Value of EUC Suspension?

[winterwheel]

19 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I  understand your reasoning but hopefully you'll admit the wheel is just a little compromised if you can't ride it when it's raining. The V12 does look like a better bet for winter riding.

I have no plans to avoid riding my EX when it is raining.

[winterwheel]

12 hours ago, Menace said:

I am certain that a great suspension wheel can and will be made, but so far all of them have tradeoffs that stem from the addition of suspension.

None of the trade-offs you mentioned had anything to do with the addition of suspension.

The EX isn't a flop.

I feel the road/surface just fine with my suspension wheels, bumps are not eliminated they are just dampened.

As has been said (several times?) above, applying these criticisms to suspension wheels is only done by people who don't ride one regularly.

[mike_bike_kite]

4 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

None of the trade-offs you mentioned had anything to do with the addition of suspension.

Adding the suspension adds to the weight of the wheel or you have to use smaller batteries. The suspension components will either add to the price of the wheel or they'll have to use cheaper components elsewhere. Allowing for internal movement of the wheel on the S18 means that space can't be used for batteries. The suspension components provide vulnerable weak spots like the valves on the EX under the pedals or the saddle on the V11. Suspension also requires higher pedal height. These are all trade offs.

[Menace]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

None of the trade-offs you mentioned had anything to do with the addition of suspension.

What are you talking about? S18 has a small battery because the suspension system takes up space and weight. V11 has a hollow motor at least in part because of the suspension and the saddle is part of the suspension system. EX has a hollow motor, the suspension is poorly executed (many reviews say so), is expensive, and you don't see many of them (that speaks for itself) . You also simply can't argue that the suspension doesn't add weight, complexity, maintenance, and price. I am not saying that they are bad wheels, but there are trade offs and you can't just deny that.

I'm sure the EX is a fun wheel, but not many people are buying it, which is why I called it a flop.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Menace

[Heyzeus]

On 8/4/2021 at 12:40 AM, Tryptych said:

Usually the people you find arguing against suspension are the people who don't own a suspension wheel and haven't fully experienced it.

As someone who owns both types of types I can tell you with authority: 

Suspension is the real deal and every wheel should have it. It makes your ride so much more comfortable and so much safer. There are absolutely zero drawbacks to having suspension.

Not having suspension makes about as much sense as not having suspension on your car, your motorcycle, your truck, your train etc etc you get my point.

Suspension is simply better.

 

 

Yeah, haven't ridden a suspension wheel and I can still tell it's the future and most wheels 16in and larger will eventually go this way.  The only reason it's a discussion is because it's still in the early stages. The reasons people cite for not having a suspension wheel (weight/battery/maintenance/complexity) will all be addressed more and more in time as the suspension wheels are refined and improved.

If the maintenance and reliability issues on the s18 weren't a thing and it had a 1800wh battery and only weighed 50lbs and was IP rated with a top speed of at least 45mph, well, I think that would satisfy most users to not consider a non suspended wheel unless one was significantly faster.  Hopefully we will get this with the v13.

But eventually I see 90+% over a certain price point being suspended.

 

[Circuitmage]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:16 AM, winterwheel said:

None of those applications have practical application to daily life. Para gliding and hang gliding are not feasible commuting options for example, and would not be options for taking a quick run to the store. Not relevant comparisons at all. EUC will become mainstream because wheels have practical applications in daily life; it's just a matter of how long it takes to get there.

Well, as long as people are still faceplanting on their EUC's every week.....I won't hold my breath until it becomes mainstream. I think the comparison is still apt as it is risk based form of transportation. And, as long as we are competing with 5,000 lb vehicles on the road, we will always be out matched. I don't see any infrastructure in the works to give us right-of-way. I believe it's more likely we will be banned as there is no incentive to allow us to keep riding. We don't pay for fuel (which is heavily taxed), we don't pay registration fees....governments don't like people that Tinkle outside the Binkle.

[mrelwood]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

My points concern current suspension wheels and not the general concept of suspension.

That does make sense. I wasn’t able to read your posts that way though.

 

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm comparing 2 equivalent wheels that are still on sale.

By all means. Just don’t think that suspension is the only cause of the differences between the wheels.

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

If the new S18 offers only 2/3 of the range of it's 4 year old predecessor then surely that's a compromise introduced by having the suspension?

There’s no logic to this claim. Inmotion’s suspension wheel still has about 1.5 times the battery of their largest non-suspension wheel. Obviously this was not caused by the addition of suspension. And what was the EX battery size again?

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

It's 5kg heavier than the old wheel too - that extra weight presumably comes from adding the suspension.

The S18 has large metal containers for its battery, and a very different and much larger main board assembly. Again, the suspension is not the only difference, so you can’t blame all differences in the specs on the suspension.
 

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

Pretty much all the V11 demo wheels had issues

And that is the sole reason the manufacturers send out demo wheels in the first place. They are not able to do thorough enough testing in house, so they need help in finding out the weak spots and other things that can be improved.

 All the issues in the V11 demo units were improved within a few months. Just like the Nikola glue gun incident, MSX rodeo firmware incident, and the smaller improvements KS has done to both 18L and 18XL. For example silencing the horrible whine they used to have with the older firmwares.

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

Call me crazy but I want a wheel that will work after a ride in the rain or after a crash.

Then don’t buy a pre-production demo unit.

On 8/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, mike_bike_kite said:

hopefully you'll admit the wheel is just a little compromised if you can't ride it when it's raining.

You seem a bit stuck with this notion. Currently the V11 is produced with better quality Japanese made 6916 bearings, that are covered with a waterproof seal straight from the factory. Even before the seals the 6916 bearings issues seem to have been just a fraction of the older ones, and especially the 1st batch Z-bearings.

 One year in production, several notable changes made, some of them detrimental.

 

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Adding the suspension adds to the weight of the wheel or you have to use smaller batteries.

Adding a suspension system inside the wheel always replaces something solid (with an air canister), so the suspension is never just “added”. Every wheel is either designed with or without suspension. Small increases will surely be common, but not likely 5kg.

Btw, the 18x3.0 tire on the S18 already weighs more than the 18x2.5” on the 18L. The suspension is not the only difference.

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The suspension components will either add to the price of the wheel or they'll have to use cheaper components elsewhere.

Yet the V11 is cheaper than the 18XL in every shop I checked.

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The suspension components provide vulnerable weak spots like the valves on the EX under the pedals or the saddle on the V11.

If suspension components provide weak spots, why don’t they do the same on all suspension wheels? If the suspension causes a weak saddle on the V11 (that has now been improved, twice), why doesn’t it do so on the other suspension wheels?

If only one suspension wheel has a specific trait, isn’t it more logical to conclude that it can’t then be caused by the suspension?

Btw, the saddle on my 1st batch V11 has never caused any issues, and the wheel has been crashed twice at ~25km/h, and countless slow speed tumbles off road.

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Suspension also requires higher pedal height. These are all trade offs.

Actually, the V11 pedal height is one of the most important blessings on the V11! I wouldn’t trade it back to a street hugger even if I was paid to do so. It’s so much more safer and capable. So no, it’s not a trade off. But how could you know?

[winterwheel]

So much to disagree with there. I've got four years and 40,000kms+ in and have yet to "faceplant". Cars are a risk-based form of transportation, 38,000!!! people die *every year* in them, in the US alone. My city is building out bike lanes like crazy, and these are ideal for casual EUC riding. Cities are under a lot of pressure to reduce carbon emissions and EUC are a fantastic way to do that.

[winterwheel]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The suspension components provide vulnerable weak spots like the valves on the EX under the pedals or the saddle on the V11.

I'll say again, I've ridden the EX under all sorts of rough off-road conditions, and no issues whatsoever with the 'vulnerable weak spots like the valves on the EX'.

[Menace]

18 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

So much to disagree with there. I've got four years and 40,000kms+ in and have yet to "faceplant". Cars are a risk-based form of transportation, 38,000!!! people die *every year* in them, in the US alone. My city is building out bike lanes like crazy, and these are ideal for casual EUC riding. Cities are under a lot of pressure to reduce carbon emissions and EUC are a fantastic way to do that.

I have to agree. Every time I crashed was only because I was pushing my limits or the wheels limits. When used as a commuter device it is no riskier than a bike IMO.

Cars are certainly risk based, the difference is how they are seen. People see an EUC and think "wow, that's dangerous". Then they proceed to text, take pictures of said EUC, and scroll through social media all while operating a several ton machine above the speed limit mere feet away from sidewalks with people on them and tailgating the car in front of them. Cars are wayyyy riskier for everyone else on the road. If a car hits a pedestrian at 20mph, the pedestrian could easily be killed. An EUC is far less likely to hit a pedestrian at 20 mph due to maneuverability, and even if they do get hit they are far less likely to get killed. Cars cannot dodge things and get out of accidents because they are too big. With all the modern safeties built into cars they may be safer for the occupants, but that isn't the whole story. 

EUCs aren't going anywhere. They are PEVs, and even if EUC is not very common yet, others (scooters and ebikes) are. It is too late, there are too many of us PEV riders. I think the US will continue to do nothing for a while longer and then registration and insurance may be required for more powerful models. In Europe I can imagine many places cracking down and making silly rules, but over time people will ignore them and the rules will get revised and removed.

[.....]

On 8/4/2021 at 3:08 PM, The Fat Unicyclist said:

So... A 3200 Wh Mten3, with suspension, a knobbly tyre, a trolley handle and a seat. 

Are you listening @Begode?

I'm down with that. Send me one and I'll ride the damn thing!

1 hour ago, Menace said:

I have to agree. Every time I crashed was only because I was pushing my limits or the wheels limits. When used as a commuter device it is no riskier than a bike IMO.

Cars are certainly risk based, the difference is how they are seen. People see an EUC and think "wow, that's dangerous". Then they proceed to text, take pictures of said EUC, and scroll through social media all while operating a several ton machine above the speed limit mere feet away from sidewalks with people on them and tailgating the car in front of them. Cars are wayyyy riskier for everyone else on the road. If a car hits a pedestrian at 20mph, the pedestrian could easily be killed. An EUC is far less likely to hit a pedestrian at 20 mph due to maneuverability, and even if they do get hit they are far less likely to get killed. Cars cannot dodge things and get out of accidents because they are too big. With all the modern safeties built into cars they may be safer for the occupants, but that isn't the whole story. 

EUCs aren't going anywhere. They are PEVs, and even if EUC is not very common yet, others (scooters and ebikes) are. It is too late, there are too many of us PEV riders. I think the US will continue to do nothing for a while longer and then registration and insurance may be required for more powerful models. In Europe I can imagine many places cracking down and making silly rules, but over time people will ignore them and the rules will get revised and removed.

I see your point in most of this. Altho, I cannot agree that EUC is less dangerous or even equal to the danger of commuting on a bicycle. Its been combed thru many times, but I still maintain that the probability of a slight equipment failure on an euc, has more likely negative consequences to the rider, than a bicycle would. Equally skilled and equally responsible riders on an euc and bicycle, would both be 'fairly' safe. However, road irregularities and equipment malfunction would be less catastrophic in two wheels over just one. Braking distances between the two in an emergency an/or on less than prestine road surfaces, would also prove a win for bicycles. I love my euc, but i wont ignore that it does have inherent risk above that of a motorcycle or bicycle.

WAY too many factors to evaluate in the argument of cars vs euc safety. Are we talking danger to the driver or everyone else? What speeds are we talking? What road conditions or if even roads? How much traffic? Pedestrians involved? So far I have suffered some minor injuries in 2k miles of euc riding. I have suffered ZERO injuries in 1,000,000+ miles of a vehicle, sometimes at speeds of 70mph. Altho, I doubt i would have the same stats if I were driving on sidewalks, and my euc stats would fare much worse If I were constantly riding on the interstate during rush hour. Too many variables, apples to oranges...

 

As for the original question of the value of a suspension..

It seems about $2,000 atm...

Edited August 5, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Menace]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

As for the original question of the value of a suspension..

It seems about $2,000 atm...

I think I would value it at $300-400. If I could buy my RS with a GOOD suspension system I would pay about $2400 for it.

[The Brahan Seer]

On 8/4/2021 at 5:58 PM, Unventor said:

 

I just had a faulty control board replacement. My V11 died without warning at a 25-30kmh speed. Now the force I felt hitting the ground was hard but in full lvl2 MC suit 3D0 pads I managed. But if you were to have this at 100kmh / 60mph I doubt that would go down well. Due to this I speculate too that top speed increases are not going to be massive. And even if they were I am not tapping into that. 

 

Sorry to hear about your crash but the force you felt hitting the ground will not increase the faster you go, the force you felt would be from gravity.  F=mass x acceleration, mass is your body weight and the acceleration is from gravity at 9.8 metres per second. So going faster means 

So you could go faster and still feel the same face plant though sliding along the road and hitting something else isn't fun. So maybe that will limit some since your odds of falling feels greater. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by The Brahan Seer

[Paul A]

It's like getting two cannonballs.

Fire one out horizontally from a cannon.

Drop one from the same height as the cannon.

Both will hit the ground at the same time.

[Unventor]

24 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Sorry to hear about your crash but the force you felt hitting the ground will not increase the faster you go, the force you felt would be from gravity.  F=mass x acceleration, mass is your body weight and the acceleration is from gravity at 9.8 metres per second. So going faster means 

So you could go faster and still feel the same face plant though sliding along the road and hitting something else isn't fun. So maybe that will limit some since your odds of falling feels greater. 

That is all very well in theory. But the crash mechanic from an EUC is almost always different to any other vehicle because it is a 1 patch zone you stand on that is "selfbalanced". This means that instead dead motor with rotate you forward, especially the more you are logged into the wheel with pads and spiked/hex pedals. 

If you are willing to test your theory from above, fine with me. I am not going to do this. And I have a respect of what I am doing especially when it comes with speed. 

[Unventor]

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

It's like getting two cannonballs.

Fire one out horizontally from a cannon.

Drop one from the same height as the cannon.

Both will hit the ground at the same time.

That is the theory part, but once you had a few crashes you will find that speed does impact the force you will feel. 

[Paul A]

Yes, greater speed, greater abrasion from the road.

[Chriull]

36 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

So you could go faster and still feel the same face plant though sliding along the road and hitting something else isn't fun.

In your choosen picture the horicpntal speed seems to be about zero at impact, which is not necessarily true while faceplanting. As you already implied by your mentioning of sliding.

So the perpendicular part of the force truly stays the same, but with increasing speed the horicontal part grows.

The resulting impact vector get bigger by this, but the impact angle more shallow.

With the "weak" body hitting the rough, hard asphalt this more "shallow" impact angle seems not to reduce the higher impact force...

Edited August 6, 2021 by Chriull

[Circuitmage]

There are several things that come into play when you are actually moving and hit the ground, vs standing still (or suddenly stopped).

Although gravity is the same, you are adding a tangential velocity force component. So, as @Paul A pointed out, you will have more road rash...more rolling, more scrapes. However, you may also be in a better "riding position" and in a better position to break your fall. Last time I hit the ground, I was moving about 15-20 mph, had my legs bent, and landed on my knee pads and skidded. That's much better than a sudden stop where a face plant may be eminent or you impact something (like a car, wall, ??).

Seems like being on a moderately moving (5-15mph) fall would be better than a sudden stop. What comes to mind is the difference between simply being pushed vs having someone hold your feet or blocking your legs and being pushed. The latter tends to be more difficult to cope with. Also, if you watch skateboarders (ex. the Olympics), you will see them wearing only knee pads and falling on their knees when they come off their board. They are well trained to fall with minimal damage.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Circuitmage

[Circuitmage]

17 hours ago, winterwheel said:

So much to disagree with there. I've got four years and 40,000kms+ in and have yet to "faceplant". Cars are a risk-based form of transportation, 38,000!!! people die *every year* in them, in the US alone. My city is building out bike lanes like crazy, and these are ideal for casual EUC riding. Cities are under a lot of pressure to reduce carbon emissions and EUC are a fantastic way to do that.

I see people all the time abusing the 2 wheel scooters when I live and getting into very bad accidents, and most people I encounter (I offer them to ride my EUC) refuse to even try it. I have seen ambulances responding to 2 wheel scooter accidents and I also see lots of people (with no motorcycle safety or "common sense") riding 2 wheel scooters oblivious to any other traffic around them. I firmly believe the EUC is just another version of motorcycle.

I too have never faceplanted, but that does not mean it does not happen.

I was not stating any safety record of cars (yes they also have their issues), but the reason so many people die in cars...is because there are more people in them. I was comparing the different options. I live in a place were there are more trucks on the road than small cars, and I love small cars. So simply going out in traffic puts me at risk. However, it s 3 or 4 orders of magnitude greater if I try and ride my EUC on the street with them....which I avoid. It simply makes no sense to try and mix EUC's with cars on the road. If you are someone that does chose to ride with cars, more power to you....you are taking those 3 orders of magnitude into your own hands. 

Even bike lines are dangerous. I have bicycle riders that hold EUC's in contempt here. One my biggest fears is one of those jerks coming up next to me and bumping me off the road. Now we have pizza robots, pedestrians, and lots of other traffic in our bike lanes. 

As far as carbon emissions, where I live, there is very little thought in that. EUC's are a good option and have helped me reduce miles on my car, but I don't think the average person will adopt an EUC. I seem MANY MANY more people getting 2 wheel scooters, e-bikes and regular bikes where I am. In fact, I recently ran the #'s, and traded my hybrid car in for a pure gas turbo. There's very little gas savings in the hybrid car I had, and much more fun in the turbo (plus my insurance cost dropped). 

[winterwheel]

46 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

EUC's are a good option and have helped me reduce miles on my car

I'm glad we can at least agree on this point. 

[The Brahan Seer]

I agree with all the comments above! Crashes are not fun at any speed. I broke my back in '95 going round a bend on a Honda CBR600. I wasn't going that fast about 30mph but back wheel crossed a wet manhole cover slid out and I hit a parapet of a bridge made of stone. I took full responsibility for my lack of awareness of the road at that time and my skill level. Fortunately I was wearing full leathers at the time. 50% of motorcycle deaths occur below 30mph. Ride safe everyone.

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

In your choosen picture the horicpntal speed seems to be about zero at impact, which is not necessarily true while faceplanting. As you already implied by your mentioning of sliding.

So the perpendicular part of the force truly stays the same, but with increasing speed the horicontal part grows.

The resulting impact vector get bigger by this, but the impact angle more shallow.

With the "weak" body hitting the rough, hard asphalt this more "shallow" impact angle seems not to reduce the higher impact force...

So basically the force down is the same but the friction with the moving ground translates to more vector force. 
Solution: don’t stick to the ground when you hit it. = more slippery plastic or nylon and less sticky leather and raw skin. 

[RockyTop]

I always wondered if the friction situation becomes less at some point. Hitting the ground at 30mph you stick more than hitting the ground at 150 mph. ( not that you would live through it) It seems at some point the friction does not have time to catch with equal force. 
Example: 

You see a box sliding slowly down a slide. At first the box moves slowly then stops. After a minute it starts moving slowly again. Then once it reaches a speed it just takes off like the friction is gone. I know there is a name for that. I just can’t remember. 
 

 We need a test dummy and a flat bed truck. We need to test road friction. @ShanesPlanet are you busy this weekend? 
 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by RockyTop

[Unventor]

Let's just say I have tested a few crash situations. You can find these described here on the forum. And some with pictures that NEVER leave your mind, right @Rehab1?

And yes I have had different impact vectors on all of them. 

What most tend to forget is once you realize something is unavoidable, the higher speed the less chance you have not end up in the situation you are about to enter but also the less options you have to pick the lesser evil on what options you can come up with.

There is a very huge difference between a planed crash vs a suprise what just happened moment. 

I have had these situation s on EUCs and on different once. I am pretty sure if you search for my crash history here on the forum you will find that I know what I am talking about. 

And I can with huge confidence say I have had a handful of situations that my V11 suspension and due the ride characteristics that I would not be able to ride anymore. These are also part of my V11 review thread. It is very hard to explain the desperation you have been in and how close a call it was. 

What I can say EUC medium to high speed crashes are not the same as any other vehicle.

If you are probably geared up it is much better for you. But do not think it mitigate all risks. And you can not know how you react when you find yourself in that shitty moment that you cannot avoid the pain.

Sideways sliding on gravel you didn't expect on a oval circuit while leaning into the turn.

Then fighting for balance and control hitting this kind of rock

The is when you need this size of toilet paper.

And this is the result after a few days.

On another incident I clipped a curb trying to avoid a skateboard er in my cycle lane coming from opposite direction.

The result a dislocated shoulder that 6 full-grown people couldn't pull back into its correct posision until I were fully sodated. Not because of pain but because of muscle reaction.

These are for now my worst injuries. Both happen at 25-30kmh and geared up.

You can debate things here and draw all you like. But one thing is internet. What happens in real life do not always match what you read.

Now I take my precautions but in hindsight you often find you missed something or neglected something that you shouldn't. And so was my latest crash to on my V11 with Inmotion app warning for issues that didn't make sense then went away and fw update it demanded that didn't complete and yet I just had to ride it to test it. I don't blame Inmotion for this crash. It was my silly actions that put me in this situation. 

Anyway. Today you got 50cents of comments with pictures. All I am hope that riders consider their actions. We all take risks. It is part of life. But there are smart ways to do this and right the and place for it.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Unventor
Btw I don't have any permanent injuries from above incidents. I had been lucky.