Value of EUC Suspension?

[tommypriest]

I have watched many reviews of Inmotion V12, yet I've not seen anyone make a comment regarding the lack of suspension on the wheel.  It's as if suspension was never a "thing" to begin with.  Last year it was all the rage.  This year, not a peep.  My question is, did suspension really add significant value to the experience?  Or did it just make repairing flats all the more difficult?  For me, repairing a flat IS A "THING."    

[AtlasP]

The V12 was not (at least originally) a pure 'successor' to the V11. Rather the V11 (IM's first suspension wheel) and the V12 (IM's first 100v wheel) were being developed in tandem/independent of one another, without IM knowing if either would become product viable. Ultimately it turned out the development of both were successful and both are coming to market.

Basically the V11 and V12 were two possible alternate futures from IM (either they focus on suspension sticking with 84v speeds, or they focus on 100v speeds irrelevant of suspension), and we just happen to be getting both futures on top of one another (albeit in different models). In which case it could be the V-number-bigger-than-12 that might unite and provide both suspension and 100v speeds.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

My opinion is that the benefit of suspension depends on the rider, or more specifically where the rider rides. 

My riding is mainly on-road, with a small amount of "gentle" off-roading. I think that perhaps 5% of my riding benefits from having suspension, but the rest of the time it doesn't add too much value. So for me, I would spend the extra $$$ on cells rather than suspension. But that is just for me. 

Other "riding profiles" could definitely utilise suspension to a greater extent, but.

[Circuitmage]

There was some talk about it possibly alleviating knee issues, which makes sense to me. On a bicycle , or even to a less extent on a motorcycle, you are not putting constant pressure on the pedals, whereas on an EUC you are putting your whole weight on it, constantly. 

After a few years of riding my EUC daily (and not that many miles mind you, just a few a day, maybe 50 miles a week), I do know sometimes I get foot discomfort (if my feet are not placed well), I get fairly frequent calf muscle tightening (that is easily relaxed/worked out), and minimal knee issues. 

I won't say my knee issues are 0, but is very hard to blame the EUC. Maybe in 10 years it will catch up to me, as I have noticed mild discomfort now that I have started running again. But again, it is very mild...and my knees are old anyway.

Keep in mind I am a street rider, not going over many bumps. But with the combination of flexing the legs, and already being on an air-cushioned tube...I don't think a wheel with extra suspension is that big of deal.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Circuitmage

[Lex Smith]

As a new rider (less than a 1000 km) I believe suspension has saved me a couple of falls when I have been caught out by unseen potholes or large bumps in the road which the suspension ate up.

[Skecys]

I believe what @Lex Smith says to be true, suspension equals a safer ride. The thing is, in my experience, suspension wheels need a lot more maintenance. The shock on my S18 needs regular topping off which takes quite a lot of effort with the supplied pump. To me a EUC is something u grab and go, I don't want to have to service it every two weeks for it to perform. I have since fallen back onto my 16X and haven't looked back, I will probably sell my S18 soon. I don't miss the suspension with regular city riding. 

[LanghamP]

11 hours ago, Skecys said:

I believe what @Lex Smith says to be true, suspension equals a safer ride. The thing is, in my experience, suspension wheels need a lot more maintenance. The shock on my S18 needs regular topping off which takes quite a lot of effort with the supplied pump. To me a EUC is something u grab and go, I don't want to have to service it every two weeks for it to perform. I have since fallen back onto my 16X and haven't looked back, I will probably sell my S18 soon. I don't miss the suspension with regular city riding. 

Using what is essentially a mountain bike rear air suspension comes with a few drawbacks as well as significant advantages. One could just use a spring suspension but springs aren't appropriate most of the time for most riders, whereas air can be adjusted to each rider's weight.

Some years back in the late 80's to mid 1990's, motorcycles often had a flippable rear suspension whereby you and an 800 pound gorilla could pull the suspension to its full travel, then flip it for heavier loads, all without tools! The weight of a 200 pound man sitting on the front wheel of a bike on its center stand exceeded the force required to flip said spring...

[wheelyboy]

There's an area near where I ride where the road is full of bumps and cracks and potholes, and yeah. Suspension makes a huge difference there. I can ride higher speeds and feel a lot safer. On other roads where it's smooth and well maintained, I think it's better to be lower to the ground. So the height of the v11 is really to its detriment there.

The V11 has also been described as an off road wheel. But personally, I think the MSX is better for that. There's a lot more control feeling the tire on the ground without the added air buffer between.

I'm still new on the V11 but my impression is that suspension will always be just a feature and not a universal improvement that people thought it might be. Kind of like how larger 18,19 inch wheels are not necessarily better than 16 inch wheels.

Ultimately the market will decide what is the most desirable features in a wheel. But I think there will always be a place for both suspension and non suspension wheels, depending on your riding style and terrain. If you make the comparison to bikes, typically road bikes will not have suspension. And I think it's kind of similar here.

[Rawnei]

Suspension would add a lot of value if there aren't too many other compromises (weight, range, technical issues), I'm sure future suspension models will become very popular, current models are not bad but they all have compromises in various ways. If the S18 was a 100V wheel with more battery and speed it would probably be a very popular wheel.

And as @AtlasP already said V12 is not a successor to V11 it's just a new model from Inmotion.

1 hour ago, wheelyboy said:

The V11 has also been described as an off road wheel. But personally, I think the MSX is better for that. There's a lot more control feeling the tire on the ground without the added air buffer between.

Biggest issue with V11 is the low outer shell which is easily bumped/cracked on obstacles (such as a high curb).

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Rawnei

[OldFartRides]

Suspension is much appreciated by my knees.

 

edit: I’m wore out LONG before my batteries give out.

Edited August 3, 2021 by OldFartRides

[mike_bike_kite]

I guess, for those that need it, it's a god send. For the rest of us it just adds to the weight, complexity and price of the wheel.

[Heyzeus]

23 hours ago, AtlasP said:

In which case it could be the V-number-bigger-than-12 that might unite and provide both suspension and 100v speeds.

A v13 with both the performance of the v12 and the suspension of the v11 might be something that finally gets me to upgrade.  Or a refined s18(s20) that has the performance of a v12 or better and a refined more reliable/durable version of the s18's suspension system.

It will probably be awhile for me though, every year something cooler comes out and I always buy things on a lag to make sure the kinks are worked out.  

[AtlasP]

5 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Suspension would add a lot of value if there aren't too many other compromises (weight, range, technical issues), I'm sure future suspension models will become very popular, current models are not bad but they all have compromises in various ways.

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I guess, for those that need it, it's a god send. For the rest of us it just adds to the weight, complexity and price of the wheel.

Everyone keeps parroting these tropes about suspension which have been proven false:

• "suspension adds so much extra weight" -- The 18XL is basically the closest to the V11 without suspension, similarly tall & svelte form-factors, 84v speeds, within ~50 Wh/essentially the exact same Wh, and the V11 adds a wider 3" tire (instead of 2.5") and distinctly more powerful motor, and ultimately the two are within just 2 kg of one another. It's all motors and batteries that really matter towards weight, everything else is insignificant by comparison, and is just as easily offset by small differences in casing, pedal hangers, lights, handles, etc.
• "suspension means less range" (presumably because the suspension supposedly takes up so much extra space) -- There is zero reason a larger-battery model using the V11's-style suspension couldn't be built considering the tiny volume used for the suspension rails with everything contained therein. Hell you could strap extra battery packs to either side of the V11 and it'd still be narrower than a lot of larger wheels.
• "suspension adds too much complexity/technical issues" -- Virtually all of the issues with the V11 have been with some combination of its hollow-bore motor (the vast majority of them, and which were equally prevalent with the non-suspension wheels released with hollow-bore motors) and a few more isolated issues with boards (but then again it seems all EUCs these days have a percentage of ootb board failures). Maybe one or two people had a bad/faulty shock ootb that needed replaced? There was the issue with the saddle bolt area cracking which didn't affect functionality/was mostly cosmetic and could be easily fixed in a subsequent design. And some people reported some clicking in the rails that was resolved with proper lubricant. Have there been *ANY* other reported failures/anything that had anything to do with its suspension specifically? Certainly nothing noteworthy/significant and certainly not resulting in any crashes or catastrophic failures or we would've heard all about it. How many Begode wheels have caught fire in that time? How many Shermans had rim issues in that time? How many hollow-bore motors had issues within that time (irrelevant of having suspension or not)? Suspension 'complexity' is an invented boogeyman compared to real issues.
• "suspension adds so much extra cost" -- The V11 launched and remains price competitive with other non-suspension wheels with similar specs (including the 18XL and 16X), and that's excluding some of its standout features such as headlight, taillight, kickstand, etc.

Ultimately the ONLY 'complaint' that pertains to suspension and has any merit is the fact that it does require increased maintenance to top up the shock every so often--which needs done every month or two, which is how often you should be checking your tire pressure anyway, albeit with current designs topping up the shock does unfortunately require removing a couple screws. But that's pretty much it.

I can't wait until the proverbial V13 and a marriage between the 100v speeds & batteries of the V12 with the suspension from the V11, and watch everybody change their tune.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by AtlasP

[AtlasP]

[ignore]

Edited August 11, 2021 by AtlasP

[GothamMike]

How much battery life does suspension typically sacrifice, given the same amount of weight? I'm guessing about 30-40%

[Rawnei]

43 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Everyone keeps parroting these tropes about suspension which have been proven false:

 

I think you misunderstand, it's not a trope each of the 3 current suspension wheels have some sort of compromise, limitation or design flaw, those things are not dependant on or mutual exclusive to having suspension or not.

The EX comes closes to what I would want from a suspension wheel if it wasn't for the very heavy weight.

[AtlasP]

5 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

How much battery life does suspension typically sacrifice, given the same amount of weight? I'm guessing about 30-40%

It doesn't really work that way, EUC battery capacity is based around cell size and number of packs--so a wheel either fits 18650's or 21700's, in a few discrete packs of cells. Even removing the suspension from the V11's current design you couldn't suddenly fit another pack or two in. And conversely you could redesign its shell to fit another couple packs in even with/retaining its suspension.

The closest comparison as referenced is the 18XL which has ~50Wh more battery and weighs ~2kg less. Which is you adjust for both battery capacity and weight difference is like 5%.

[AtlasP]

38 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I think you misunderstand, it's not a trope each of the 3 current suspension wheels have some sort of compromise, limitation or design flaw, those things are not dependant on or mutual exclusive to having suspension or not.

The EX comes closes to what I would want from a suspension wheel if it wasn't for the very heavy weight.

Some might say this is just semantics, but I think there's an important and fundamental difference to be made between saying "suspension involves these compromises/issues" and "the current suspension offerings involve these compromises/issues".

The former attempts to correlate that suspension as a concept/technology is the source of the compromises/issues, which is demonstrably false.

--

But we can go even further, as the four specific tropes I referenced are still false even regarding at least one of the suspension offerings currently available--namely the V11 isn't significantly heavier than other wheels of its similar specs, it doesn't have significantly less battery than other wheels of similar specs, it doesn't add significant complexity or technical issues as a result of its suspension specifically, and it is not more expensive than other wheels of similar specs. All four of those tropes are false right now.

The bottom line is simply that something like the V11 is in a different product category than you may want (it's not a 100v wheel, it doesn't have a 2+kwh battery, etc), which is absolutely fine but has absolutely nothing to do with suspension. Or inverted, your reasons for dismissing the V11 are identical to your reasons for dismissing an 18XL or 16X which are in the same category as the V11, yet which do not have suspension at all. You might as well dismiss the V11 for it's "18XL-ness" or "16X-ness", which as silly as it sounds is still less silly and makes much more sense than saying suspension is the culprit.

(Regarding the EX specifically, unfortunately that wheel is just bad coupled with a bad suspension. Having suspension doesn't make it bad; but having a bad suspension certainly makes it worse.)

Edited August 3, 2021 by AtlasP

[RockyTop]

I have not tried the EX so I can’t speak about it. The S18 and V11 are pretty awesome in their own way. Yet they are too weak for me. I have to be careful not to overpower them or they will cut out. The S18 batteries sag quickly and the V11 is quick to burn up. I am a heavy rider (not fat) that likes to force the wheel around. (When I ride dirt bikes I spend more time in the air than on the ground) As a result, when I am on the S18 or V11 I have to take it easy. I get tired of taking it easy. Otherwise I would stick with the S18. I have moved back to the MSX and Sherman. 
MORE POWER. ARR ARR ARR 

The S18 is still fun to ride around at work. I am not getting rid of it. 

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, AtlasP said:

The bottom line is simply that something like the V11 is in a different product category than you may want (it's not a 100v wheel, it doesn't have a 2+kwh battery, etc), which has absolutely nothing to do with its suspension. Therefore your criticism should be directed at the reasons that exclude it from the category of product you want, which have nothing to do with its suspension.

Which is exactly what I am saying, I've owned a V11 and was disappointed in that it's not really a 55kmh wheel as advertised and that the outer shell is so low that it hits and even can crack from things such as a curb. Maybe my initial post wasn't clear what I meant but why would I critique suspension as a concept based on how much it weight or impact on batteries or speed? Specially when I also say that future models might be interesting. That makes no sense.

[mike_bike_kite]

36 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Everyone keeps parroting these tropes about suspension which have been proven false:

Complexity: S18 has had various issues with suspension from replacing bits that don't work - there are many long threads on here. The V11 is fragile, simple crashes crack the saddle while more entertaining crashes, like Hsiang's, leave you with a jigsaw puzzle. When the V11 was being introduced they gave wheels to a number of reviewers, I seem to remember 4 of the 5 youtubers had issues with the wheel. There haven't been many reports of EX's failing yet but that's probably because relatively few have been sold but those 1200 psi shocks look like a nightmare to maintain and those hollow motor bearings are notorious for failing. Doing any work on all of these wheels, like just replacing a tyre, looks difficult on all these wheels.

Weight and range: The S18 and V11 both weigh around 27kg and both offer a 40 miles range. Your Nikola Plus also weighs 27kg but gives 50 miles. The 84v Nikola 2100Wh weighs 26kg and gives nearly 70 miles. The 18XL you mention, weighs 2kg less than the V11 but offers 20 miles more range.

Price: To be honest, all these wheels are outside my price range which is why I bought the Nikola Plus (I got a discount). The EX is way beyond what I want to pay for an EUC. I'm not saying people shouldn't spend what they want on their hobby but it's more than I can justify.

I accept that I'm just pointing out issues with (all) existing suspension wheels rather than issues with the "concept" of suspension wheels but I think it's quite a valid position to take.

[UniVehje]

On the roads I ride now, suspension is essential. Also on my long journeys it makes it more comfortable. On my daily rides here in the countryside, the roads are mainly gravel and very bumpy. If you want to go fast here you need suspension, not 100 volts. 

[mrelwood]

I don’t think there is a single 100 metre strip of road in all capital area of Finland where a suspension wouldn’t offer any benefits. I’m pretty sure the situation is the same all over the world. Even if I would never let my tire touch anything but pavement, I would absolutely require suspension. Just like I do from a car, even if I only drive on a consistently maintained infrastructure created just for them.

As for range, I get roughly 100% farther with the V11 than I did with the MSX for the same level of exhaustion.

As for price, I paid less for my V11 than I paid for my 84V MSX back in the day.

 Whenever a discussion like this emerges, I’d love to see the mileage that every commenter has ridden with a properly working and set up suspension EUC. It is generally pretty easy to guess based on the comments, but it would be fun to be able to confirm my suspicions…

I knew from day zero that I desperately needed a suspension wheel. And I still wasn’t able to imagine the level of impact it made to my riding. After two weeks I noticed that I’m a much safer rider already because I didn’t have to scan the roads anywhere near as constantly that I did with the MSX.

 I’m sure that given a little time, suspension wheels will far dominate the markets, no matter what the riders without suspension experience think.

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 Whenever a discussion like this emerges, I’d love to see the mileage that every commenter has ridden with a properly working and set up suspension EUC. It is generally pretty easy to guess based on the comments, but it would be fun to be able to confirm my suspicions…

Really!!  .... I ride at least 500 miles every day. .... LOL.  ....  You have a good point.  I don’t get the mileage. People use these contraptions for very different purposes. For me it is about 70% recreational. That is when I want the speed and power. 30% short distance trips back and forth carrying tools and equipment. I am sure that you often ride more in one day that I do in an average week. 

[winterwheel]

I have an S-18 and EX, I also have l lots of non-suspension wheels of which the RS-HT is the only one I ride regularly.

I like the S-18 okay, I'd like it a lot more if I trusted to carry my heavy behind around the way I ride, which is pulling away hard a lot of the time and cruising around 50kmh. I mainly use it in demo situations and as a rental wheel.

I luvs, luvs, LUVSs the EX. So much that I have a second one, sitting in a box, waiting for a possible future where my first one breaks down for some reason that can't be immediately resolved. 

The suspension is a big reason for that. (Range and speed also factors of course.) All I have to do is take the RS out on one of my morning coffee rides to remember what the suspension is doing for me; it is a teeth rattling experience now because I'm used to have the EX take all the little bumps out of the road for me and perhaps I've gotten a bit lazy. It's the first wheel I trust to jump off curbs, and I lend it to members of the crew here whenever they want to jump off something higher than they trust to do with their own, non-suspension wheels. 

It's excellent in the forest too, on single track MB trails. It smooths out the roughest stuff just as you would expect from a suspension wheel. It's awesome to be able to ride at speed through rough zones where the non-suspension wheels have to slow down to pick their way through.

I don't have a V11 but several guys here do, and they seem to like those as much as I do the EX.

The only caveat about suspension is that the pedals are of course higher than a normal wheel. Hence the RS; when I need a low-riding wheel with lots of torque (which I do often) I take the RS out instead.