promised actual hoverboards and jet packs by then? Teleportation doncha think?  I mean hell, jet packs are already here, they are just kinda sketchy. You know, Gotway sketchy...

Edited August 4, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[The Fat Unicyclist]

6 hours ago, Lex Smith said:

My prediction is that if EUC's become mainstream as a commute device then suspension will be the norm.  Feel free to tell me I'm wrong in 40 years :-)

I've made a diary note to remind you of this in August 2061...

[Circuitmage]

@The Fat UnicyclistHe said "...if EUC's become mainstream..." so he has an out. I don't believe EUC's will ever become mainstream...like para gliding, hang gliding, regular unicycle riding....we are doomed to stay on the fringe....just where I like it.

As for the argument FOR suspension....points taken. I concede I do not have suspension and have not tried it, so I don't feel the need for it. If it aint broken....

[winterwheel]

None of those applications have practical application to daily life. Para gliding and hang gliding are not feasible commuting options for example, and would not be options for taking a quick run to the store. Not relevant comparisons at all. EUC will become mainstream because wheels have practical applications in daily life; it's just a matter of how long it takes to get there.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Circuitmage said:

@The Fat UnicyclistHe said "...if EUC's become mainstream..." so he has an out. I don't believe EUC's will ever become mainstream...like para gliding, hang gliding, regular unicycle riding....we are doomed to stay on the fringe....just where I like it.

As for the argument FOR suspension....points taken. I concede I do not have suspension and have not tried it, so I don't feel the need for it. If it aint broken....

Do not try it for the love...

It will hex and bind you and you will forever crave it. 

It made me buy 2 not just 1 V11. Just saying. 

[mike_bike_kite]

  

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’d love to see the mileage that every commenter has ridden with a properly working and set up suspension EUC.

Those that want suspension will obviously have suspension wheels and will therefore have all the mileage on these type of wheels. I'm very unlikely to get a suspension wheel because of the points I raised earlier (complexity, fragility, less range for the cost of the wheel) but that doesn't make my points any less valid. If the roads where I live all start to fall apart or my knees go bad then, sure, I'll start looking closer at suspension wheels.

14 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I have an S-18 and EX, I also have l lots of non-suspension wheels of which the RS-HT is the only one I ride regularly.

Just curious, but why did you buy the EX when hollow motor bearings are known for failing in the wet? It's just that I'd expect it to be wet living in Edmonton and that makes an expensive wheel like the EX quite a risk. 

8 hours ago, Lex Smith said:

I could driver faster and more economically with a manual
Automatics were more expensive
Automatics were more complex to repair and maintain
Automatics were more unreliable

Economy wise the S18 does 30 miles to the direct equivalent 18L's 40+ miles. It's also 30% more expensive than the 18L. And 5kg heavier. All suspension wheels are more difficult to maintain judging by all the disassembly videos. When the V11 was introduced there were about 5 wheels being tested by youtubers, I remember seeing 4 failures whether it was the bearings or just panels cracking. It was a similar story with the S18 with either the suspension jamming or panels cracking. Finding examples of an 18L or 18XL or Nikola or Nikola+ failing is actually quite difficult so, yes, I'd say suspension wheels are also more unreliable. I'll admit I haven't seen any failures on the EX but then I guess not many have been sold (the price and weight probably put people off).

[Unventor]

7 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Economy wise the S18 does 30 miles to the direct equivalent 18L's 40+ miles. It's also 30% more expensive than the 18L. And 5kg heavier. All suspension wheels are more difficult to maintain judging by all the disassembly videos. When the V11 was introduced there were about 5 wheels being tested by youtubers, I remember seeing 4 failures whether it was the bearings or just panels cracking. It was a similar story with the S18 with either the suspension jamming or panels cracking. Finding examples of an 18L or 18XL or Nikola or Nikola+ failing is actually quite difficult so, yes, I'd say suspension wheels are also more unreliable. I'll admit I haven't seen any failures on the EX but then I guess not many have been sold (the price and weight probably put people off).

There will always be failures. But you will not always hear of it. 

As of the economy you will find many ways to argue for or against. Obviously I am one of those that like to have suspension like I have in my car. 

It is very easy to take a point when you have not ridden a wheel yet. But once you interlink with a wheel that is when you truly can start to make comments that is not just based on expectations and speculation. 

One thing is the initial cost of a wheel. Another us the following running cost and then the risk of hidden cost. Depending where you live that hidden part can be different. In Scandinavian I have free (more or less) health care. I have had incidents that on a non-suspension wheel I would had serious injuries. Despite free health care it does not come loss on income or long term impact of an injury. I bet no matter where you live this cost has a risk of been much higher than the purchase price of a wheel, any wheel.

Some like the raw feeling of a non suspension car with hard wood chairs. But in the end of the day most prefer comfort. I speculate this too will happen with EUCs. 

I also speculate that higher speeds and massive increase in range is not going to happen as much as we have seen in the past 3 years of development. And that development is partly questionable. The GW/Begode trick have been just to slap more cells in the shell. But there is a limit to that too. Due to cost, space and availablity. Until we have a change in power source I doubt we will see a 50% range increase for near feature. 

I just had a faulty control board replacement. My V11 died without warning at a 25-30kmh speed. Now the force I felt hitting the ground was hard but in full lvl2 MC suit 3D0 pads I managed. But if you were to have this at 100kmh / 60mph I doubt that would go down well. Due to this I speculate too that top speed increases are not going to be massive. And even if they were I am not tapping into that. 

So summing-up this I would draw the conclusion that suspension will be the next natural thing for EUCs. Initially yes more complex and at some expense of range and price. 

The simple wheels will be a thing of the past. Especially if you want to ride faster. Once you have tested a suspension wheel you will very soon realize this. It is a natural evolution. 

[OldFartRides]

Sorry ‘bout your fall.

[winterwheel]

38 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Just curious, but why did you buy the EX when hollow motor bearings are known for failing in the wet? It's just that I'd expect it to be wet living in Edmonton and that makes an expensive wheel like the EX quite a risk. 

Winter aside Edmonton isn't particularly wet. In any event...EX's were ordered the instant they became available, before hollow motor issues became a thing. I did the bearing replacement thing on my RS (after about a week of hardcore winter riding), very educational. Not planning to ride the EX in winter, I don't think suspension and winter mix due to the higher pedals. I might try and get my hands on a V12, it looks like it might be a good winter wheel.

[mrelwood]

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm very unlikely to get a suspension wheel because of the points I raised earlier (complexity, fragility, less range for the cost of the wheel) but that doesn't make my points any less valid.

Most of your points are easily refuted as they don’t concern the suspension, but other features on the only three current suspension wheels. It’s a bit like saying that all black EUCs are faster because all Begodes are black.

 If you would list these as reasons not to buy any of the three first gen suspension wheels, you would have a bit more meat in your comments. But listing those as reasons why suspension wouldn’t be a worthy feature in itself is dropping the ball.

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

If the roads where I live all start to fall apart or my knees go bad then, sure, I'll start looking closer at suspension wheels.

Many of us said similar things about riding an EUC before we ever tried it. I also could’ve never imagined how much any of my wheel upgrades would transform the frequency, distance, and the ways I use my EUC.

Did the lack of experience make my opinions on EUCs less valid back then? Of course it did. And less relevant.

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Economy wise the S18 does 30 miles to the direct equivalent 18L's 40+ miles.

They are not direct equivalents. Closest one yes, but not direct. And I’d assume you to know enough about EUCs not to compare anything but a single rider’s range figures. Whose were the ones you mentioned?

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's also 30% more expensive than the 18L.

You are comparing the price of a something like 4 year old single product to one of the most recent ones. I paid less for my V11 than I did for the 84V MSX. And the S18 is much cheaper than the Sherman, so you’re wrong, suspension wheels are cheaper.

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

And 5kg heavier.

The V11 is built way more sturdy, yet it only weighs 2.5kg more than the thin-shelled 84V MSX. So, suspension doesn’t add any weight.

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

When the V11 was introduced there were about 5 wheels being tested by youtubers, I remember seeing 4 failures whether it was the bearings or just panels cracking.

Neither of which have anything to do with the suspension. And which demo unit hasn’t gotten issues? Some of them are purposefully broken, as we’ve seen on the Sherman and the V12.

44 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Finding examples of an 18L or 18XL or Nikola or Nikola+ failing is actually quite difficult so, yes, I'd say suspension wheels are also more unreliable.

If you had actually tried the suspension wheels, your arguments would probably be much more valid because they would be about the actual experience and more relevant data, and not comparing some random models that have been improved a lot during several years… you know, because they had issues.

 The 16X is too easily overleaned at 85% of the advertised speed. The V11 and the EX are not. Suspension wheels are faster and more powerful.

 

In case it was not obvious enough, none of my above conclusions are true, as they aren’t based on relevant facts.

[RockyTop]

I would say that we could fix this problem by putting a V11 saddle on a Sherman.  ......... However someone would chime in and say that any wheel heavier than the MTen3 is completely useless. .... And they might be right for their purposes. 

[Unventor]

Just now, RockyTop said:

I would say that we could fix this problem by putting a V11 saddle on a Sherman.  ......... However someone would chime in and say that any wheel heavier than the MTen3 is completely useless. .... And they might be right for their purposes. 

The real questions though...

Can you play Crysis 2 on it?

(Old pc joke as it only matters if you could play games on it)

And does it fit a Black Crow stand?

(You know why this matters). 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

3 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I would say that we could fix this problem by putting a V11 saddle on a Sherman.  ......... However someone would chime in and say that any wheel heavier than the MTen3 is completely useless. .... And they might be right for their purposes. 

So what you're saying is that we need a 3200 Wh Mten3, with suspension...

I'm good with that!   

[winterwheel]

31 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

So what you're saying is that we need a 3200 Wh Mten3, with suspension...

I'm good with that!   

Maybe we could add a knobby tire while we're at it.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

15 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

Maybe we could add a knobby tire while we're at it.

So... A 3200 Wh Mten3, with suspension, a knobbly tyre, a trolley handle and a seat. 

Are you listening @Begode?

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Most of your points are easily refuted as they don’t concern the suspension

My points concern current suspension wheels and not the general concept of suspension. My cars and motorbikes all have suspension and I'm happy it's there. All the current suspension EUCs seem compromised for the reasons I, and others, have listed.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

They are not direct equivalents. Closest one yes, but not direct. And I’d assume you to know enough about EUCs not to compare anything but a single rider’s range figures. Whose were the ones you mentioned?

They are the closest equivalents I could think of. It's approximately the same tyre, with approximately the same battery and produced by the same company. In fact the S18 seems to have taken over from the 18L as I understand the 18L is no longer produced. The figures I used were Duf's where he tested each wheel on the same route. I think his V11 actually died on him after a ride in the rain. E-rides also produce similar real range figures and I assume they test with the same rider.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

You are comparing the price of a something like 4 year old single product to one of the most recent ones. I paid less for my V11 than I did for the 84V MSX. And the S18 is much cheaper than the Sherman, so you’re wrong, suspension wheels are cheaper.

...

The V11 is built way more sturdy, yet it only weighs 2.5kg more than the thin-shelled 84V MSX. So, suspension doesn’t add any weight.

I'm comparing 2 equivalent wheels that are still on sale. If the new S18 offers only 2/3 of the range of it's 4 year old predecessor then surely that's a compromise introduced by having the suspension? It's 5kg heavier than the old wheel too - that extra weight presumably comes from adding the suspension. The MSX has a much larger battery, a much larger wheel and also offers more speed so that's not a great comparison.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

And which demo unit hasn’t gotten issues? Some of them are purposefully broken, as we’ve seen on the Sherman and the V12.

Pretty much all the V11 demo wheels had issues, usually from just riding in the rain but occasionally from drops or crashes. I found it quite hard to find any issues (demo or otherwise) on the 18L, 18XL, Nikola or Nikola Plus. Call me crazy but I want a wheel that will work after a ride in the rain or after a crash.

3 hours ago, Unventor said:

My V11 died without warning at a 25-30kmh speed. Now the force I felt hitting the ground was hard but in full lvl2 MC suit 3D0 pads I managed. But if you were to have this at 100kmh / 60mph I doubt that would go down well. Due to this I speculate too that top speed increases are not going to be massive. And even if they were I am not tapping into that. 

Sorry to hear about your crash and I'm glad to hear you're OK. I agree that it's silly to produce even faster wheels - it just leads to accidents and that leads to legislature.

2 hours ago, winterwheel said:

Winter aside Edmonton isn't particularly wet. In any event...EX's were ordered the instant they became available, before hollow motor issues became a thing. I did the bearing replacement thing on my RS (after about a week of hardcore winter riding), very educational. Not planning to ride the EX in winter, I don't think suspension and winter mix due to the higher pedals. I might try and get my hands on a V12, it looks like it might be a good winter wheel.

I  understand your reasoning but hopefully you'll admit the wheel is just a little compromised if you can't ride it when it's raining. The V12 does look like a better bet for winter riding.

[MexicanBatman]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The V11 is built way more sturdy, yet it only weighs 2.5kg more than the thin-shelled 84V MSX. So, suspension doesn’t add any weight.

You weighed yours?

 

cos mine weighs 29kg

 

my MSX was 23.5kg

 

my S18 is 25kg

 

and my Sherman is 37.5kg

 

 

[The Fat Unicyclist]

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

In fact the S18 seems to have taken over from the 18L as I understand the 18L is no longer produced.

Without getting into a discussion about everything you said, this one point is incorrect. 

The 18L and 18XL are most definitely still being produced, and is still very much in demand. 

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Without getting into a discussion about everything you said, this one point is incorrect. 

The 18L and 18XL are most definitely still being produced, and is still very much in demand. 

To add to this, the 18L and 18XL are one of the smoothest out of box 18 inch experiences and is often the one we reach for when teaching people to ride.

[conecones]

There will always be a market both and suspension designs may even further divide into street and off-road types.

High speed road use - street tuned suspension. Ex. Motorcycle.

General trail use - off-road suspension. Ex. Full suspension E-MTB.

Specialty trail/trick use - no suspension. Ex. BMX 

[Menace]

6 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I found it quite hard to find any issues (demo or otherwise) on the 18L, 18XL, Nikola or Nikola Plus

Well, there was the "gotway glue guy" and his hot glue gun . For anyone who hasn't heard it before: lots of early Nikolas had hot glue on the mosfets, presumably to make assembling the boards easier, and it caused lots of boards to burn up.

I'm currently in the no suspension boat, I like to feel connected to the wheel and know exactly what is happening with the wheel, motor, and road. I get that some may love it, but it's not for me. I actually think they are all really cool, but I wouldn't really buy any of them. Base specs are more important to me and if a well executed suspension could be added to that, that would be awesome, but if it isn't perfect it will ruin the connection to the motor/wheel and I'm not interested.

 I think it is hard to argue that there are no tradeoffs as of right now. S18 has a small battery leading to easy overpower and low range, V11 has a hollow motor and relatively fragile saddle, EX was just kind of a flop (for several reasons).  I am certain that a great suspension wheel can and will be made, but so far all of them have tradeoffs that stem from the addition of suspension.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Menace