Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Sumako]

10 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I think the only real threat of compulsory regulation comes in the form of registration. But even that will likely be state by state. Not all states require insurance on cars, so i dont see why every state would require it for an euc. Taxation, liscensing, and inspections will vary state to state just like with cars.

The only thing all states have in common when it comes to driving is registration. They need to be able.to identify you in the case of traffic infractions or accidents. In RI, mopeds under 50cc do not need to be registered, so maybe we can slip in under similar regulations. But a sherman or monster pro blasting 45 mph down the street is probably pushing that envelope. And these machines are not going to suddenly get smaller and slower thats for sure. 

Voluntary insurance coverage can still be available for those who want it. And im sure some states will require insurance. (Massachusetts will for sure require it, no doubt in my mind. But vermont and florida don't require insurance on cars so no way they require it for euc)

Of course you live in California, i would prepare for mandatory registration, mamdatory insurance, manditory inspections, excise tax, the whole gambit 🤣

Nahhh, CA is an anti-cop state.  Not enough police to enforce such a thing. 

[Mark13i]

56 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Nahhh, CA is an anti-cop state.  Not enough police to enforce such a thing. 

Man.  Every sentence you say says you only believe in strength.  You really don't have any ideals? 

[Treatz]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

Treatz I have answered your question. I do not have a yes or no to your question. I have a paragraph. Here is my answer. Again:

”Im not interested in Policing the riding habits of other riders. You and others have that handled pretty well. I am ONLY focused on maintaining and not expanding, any further, on the existing laws that govern our hobby wheels. Any attempt to create more government over reach into our hobby, including compelling riders to have to make annual tax/registration/insurance, is wrong for EUC riders in the United States. Plain and simple.”

You pitch perfectly demonstrate my point.

You provide answers to questions that nobody ever asked you.

If you truly think you answered my question then there may be legitimate reading comprehension issues. That's not an insult.  I'll immediately jump off your back right now if we're having literacy issues because I'm not trying to be mean to you.

But I don't think you misunderstood the question at all. You know exactly what I was asking. You are being willfully dodgy, but we're a good match because, as you noted, I'm incessant.

You know full well that I did NOT ask you for your thoughts on policing, taxes, regulations, and all your other distractions. There are threads for every single one of those topics so why would I ask you about those things? You could go there any time if that's where you want to drive the conversation.

This thread, however, is about something different.  You know that. You've been reminded incessantly. You are off topic and have been from the word "go." You don't seem to be able to control yourself. You're like a wild man who refuses to hear what anyone is saying and you swing at anyone who doesn't hold your views. It's unsettling to watch. Not healthy at all.

I sincerely want to nail down where you stand on this topic because I believe that if you answered honestly, we'd be in agreement. But you don't want that. You want to distract, dodge, and backtalk to our volunteer moderations. I find that to be really problematic (and anti-social). They are here to make this community a place we can enjoy. They see what you've doing this entire time and try to get you to stay on topic and you go into belligerent-toddler mode.

For what, man? Why are you soaking up so much attention? Why not realize you're may be the one that's that problem here? (It was obvious to me back on page 6!). From the very beginning, your comments were about making this conversation into big brother stuff. It wasn't. You've been a perpetual victim on this thread and it has nothing to do with you whatsoever. Why? Just why?

We're not talking about policing you. Nobody is. How can any of us even make that happen? Sheath your sword already. Nobody coming with laws to micromanage your riding. In fact, we're trying to prevent exactly if you'd just listen for once.

No matter how you justify, there's not excuse for your conduct. None at all.

Now, do you believe that unsafe riding behaviors that put others in fear for their safety is a bad look for the community?

The answer is "OF COURSE" and now we don't need to argue. We agree. And nobody came for your rights. See...it didn't have to be that hard. 

 

 

[Heyzeus]

18 minutes ago, Treatz said:

Now, do you believe that unsafe riding behaviors that put others in fear for their safety is a bad look for the community?

The answer is "OF COURSE" and now we don't need to argue. We agree. And nobody came for your rights. See...it didn't have to be that hard. 

I find that when you have a really simple question like that, with a super obvious correct answer that 90 some percent of people could agree on is the correct answer, and someone still dodges or refuses to answer it, It's because it would force them to acknowledge that they are likely in the wrong or are likely themselves engaging in similarly wrong or bad behavior.

Hypothetical dodger:

Quote

S*** I kind of ride like that, If I admit that riding like that is wrong and totally not cool then I have to admit that I'm kind of also in the wrong and not cool which challenges my perception of being an awesome person

 

[Sumako]

2 hours ago, Mark13i said:

Man.  Every sentence you say says you only believe in strength.  You really don't have any ideals? 

Believing in strength is a bad thing? I guess it is if you don’t see strength an ideal. But it’s your irony. 

[CarlW]

On 7/5/2021 at 4:41 PM, Sumako said:

My overall point is this; you won’t know exactly how you will feel about these topics and issues until you are riding your new wheel on the daily. After learning your first wheel in on it’s way, to me, your comments are going to be assumptions and expectations; not real experiences.

You don't know a thing about me or my life experiences to be making any judgements on my ability to make an informed decision on the parts of this conversation I have chosen to participate in.  In fact your assumptions are condescending, which seems to be one of the few ways you are able to communicate.  No amount of riding a EUC will alter my morals and ethics.  That comes from a good upbringing, having empathy for others, and doing my best to communicate with common courtesy.  Something you may want to consider if you are at all serious about having meaningful discourse.  I have to agree with Treatz's perspective at this point.  You seem to be doing your best to be derogatory and objectionable.  Nothing you have added to this conversation has swayed my perspective mostly because you have refused to participate in a respectful manner.       

[Mark13i]

22 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Believing in strength is a bad thing? I guess it is if you don’t see strength an ideal. But it’s your irony. 

Such a wonderful thing.  Fits into a totalitarian or failed state

[Chriull]

12 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

If that's directed at my recent post, sorry

amongst others, yes. But no real problem. Just a small call to order before things maybe start to escalate.

Quote

At the same time though what is wrong with stating water is wet.

<useless nitpick mode on> Water is a fluid and can, if temperature and pressure is right, make things wet. So things touched by water could become wet, but not the water itself 

Quote

Personally insulting some other forum user that you are going back and forth having a discussion with, yes, definitely not cool.

Saying someone who slaps an old woman in the face is a jerk or an a****** or i****, I don't see how that would be controversial (again maybe your reply wasn't directed at me).

One can always find examples to justify swearing/insulting. If one is upset, it's often hard to suppress the itch to insult others. That's imho why "acting in the heat of the moment" is often a mitigation factor.

But finally it's just an escalation. An open invitation to the opponent to start a fight or leave the place humiliated.

There is no content in an insult which could move the discussion forward.

But there are enough other possibilities in the english language to express ones arguments for asocial, disrespectfull, not appropriate, endangering, inacceptable or whatever behaviour. This opens discussion possibilities. Maybe just hard to still find something after 29 pages...

Quote

One should be able to toss out a hypothetical and take a stance on said hypothetical that engaging in such hypothetical actions might hypothetically make that hypothetical person an a******.

Right?, saying it in a way like "that's not the most neighborly of actions bro" just doesn't get the point across in the same way as saying "if you do xyz there is a good chance you are an a******".  

It seems during this topic some members competed in hiding their insults in a way to "comply with the forum rules" but still hit the "opponent" efficiently.

It's very tiresome for the moderation team to follow such content and decide case by case if the border of a direct insult is crossed or not...

The case with an direct personal insult to a previous post(er) is easy. Stating to this same post(er) that "If one does/thinks this or that makes one an asshole" is exactly the same, but now an indirect (but still "hidden" direct) insult. Anything better with the second formulation?

Stating the same for group behaviour of some beeing members here, some not (anymore), some/most not really active would still be a direct insult to any member reading this who behaved more or less this way.

One could also impute someone using insults is purposly putting some more oil into the fire to heat up a discussion...

But definetely it's not "Be good to one another". It's maybe even some simple/easy kind of hate speech, although it most presumably does not really fit the content this expression stands for. After some "calls to order" from a moderator it can be assumed to be "not deemed appropriate by the moderation team" or some parts of it.

Maybe i start with this input an internal moderator discussion to cancel the "directly" from "Don't insult anyone directly" in the rules. As written insults don't help the forum, any discussion or member. Maybe just the one upset getting some relief.

Or it's just human nature that emotional topics have to escalate once all arguments are chewed and it's our duty as moderators to close such topics early enough?

11 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

Sorry, I was out of line but I've just seen to many innocents die on portuguese roads in over 50 years, caused brutal and irresponsable drivers. 

I won't mention that death curse thing again... 

Thanks!

Although i agree with you on these points, i'll like to add that "inapropriate behaviour" seems to be human nature since ever/ages with young males, especially in groups. There would be no Darwin Awards without young males ignoring suicidal tendecies once showing off. And in congested areas endangering of others is ignored the same way... Some are just more creative/stupid/etc or just have less common sense, more testosterone or whatever...

But after all most man calm down with age and some "even" get valuable members of their community.

So i whish everyone full heartedly to survive their "problematic" stages and cause no harm to others!

Which should give no reason to excuse any such behaviour - a very important thing to learn growing up is to bear the consequences for ones actions.

9 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said:

IMHO.. It's the most important topic oc this forum and one that might be a milestone in educating future EUC riders and making life easier for this hobby/sport... long after I'm around on this planet... 

So maybe one reason to not disturb and dilute this topic with "useless" insults?

Edited July 8, 2021 by Chriull
typos

[Lex Smith]

IMHO Winning 'points' on this forum isn't really going to change anything anywhere, especially at page 28.  If potential readers that may have been swayed in their thinking by reading this discourse haven't been swayed by now I'm guessing no amount of rehashing the same points over and over again are going to make a difference.
I've tried blocking a member who I felt wasn't contributing anything constructive to the conversation but since so many still respond to their baiting I find the conversation is still the same since every second post quotes this member.
I'm bailing by unfollowing this thread altogether but would like to leave this quote "Silence is the best response to a fool"    author unknown.

 

[Paul A]

PEVRA -  Personal Electric Vehicle Riders Association 388 Market Street, Suite 1300 • San Francisco, CA 94111 • 415-889-8895 • info@pevra.org

https://pevra.org

PEVRA exists to define a place on our roads, streets and public spaces for personal electric vehicles.

Our goal is 100% legal status for personal electric vehicles in all jurisdictions.

We are far from that goal today. Several countries — the United Kingdom, Germany, Singapore, and others — essentially create criminals of citizens seeking to transport themselves using a zero-emission, minimum-footprint mode of transportation.

 

PEVRA speaks out on behalf of its members and personal electric vehicle riders in the media.

PEVRA advocates for riders in formulation of public policy.

 

 

[Mark13i]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

<useless nitpick mode on> Water is a fluid and can, if temperature and pressure is right, make things wet. So things touched by water could become wet, but not the water itself 

I feel disappointed.  There was not a word about phase transitions 

[Sumako]

4 hours ago, Treatz said:

You pitch perfectly demonstrate my point.

You provide answers to questions that nobody ever asked you.

If you truly think you answered my question then there may be legitimate reading comprehension issues. That's not an insult.  I'll immediately jump off your back right now if we're having literacy issues because I'm not trying to be mean to you.

But I don't think you misunderstood the question at all. You know exactly what I was asking. You are being willfully dodgy, but we're a good match because, as you noted, I'm incessant.

You know full well that I did NOT ask you for your thoughts on policing, taxes, regulations, and all your other distractions. There are threads for every single one of those topics so why would I ask you about those things? You could go there any time if that's where you want to drive the conversation.

This thread, however, is about something different.  You know that. You've been reminded incessantly. You are off topic and have been from the word "go." You don't seem to be able to control yourself. You're like a wild man who refuses to hear what anyone is saying and you swing at anyone who doesn't hold your views. It's unsettling to watch. Not healthy at all.

I sincerely want to nail down where you stand on this topic because I believe that if you answered honestly, we'd be in agreement. But you don't want that. You want to distract, dodge, and backtalk to our volunteer moderations. I find that to be really problematic (and anti-social). They are here to make this community a place we can enjoy. They see what you've doing this entire time and try to get you to stay on topic and you go into belligerent-toddler mode.

For what, man? Why are you soaking up so much attention? Why not realize you're may be the one that's that problem here? (It was obvious to me back on page 6!). From the very beginning, your comments were about making this conversation into big brother stuff. It wasn't. You've been a perpetual victim on this thread and it has nothing to do with you whatsoever. Why? Just why?

We're not talking about policing you. Nobody is. How can any of us even make that happen? Sheath your sword already. Nobody coming with laws to micromanage your riding. In fact, we're trying to prevent exactly if you'd just listen for once.

No matter how you justify, there's not excuse for your conduct. None at all.

Now, do you believe that unsafe riding behaviors that put others in fear for their safety is a bad look for the community?

The answer is "OF COURSE" and now we don't need to argue. We agree. And nobody came for your rights. See...it didn't have to be that hard. 

 

 

[Sumako]

2 hours ago, Mark13i said:

Such a wonderful thing.  Fits into a totalitarian or failed state

So “strength” is really considered a bad thing? 
 

Is this some kind of a Gen Z thing or something; comparing “strength” to “totalitarianism” ? 

[Paul A]

Names sometimes have meanings, characterizations, qualities etc, attached to them.

Forum screen names may have been selected by members who might want to project qualities they may wish to have an association or affinity with.

Googling for their various meanings may provide an insight to motivations of behaviour.

[meepmeepmayer]

You're still talking about that video, guys. Right guys?

edit: I meant as opposed to personal fights. Related discussions are fine, of course.

Edited July 8, 2021 by meepmeepmayer

[Mark13i]

16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're still talking about that video, guys. Right guys?

We don't talk about the movie - my friend

We talk according to the topic of the thread;  what kind of people we want to be to other people - it seems that we treat the title very literally and write very, very broadly 

[Treatz]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

Sumako, thank you for engaging with me in this debate I wish you all the best.

The rest of my comments are for everyone else, but you are welcome to read along. They may pertain to you. It’s a public service announcement that’s appropriate for situations like the one we are witnessing and it goes a little something like this:

-  1 out of every 25 people is a sociopath. It’s way more common than we suspect. (But I was onto this one back on page 6)

-  This thread is a small example of the kind of disruption they inject wherever they go. When you tangle with one of them, they exhibit 100% immunity to reason.

-  They can pose as a well-meaning person. When called out their disruptive behavior, they devise all manner of counter-accusations. They lash out at anyone who threatens to unmask their true nature.

-  They talk down and demean others. They think that by blowing out other people’s candles that it somehow makes theirs burn more brightly.

-  When asked to play by the rules, they show contempt because the rules do not apply to them.

-  When asked to be considerate of others, they don’t even acknowledge their right to exist.

-  To a sociopath, only they matter. Everyone is just a minor and disposable character. 

-  They will hijack the situation to become the center of attention. Even negative attention helps to fuel their insatiable self importance.

-  We’re just strangers on a forum to this type of person. Imagine what it’s like to have to be in such a person’s life—as a spouse, or a kid, a co-worker, a neighbor. There’s no civil conversation with such people. Either you agree with him or you get incessantly trolled. 

But, with enough persistence, they can finally be outed.

Meanwhile, I think that if we factor out all of this guy’s comments, the sum total is that we all pretty much agree that riding in unsafe ways that threatens the well being of others is NOT what this community is about.  It took longer than needed, but I think we’ve gotten all the value out of this thread that we are going to.

 

 

 

[CarlW]

Being new to the forum I am still learning some of the features.  I just figured out how to make someone disappear.  What a nice way to start the day.

         

[Rehab1]

48 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You're still talking about that video, guys. Right guys?

Yep, I was under that impression. The original video was the impetus behind the initial topic/discussion. Hard to believe the topic is going on 1 month.  

Another example. Simple question: Disabled person has the Right Of Way or No Right Of Way?

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Rehab1

[Chriull]

34 minutes ago, CarlW said:

Being new to the forum I am still learning some of the features.  I just figured out how to make someone disappear.  What a nice way to start the day.

         

"Normal" forum members are really gifted! As moderators we do not have the ignore functionality...

[Paulo Mesquita]

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

PEVRA -  Personal Electric Vehicle Riders Association 388 Market Street, Suite 1300 • San Francisco, CA 94111 • 415-889-8895 • info@pevra.org

https://pevra.org

PEVRA exists to define a place on our roads, streets and public spaces for personal electric vehicles.

Our goal is 100% legal status for personal electric vehicles in all jurisdictions.

We are far from that goal today. Several countries — the United Kingdom, Germany, Singapore, and others — essentially create criminals of citizens seeking to transport themselves using a zero-emission, minimum-footprint mode of transportation.

 

PEVRA speaks out on behalf of its members and personal electric vehicle riders in the media.

PEVRA advocates for riders in formulation of public policy.

 

 

@Paul A t you touched the key point of this entire debate. And @Sumako this is a reality we'll all have to face wherever we are in the world: the worst PEV riders behave, in any country, the worse the enforcement laws will fall upon us. And as an ex advertiser I can state this with total certainty... it's civilian and media perception on our behavior that are going to push those laws forward. The better we behave the kinder will those laws be drawn. If we behave like the animals on the ally cat, we're going to get hit very hard, sledgehammer style, by the lawmakers of our own countries for a very long time, until PEVs are finally accepted, as they should, as the future of urban mobility. Until then it's up to us, the pioneers, to self discipline ourselves, so that we don't get hit really hard by the regulators in these early years.

I'm 200% sure that this is the dynamics we need to be aware of. 

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Mark13i said:

We don't talk about the movie - my friend

We talk according to the topic of the thread;  what kind of people we want to be to other people - it seems that we treat the title very literally and write very, very broadly 

So true!!!!! 👍👍👍

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, CarlW said:

Being new to the forum I am still learning some of the features.  I just figured out how to make someone disappear.  What a nice way to start the day.

         

I’ve done that. It gets expensive but feels good. 

 

[OldFartRides]

I would like to commend the mods here for their patience and intelligent responses.

Thank you all. Not an easy job for volunteer work.

Best,

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Another example. Simple question: Disabled person has the Right Of Way or No Right Of Way?

 

Duh, of course the one that’s in a race has the right of way! If the guy in a wheelchair is racing in a larger event than the one with the cam, wheelchair would have right of way. Otherwise, out of the way, sucker, this is NYC!

23 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I’ve done that. It gets expensive but feels good. 

 

Hmm. I have wondered how an old iPad Mini 2 flies anyway…

16 minutes ago, OldFartRides said:

I would like to commend the mods here for their patience and intelligent responses.

Umm… what?