"Dangerous" motorchange on Inmotion V11 is is possible?

[EUChristian]

On 12/6/2020 at 6:17 AM, mrelwood said:

To accept or understand how things are is not the same as “don’t care”. And to try to educate others on how things are is not “defense”. And if the half of the forum all wrote “Unacceptable!!1!”, it would change absolutely nothing in how:

- mail ordering basics work all around the world,

- Chinese EUC manufacturers test their products,

- they choose the manufacturers or quality levels of the parts used in EUCs.

 

 Looked like you tried to make your post seem like an actual argument in a debate. But where it fell short was that the comments and claims were guided by emotions of frustration and/or anger, they are not reasonable.

This is pointless so post what you will. I disagree with it. You are speaking as if you speak for everyone ("we get it").  You do not get it as you stated "to accept or to understand how things are"...lol same argument you've made 10 times...as you've structured your statement like an argument ill let you know that we are arguing about "what should be" and you claim thats pointless to discuss. So why keep chiming in?  So be it. You don't think anything can change and accept the status quo and tell anyone who wants to change it they don't understand "how it is".  Sweet. You are blind to how easy one could change the system. My opinion. 

You claim that I created the expectation that more expensive wheels should have better QC and thats a fallacy. Ok..read that statement and realize this is why we can't debate further.  I mean, its just the way it is right?  Everything is just the way it is and thats the way it is!  You've badically made up random EUC rules that are radically different than real life. 

- I expect the flagship Honda or Ford to have better QC than the cheapest model. 

- I expect the top razor from Braun to have better QC than the one they sell at dollar general 

This is obvious and you just want to to keep status quo. I do not. 

Dude can return his wheel. You are right!  And he should return the 2k purchase and have them fix it. Absolutely!  I mean thats how this works and any motivation to speak about changing this system in the least is ill placed because if you disagree with the status quo you are wrong. Seriously its like a CULT here. 

We can and should debate the way of the future and should not be told things are what they are. Is his headlines overtly negative?  Yes. If I saved up for a year to buy my dream wheel and it was broke in a week because nobody tested the bearings I would be too. 

By the way - if he does ship it back - does he pay for shipping both ways?

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by EUChristian

[EUChristian]

I firmly believe that if Inmotion adjusts their QC process to eliminate basic issues that have plagued EUCs from the beginning and then charge me a premium for that model I will pay it. If they want to build a V11 model and call it Pro and say "Here is why you are paying a premium" I would buy it. And if Inmotion does more than other companies on QC they will increase their market share. They are already poised as the safest brand. And it will force other brands to do the same. It's not some mythical Western process its making a niche for yourself and this is a niche to grab. 

If nothing else changed but that we would be winning. 

Is that impossible to accomplish?  Is it impossible to recognize loose motor cables for instance is a problem and fix it?  That cannot happen?  This motor bearing issue was due to rushed QC because all models were coming at once so I'm not even going to get too upset about this time around. Im more about changing the system vs changing a product. And Inmotion is the best company out there so why not them?

Edited December 7, 2020 by EUChristian

[null]

13 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

They are already poised as the safest brand

This is something inmotion users claim, and newbies eat it up. I have yet to see any hard fact about it though.

They have the same failure rates according to ecodrift warranty return stats and are not exempt from being overpowered as you have experienced. I have read here and there that they had "more margin" without being able to get any details as to what that margin was. I'll give them good finishing and a bit thicker shell, but that hardly makes them the "safer" brand. They might be fiddling with a better BMS, good for them, I'll give them thumbs up when there are results. Ninebot also had an evolved BMS, didn't keep the Z10 from having all sorts of issues.

( Anyhow, sorry for the parenthesis )

Edited December 7, 2020 by null

[Dave Wood]

Why wouldn't you just send it back to speedyfeet? they offer a 2yr warranty so where's the problem...

[Unventor]

37 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

By the way - if he does ship it back - does he pay for shipping both ways?

Now that depends both on the reseller and where you live/bought your product. 

If bought inside EU reseller should in general offer to cover the cost of shipping to service. 

But since UK isn't part of EU it matters less if you buy from Speedyfeet as you can't claim this by law.

There are other EU resellers to pick from. But before you buy it is always smart to get this confirmed before purchasing anything. 

That said it is always nice to talk about how you like things to be. But I don't agree at all with you reply above to @mrelwood. 

It is very hard to talk QC and claim a brand has none. In short about the V11 it was supposed to be revealed in January 2020 but was postponed due to development and manufactory and massproduktion difficulties. At the time Inmotion didn't state more that this. It seems in the hindsight that some people have issues no doubt about that, yet others have no issues at all (knock on wood I am part of this group just passed 1000+km today). 

It would be so much easier if a repair service would be in every town like bicycle repairs. Same about cars you have repair shops many places. Unfortunately we are not there yet. 

[Finn Bjerke]

Thx Dave

Good advice - But I might have misunderstood the complexity a vee bit. This operation is like a tireshift, I thought I was forced to attach the motor to the wheel and align them, . Not so.  Inmotions idea of how to tireshift is ... tiresome.  A freind of mine spend 8 workhours doing the V11 motor swap operation.  Thats a long time. 

I saw a film about changing bearings and thought the whole proces was more like this:  Link below:  

Here is the film where they dig themselves into the motor and change the bearing inside of it. 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Finn Bjerke

[Finn Bjerke]

I find it tempting to get better bearings and have a pro install em............later much later

How do I QC the new bearings? 

[Finn Bjerke]

Changing a tire on any other vehicle is a lot easier than the V11 is my guess? Oh well. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, null said:

This is something inmotion users claim, and newbies eat it up. I have yet to see any hard fact about it though.

They have the same failure rates according to ecodrift warranty return stats and are not exempt from being overpowered as you have experienced. I have read here and there that they had "more margin" without being able to get any details as to what that margin was. I'll give them good finishing and a bit thicker shell, but that hardly makes them the "safer" brand. They might be fiddling with a better BMS, good for them, I'll give them thumbs up when there are results. Ninebot also had an evolved BMS, didn't keep the Z10 from having all sorts of issues.

( Anyhow, sorry for the parenthesis )

The firmware from inmotion is extremely conservative.  It has the largest buffer from top speed to cutout speed of any company.  It also starts tiltback warnings earlier than the other brands.  This is the reason why hardcore riders hate inmotion. (This is the "more margin" you asked about)

The build quality and quality control is considered to be the best of the major companys.  People actually suggest you open and thoroughly inspect gotway wheels before riding them so this probably plays into it.

Also the v11 does have a unique split BMS as you alluded to as a backup safety feature.  

No EUC is safe, inmotion just has the reputation of being safest

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, null said:

3 hours ago, EUChristian said:

They are already poised as the safest brand

This is something inmotion users claim, and newbies eat it up. I have yet to see any hard fact about it though.

Multiple sources have revealed InMotion globally outsells all other EUC manufacturers *combined*, with figures from early this year referring to the previous year being something like 60% total marketshare.

Therefore, even if you heard of as many issues with InMotion wheels as any other individual brand (which you don't), that would still reinforce that they have far less issues overall--because correcting for volume you should hear of twice as many issues with InMotion as any other brand which is certainly not the case. In fact we find the opposite is true, even despite how many more InMotion wheels are sold (and the statistically lower-specs of the hardware at the price-point where they dominate), they still maintain their reputation for safety--which taken in the context of sales volumes means they must be *far* greater.

I spoke with ewheels over the phone a couple years ago about InMotion wheel failures and it was really interesting. They said InMotion tends to have a slightly higher than average failure of boards where they just don't turn on for some reason--but on the flip side they have a much lower than average failure of boards while in operation/while being ridden (so if it turns on, then you should be fine). Never really seen this distinction talked about online, but ewheels spoke as if it was pretty definitive at least at the time. I think most riders would take that particular tradeoff any day of the week.

Edited December 7, 2020 by AtlasP

[null]

@AtlasP : yes, there are many inmotion products sold, we have no numbers neither of sales or failure rates other than eco drift. So you don’t have any hard facts to claim from.

@GoGeorgeGo : you provide no numbers to back your claim. You just state more margin again. If anything inmotions smaller batteries will quickly get you to a low voltage situation.

Edited December 7, 2020 by null

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, null said:

@AtlasP : yes, there are many inmotion products sold, we have no numbers neither of sales or failure rates other than eco drift. So you don’t have any hard facts to claim from.

@GoGeorgeGo : you provide no numbers to back your claim. You just state more margin again.

 

Gotway literally lets you turn tiltback off entirely so i guess your asking what is the margin difference between kingsong and inmotion? 

As i understand it the the tiltback for inmotion starts earlier on the same setting as a kingsong wheel. But even if it was exactly the same, Kingsongs give you top speed for 50% of the battery before limiting you while Inmotion begins limiting speed earlier. (Even the v11 which is limited starting at 80%)

Margin just means how much they let you push the wheel at different voltage levels. No i do not have a comparison breakdown chart for every model of wheel

Edited December 7, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[null]

So you have no ground for stating that inmotion Is the safer brand.

If you can’t be bothered doing your homework before making massive claims just don’t do it. It’s not by explaining to me that top speed is reduced earlier that you cover half of what makes safety margin.

I have nothing against Inmotion but this « safety » circlejerk is self sustained fantasy that mislead newbies.

[GoGeorgeGo]

14 minutes ago, null said:

So you have no ground for stating that inmotion Is the safer brand.

If you can’t be bothered doing your homework before making massive claims just don’t do it. It’s not by explaining to me that top speed is reduced earlier that you cover half of what makes safety margin.

I have nothing against Inmotion but this « safety » circlejerk is self sustained fantasy that mislead newbies.

I didn't think saying inmotion tiltback occurs slightly earlier than kingsong is massive claims.

If you want to completely disregard speed limiting and the battery management then theres not a lot to say. You agree that speed limiting makes up a portion of the safety margin, and that inmotion limits sooner?

I personally really like the  battery management of the v11, was one of its main selling points for me. The speed limiting i also like, i dont want to be anywhere near speed limits on these wheels, im a pretty big guy i can overpower by accident

Edited December 8, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[EUChristian]

11 minutes ago, null said:

So you have no ground for stating that inmotion Is the safer brand.

If you can’t be bothered doing your homework before making massive claims just don’t do it. It’s not by explaining to me that top speed is reduced earlier that you cover half of what makes safety margin.

I have nothing against Inmotion but this « safety » circlejerk is self sustained fantasy that mislead newbies.

I agree. I originally stated they were poised to be the most safe brand because of their reputation - and you are correct that reputations do not at all have to be based on reality. 

[Finn Bjerke]

Are we driftig away from the topic ?  A wee bit ? 

[Bumblebees]

I don't think riders push Inmotion wheels to their limits like they would a Gotway.  That might explain why they have such a low cutout rate when compared. 

[Finn Bjerke]

Does that relate to motor change and bearings ? 

[Silver]

18 minutes ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Does that relate to motor change and bearings ? 

Maybe if you had named this thread something like "Looking for help and advice on V11 motor change" people wouldn't be getting off topic and arguing as much.

[mrelwood]

 

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

same argument you've made 10 times...

And you still misread what I wrote. I’ll try better.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

we are arguing about "what should be" and you claim thats pointless to discuss. So why keep chiming in?

Because I never said that, and I don’t think it’s pointless to discuss. I get that you have a personal beef with me due to earlier discussions about a different subject. But you continuously twisting people’s opinions and aggressively misquoting them is not discussion, nor does it change things or help with the original topic.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

You don't think anything can change and accept the status quo

Absolutely not true. I consider even myself being personally responsible of a certain feature being changed in the V11. What even the whole EUC community can’t change though is the global and universal warranty process, especially by having a tantrum towards Inmotion.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

and tell anyone who wants to change it they don't understand "how it is".

No, I tell people who claim Inmotion warranty process being sucky and unfair that it is how currently the best companies handle warranty.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

You claim that I created the expectation that more expensive wheels should have better QC and thats a fallacy.

No, didn’t say that, and of course I don’t think that. Read again.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Everything is just the way it is and thats the way it is!

And this is how you expect to be a part of a fruitful discussion, factual argument, and change things on a global scale?

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

you just want to to keep status quo. I do not.

I haven’t yet even expressed my opinion whether I think things should change or not. But you do need a dose of reality. You think a heated off-topic argument with personal attacks on a niche forum is going to change global warranty mechanisms? Think again. If you want to change this specific thing, you have to start from somewhere else completely.

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Seriously its like a CULT here.

Ssh, listen... what is that I hear? Yes, it’s all of the companies of the world and universal trade alliances agreeing on changing things because of what you commented here! Wow, well done! I stand corrected, you changed things!

10 hours ago, EUChristian said:

By the way - if he does ship it back - does he pay for shipping both ways?

That’s up to the warranty policy of the seller.

[Rawnei]

13 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

The firmware from inmotion is extremely conservative.  It has the largest buffer from top speed to cutout speed of any company.  It also starts tiltback warnings earlier than the other brands.  This is the reason why hardcore riders hate inmotion. (This is the "more margin" you asked about)

The build quality and quality control is considered to be the best of the major companys.  People actually suggest you open and thoroughly inspect gotway wheels before riding them so this probably plays into it.

Also the v11 does have a unique split BMS as you alluded to as a backup safety feature.  

No EUC is safe, inmotion just has the reputation of being safest

 

I'm sorry but the V11 safety features are not very good, the speaker is way too low it gets drowned out by wind noise when you ride around 50 or faster, I'm wondering if they even tested it at those speeds. And the tilt-back if you have 50 or 55kmh as max speed starts to creep too early and too slow so it can be difficult to feel that it happens, it's easy to just mistake it for fatigue or something else because it happens so slowly, see my findings in cut-off thread. Try setting the V11 max speed to 30kmh and compare the tilt-back behavior which is much easier to tell it's happening. The only saving for me is having EUC World alert to help me know what is going on.

Compared to my MSP where the beeper is loud and easy to hear and triggers at 80% power output which gives you a good margin and by the way I seldom hit 80% output at all.

[GoGeorgeGo]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I'm sorry but the V11 safety features are not very good, the speaker is way too low it gets drowned out by wind noise when you ride around 50 or faster, I'm wondering if they even tested it at those speeds. And the tilt-back if you have 50 or 55kmh as max speed starts to creep too early and too slow so it can be difficult to feel that it happens, it's easy to just mistake it for fatigue or something else because it happens so slowly, see my findings in cut-off thread. Try setting the V11 max speed to 30kmh and compare the tilt-back behavior which is much easier to tell it's happening. The only saving for me is having EUC World alert to help me know what is going on.

Compared to my MSP where the beeper is loud and easy to hear and triggers at 80% power output which gives you a good margin and by the way I seldom hit 80% output at all.

Im really not here to defend or change your minds about any companies, i make zero money from any of them.

I just tried to explain why inmotion has the reputation of safety.  No need to be sorry for having a different opinion. 

I have not noticed the tiltback being to gentle on my v11, i notice it when i get ripping to fast (i do not use fancier mode, 50 km/h is where i leave the setting).

Personally i dont trust myself with a beeper no matter how loud it is. I will push through it without thinking about it until its to late. 

(I didnt intend for this to be a huge discussion lol i just thought atlas was genuinely curious why people say inmotion has a larger safety margin so i tried to answer)

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Im really not here to defend or change your minds about any companies, i make zero money from any of them.

I just tried to explain why inmotion has the reputation of safety.  No need to be sorry for having a different opinion. 

I have not noticed the tiltback being to gentle on my v11, i notice it when i get ripping to fast (i do not use fancier mode, 50 km/h is where i leave the setting).

Personally i dont trust myself with a beeper no matter how loud it is. I will push through it without thinking about it until its to late. 

(I didnt intend for this to be a huge discussion lol i just thought atlas was genuinely curious why people say inmotion has a larger safety margin so i tried to answer)

But at the same time you are talking about how safe the V11 is which is not really true, you can overpower it by mistake because the safety mechanisms that are there to inform you of the wheels limit aren't very good, it's false security and puts a lot more responsibility on the rider. Reaching the top speed of 50kmh or even 55kmh in fancy mode is not difficult and it's important to know when you are close to the wheels limit. I wish this wasn't so since I own a V11, I spoke to Liam but they can not make the alarm louder it's at max already, I also spoke to him about how slow the tilt-back is and asked if they could look into that but got no reply. I also owned a V10F that's a different story, it has a much more noticeable tilt-back, same as V11 if you lower the max speed so probably the same algorithm which doesn't work well for higher speeds. I would strongly recommend any owner of the V11 that rides up to 50-55kmh to setup custom alerts in EUC World or similar app to prevent purely accidental cut-off.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Rawnei

[mike_bike_kite]

20 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Are we driftig away from the topic ?  A wee bit ? 

It's difficult to really know what the topic is. The topic you gave supplied was "Dangerous motorchange on Inmotion V11 is is possible?" but that doesn't make any sense at all. Are you asking:

• Is it possible to change the motor? - yes
• Do you need to change the motor? - no, just the bearings
• If it's dangerous to change the motor? - no
• Is it dangerous for you to change the motor? - most likely

[GoGeorgeGo]

45 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

But at the same time you are talking about how safe the V11 is which is not really true, you can overpower it by mistake because the safety mechanisms that are there to inform you of the wheels limit aren't very good, it's false security and puts a lot more responsibility on the rider. Reaching the top speed of 50kmh or even 55kmh in fancy mode is not difficult and it's important to know when you are close to the wheels limit. I wish this wasn't so since I own a V11, I spoke to Liam but they can not make the alarm louder it's at max already, I also spoke to him about how slow the tilt-back is and asked if they could look into that but got no reply. I also owned a V10F that's a different story, it has a much more noticeable tilt-back, same as V11 if you lower the max speed so probably the same algorithm which doesn't work well for higher speeds. I would strongly recommend any owner of the V11 that rides up to 50-55kmh to setup custom alerts in EUC World or similar app to prevent purely accidental cut-off.

I am not talking about how safe the v11 is, no wheel is safe.  

I just expressed the reasons for which inmotion has the reputation of being the safest.  Clearly you disagree which is awesome, luckily there are many options for us all to choose from and make the best decision for ourselves.  

Im suprised you dont notice the tiltback though, im not so sure that is acting correctly for you, mine kicks back pretty hard at 50km/h 

I wonder if there is a programming issue with the fancier mode or if its intended to not be as noticeable so as not to aggrivate the "professional riders" the wheel is marketed towards.

As stated previously, i do not use the fancier mode on my v11. The wheel was not designed for that speed, and i feel more at ease riding well within its intended boundries.  If i wanted a really fast wheel i would have gone with a gotway or veteran

Edited December 8, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo