"Dangerous" motorchange on Inmotion V11 is is possible?

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Shane I agree with you 100%.  Here is my question - do you agree that the very reason the bar is set low is because everyone accepts the current state of affairs?  Thus the market forces cannot work to generate better quality?  In other words, the only way to make money is to sell wheels and you must sell them to willing buyers who...buy them?  So until the community demands more through the power of the wallet things will not change...and we accept this. 

Thats my point of the "cult" atmosphere...it drives bad market behavior. Of course I know an EUC isn't like an IPhone. But to pretend that things should just be accepted as they are is silly. And further...and this is a very important point...the higher the dollar the better QC the product should have. If I buy a 3k wheel or a 4k wheel I should not have wires rubbing and screws undone or missing completely. I accept that on a 1200 dollar wheel sure...but come on here. 

I disagree with the premiss that market pressures are forcing poor quality.  We are recieving poor quality because the market is so small.  

People are buying every new wheel that comes out and the older models quickly become all but obsolete.  We have far from optimized the machine yet, and until the machine has achieved its "final form" we will not recieve the highest quality.  

I do think its headed that direction, prices are going up, models are becoming more performance heavy.  But by buying the new model, you are making the quality issue completely obsolete. We demonstrate our prioritization of quality by purchasing the newest biggest fastest machine.  AKA low priority.

Once wheels have "plateaued" so to say that every company has comparable specs for comparable price points, thats when quality starts to creep up the priorities list.  

For now, only 2 or 3 models are capable of touching 50 mph , another 4 or 5 can hit 40 mph, and about a dozen total go 30 mph+ and they have all different sized tires, suspensions, different firmwares.  Your really talking about different products almost with every model, so there is no high quality option to buy in any category.  

The closest thing is probably the Inmotion V8.  Its the worlds most sold EUC supposedly, its been in production for many years now so most of the bugs have been worked out.  Its made by the largest EUC company in the world so errors cost them more than any company in the world, meaning it needs to have a higher standard.

You would think the highest quality item on the market would be made for the high end models, the elite clientele.  But the reality is the best machines are made for newer riders. Mostly just a product of how new the market still is imo. 

As machines evolve and companies grow, quality will be forced to increase just from a competitive standpoint.  But right now the competition isnt over quality, its over specs/cost ratio right now.

Once specs/cost is a wash for all brands, then quality is what seperates brands

Edited December 4, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[Silver]

2 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Hey my IPhone broke (1200 USD) within days of purchase but its all good - Apple sent me a video and a magnifying glass so I could rip it a part and rebuild it so I could use it. Righhtttttt

I feel like an iPhone is a bad example for many reasons. This would be more similar to buying a low end 200 USD smart phone and then complaining that you had to open it up to replace a bad battery with a new one they sent. You could buy an EUC for the price of an iPhone (and last time I checked an iPhone cant carry a person at 30mph), an iPhone is a premium product in its market with a price much higher then it's lower budget options. The iPhone of the EUC world doesn't exist because of the small market and if it did it would cost 6000 USD or more. People are used to paying an exorbitant amount for the extra polish and iPhone has, I don't think the EUC market is ready for that.

Not to mention shipping cost for something as heavy as an EUC make things much more expensive then a phone.

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I disagree with the premiss that market pressures are forcing poor quality.  We are recieving poor quality because the market is so small.  

People are buying every new wheel that comes out and the older models quickly become all but obsolete.  We have far from optimized the machine yet, and until the machine has achieved its "final form" we will not recieve the highest quality.  

I do think its headed that direction, prices are going up, models are becoming more performance heavy.  But by buying the new model, you are making the quality issue completely obsolete. We demonstrate our prioritization of quality by purchasing the newest biggest fastest machine.  AKA low priority.

Once wheels have "plateaued" so to say that every company has comparable specs for comparable price points, thats when quality starts to creep up the priorities list.  

For now, only 2 or 3 models are capable of touching 50 mph , another 4 or 5 can hit 40 mph, and about a dozen total go 30 mph+ and they have all different sized tires, suspensions, different firmwares.  Your really talking about different products almost with every model, so there is no high quality option to buy in any category.  

The closest thing is probably the Inmotion V8.  Its the worlds most sold EUC supposedly, its been in production for many years now so most of the bugs have been worked out.  Its made by the largest EUC company in the world so errors cost them more than any company in the world, meaning it needs to have a higher standard.

You would think the highest quality item on the market would be made for the high end models, the elite clientele.  But the reality is the best machines are made for newer riders. Mostly just a product of how new the market still is imo. 

As machines evolve and companies grow, quality will be forced to increase just from a competitive standpoint.  But right now the competition isnt over quality, its over specs/cost ratio right now.

Once specs/cost is a wash for all brands, then quality is what seperates brands

Great post I hope they evolve quickly. Build top end models at 3-4 k and take care of the silly stuff. Build one Lexus model and the rest Camrys 

[GoGeorgeGo]

Just now, EUChristian said:

Great post I hope they evolve quickly. Build top end models at 3-4 k and take care of the silly stuff. Build one Lexus model and the rest Camrys 

I honestly cant wait for the first 5000$ machine.  I hope its that expensive because its that nice, and not just because it has crazy high specs.  Give me a 5000$ Sherman please

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, Silver said:

I feel like an iPhone is a bad example for many reasons. This would be more similar to buying a low end 200 USD smart phone and then complaining that you had to open it up to replace a bad battery with a new one they sent. You could buy an EUC for the price of an iPhone (and last time I checked an iPhone cant carry a person at 30mph), an iPhone is a premium product in its market with a price much higher then it's lower budget options. The iPhone of the EUC world doesn't exist because of the small market and if it did it would cost 6000 USD or more. People are used to paying an exorbitant amount for the extra polish and iPhone has, I don't think the EUC market is ready for that.

Not to mention shipping cost for something as heavy as an EUC make things much more expensive then a phone.

$2000 is $2000. Well at least to the majority of folks that would consider that a substantial purchase. I think the premise stands. Shipping - I'll give you that good point. I'm willing to pay shipping for a fix. Maybe some do not. 

[EUChristian]

1 minute ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I honestly cant wait for the first 5000$ machine.  I hope its that expensive because its that nice, and not just because it has crazy high specs.  Give me a 5000$ Sherman please

I'm with you here i want a motorcycle with one wheel and I'm still talking maybe 40 mph top speed I don't need a corvette top speed isn't the issue.  I just want power and control. I'll keep it go 30 even. When I lean in I want complete confidence a 210lb rider will take off with. Complete confidence that I will not overlean. This machine is the closest I see besides the Monster Pro and it doesn't have suspension. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 minute ago, EUChristian said:

I'm with you here i want a motorcycle with one wheel and I'm still talking maybe 40 mph top speed I don't need a corvette top speed isn't the issue.  I just want power and control. I'll keep it go 30 even. When I lean in I want complete confidence a 210lb rider will take off with. Complete confidence that I will not overlean. This machine is the closest I see besides the Monster Pro and it doesn't have suspension. 

Exactly, once the specs kinda plateau at a safe 45 mph and a standard acceptable range, the quality will suddenly be the differentiator.  

I want carbon fiber shells, advanced BMS systems, 200$ ball bearings, adjustable lighting, give me an all metal assembly.  All high quality parts, no soft screws, no injection molded parts. Super high quality audio, built in tire pump/tools, a storage area. Cup holders!!!  A seat thats actually worth 100$ lol

They can dramatically improve the quality of these machines still

[Silver]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

$2000 is $2000. Well at least to the majority of folks that would consider that a substantial purchase.

2000 dollars is certainly a substantial purchase but different products have different expectations for that price. I would have a way higher expectations of quality for a $2000 phone vs a $2000 car (if that's pushing it too far for even hyperbole then a $2000 motorcycle even)

Honestly though I feel like George summed up my opinions on the state of things better then I did.

[Mac]

18 hours ago, Unventor said:

Yet another headline to draw negative attention. But then again I didn't expect anything else from OP. 

If you choose to see the bad that is all you are going to see. 

So what is the next brilliant headline you can make? 

Sorry it was an inside joke wasn’t meant as a slight. It was a sarcastic comment referring to a comment someone (name withheld to protect the sarcastic) with reference to the S-18. 

[Mac]

6 hours ago, EUChristian said:

I would love to debate this with you sir but I feel like you really won't change your position regardless. 

I understand what you are saying. I do. 

China isn't communist. They are more capitalist than they want to admit. And you are right, I can't change anything. Only we can. 

So far my vender EUCO has given total support with regard to my S-18. When you compare the design, and real value incorporated into the One Wheel (mostly made in America) and compare it to the V11 or the S-18 if they were manufactured in the USA you would have a machine that cost much more, even with outsourced parts, probably with better parts but considerably more. I’m pretty satisfied with the S-18 even considering the time and money spent to bring it up to my standards. Yes they did have some real problems out of the gate, but they can be summed up pretty easily. The design of the S-18 is remarkable. Its design and attention to fit is top notch. The manufacturing is reasonable quality compared to the standards of the industry. 1) In my never to be humble opinion where they fell down was in an inexperienced assembly line. The first thing that QC should have noticed was the addition of a gold paint applied over the original anodized shock arms and an inexperienced assembly of the parts. They should have cleaned the paint before installing the bearings. 2) Next was purchasing whether they didn’t have enough time to order or make the specified parts or just didn’t have the aptitude to order them was the another failure. 3) They sold them before these problems were corrected! 

Inmotion seems to have the same fate with there bearings, but because I don’t own one I can only speak to the conversation at hand. Both machines are a substantial leap into a new era of EUC’s. I’d love to see a Made In America stamp on them, but I’ll get what’s available at this point...

[FinRider]

This EUC thingy has its own subculture and we are all "guilty" of modifying the culture to what we have today. 

The whole concept of "1st/2nd batch wheels" is ridiculous, yet we have come to accept it for what it is and with that, poor quality with lots of "issues" that we have to sort out ourselves. Some of us happily shell out 2K for this "experience". We (the early adopters of early batch wheels) are the true fools who willingly accept inferior quality. This just goes to prove how niche this market is.

There is a reason why no "western culture" manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon. The quantities are small and the complexity is very high. It is also a rapidly evolving market due to its newness, which requires companies to spend a considerable amount of their (relatively small) revenue on R&D to keep up with the market needs and demands. With labor cost being what they are in the western world and top this off with the liability... these wheels will continue to be developed in China for the foreseeable future.

I willingly accept the fact that EUC's are of subpar quality due to the above mentioned reasons. Nobody forced me to shell out 2K on my S18. I was fully aware of the fact that it will require some pretty extensive TLC and beyond. I am however an enthusiast and "educated" buyer as most of you are who troll these boards. I knew I could have opted for a more mature product and expected higher "quality" like the KS18XL or Inmotion V8/V10 which by know are fairly reliable wheels. Yet I chose to get an early batch wheel... and mind you, with no regrets although I have had and still have my fair share of "issues".

I do feel sorry for the casual, uneducated buyer though. Do they have the right to expect a quality product for a 2K purchase? Sure they do, which is why we have the comparisons to high end cellphones, for which we expect impeccable performance and quality. The reality is quite different though and will continue in its current state for years to come and imho its just something we have to accept. The sales volumes of these devices is just to small to expect something "better".

I do not want to drive this good discussion in a different direction but I do want to stress the importance of buying your wheel from a reputable dealer (unless you are willing to take on the risks yourself). They will have your back when you need support, and we all know that you will need service & aftersales support for these vehicles. We should all reiterate this over and over again. The ones who "complain" the most are the buyers who a) do not research the product enough before buying and/or b) want to save a couple of bucks by ordering directly from china (ali/chickway/etc). If you tick either one of those boxes, you had better be mechanically inclined and be prepared to do your own service & repairs with the limited instructions that are available.

[mrelwood]

Discussing the level of capitalism in China or the current affairs of the EUC markets is interesting, but has absolutely nothing to do with the choices the OP has right now. Which is why this thread was started in the first place. @EUChristian, it doesn’t matter whether we or the OP accepts the state of affairs or not, the OP has two choices right now: Ship it back for warranty service or replace the faulty part oneself.
 

 Looking from the manufacturers point of view, the bearings they originally chose turned out to be incompatible for the intended usage. After just 1 or 2 bearings incidents they stopped the whole production line, and manually replaced the bearings for the units that hadn’t yet been shipped. Unfortunately the new bearings had a new issue, so they changed the motor supplier. All this time every customer with bearing (or other) issues has had the same options, ship back for repairs or replace the part oneself. They even ship the whole motor as a spare part since just the bearings are difficult to replace without special tools.

 If this is “unacceptable” and “zero QC”, what the hell are you expecting the manufacturer to do further, seriously??

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Discussing the level of capitalism in China or the current affairs of the EUC markets is interesting, but has absolutely nothing to do with the choices the OP has right now. Which is why this thread was started in the first place. @EUChristian, it doesn’t matter whether we or the OP accepts the state of affairs or not, the OP has two choices right now: Ship it back for warranty service or replace the faulty part oneself.
 

 Looking from the manufacturers point of view, the bearings they originally chose turned out to be incompatible for the intended usage. After just 1 or 2 bearings incidents they stopped the whole production line, and manually replaced the bearings for the units that hadn’t yet been shipped. Unfortunately the new bearings had a new issue, so they changed the motor supplier. All this time every customer with bearing (or other) issues has had the same options, ship back for repairs or replace the part oneself. They even ship the whole motor as a spare part since just the bearings are difficult to replace without special tools.

 If this is “unacceptable” and “zero QC”, what the hell are you expecting the manufacturer to do further, seriously??

Very well put. I think how Inmotion have handles this is the best possible in a unfortunate situation. People being unhappy with delays yet also unhappy when something did go as planed. 

This is why I hope to see more countries get national resellers. Or atleast easy and affordable pick up service to service hubs. 

The benafit of a pickup to regional service point would be faster more consistent service and cheaper supply of service parts (due to handling costs). It would also mean reseller that isn't mechanical could sell vheels and outsource the service to specialist. 

[Finn Bjerke]

Quote

 

 If this is “unacceptable” and “zero QC”, what the hell are you expecting the manufacturer to do further, seriously?? (Asks the honourable Mr Elwood) 

What Inmotion should do? Take the wheel back send me a new one, fix my old wheel using OK bearings and sell it for a fair price. 2000 USD is a lot of money. What I should do? never bloody ever be first mover on new tech from China, but suspension is not a new idea. Bearings? Someone adviced me to just pour oil into it, I was warned strongly against that.  Its not that easy.  Some of you ppl are very well informed I thank you for that, also I wonder where you get your info? just curious... 

Paraphrasing Mr Elwood from a different video: 

Quote

If you want 2 suspension wheels - it should probably be two V11ś  

I love the thing so much its double frustrating. 

Wow a lot of interesting debate and good advice here. USA and Finland have some clever folks. So logically it worries me when Marty and Wrongway  are doing things the wrongway so to speak.  Thx Mr Elwood for keeping the debate on track 
Thx for good help,  I also got them fancy hex original pedals from Inmotion (prob a bad copy of a better product, but hey its chinese)  So I have to learn how to operate some tech.  

[Ronin Ryder]

I understand OP, even if very negative. When you buy a wheel not everybody wants to turn into a car garagist and proceed to repair. Moreover after a few days of usage. My v11 is down for 2 weeks now since received it so im in the total same situation. Except that i have a local guy to manage this. Yet i still cant use a product i paid in full.... Qa sucks for these wheels and its a lottery when you receive them. It is what it is. Dont be too harsh with this guy. 

[Finn Bjerke]

How about a practical approach? I guess Inmotions video is the most relevant / best for my project:

1. Dry my eyes and grow up
2. Solve the problem at hand. 
3. Swap motors and Go to point 1. 

Time investment 6 hours me being clumsy? Thats very OK.  Money investment leave it to a local tech guy.... I live in a remote Island. Narh Techies here on Bonrholm are Aspergers .....  (sarcasm fro me so here comes INTERNET POLICE) 

So til here Im OK - But this looks like communist brain surgery to me I dont like it one bit:  I have to take the hat and the brain off (on the wheel that is) 

 

OFF  GOES THE  lamp hats too..... Easy but how about gettin em back in place so that plastic phatastic fits where it should? 

 

 

 

[Finn Bjerke]

Better film here: Thx again mate: 

 

[Bumblebees]

Good video.  That's a lot of work for a tire change.   

[mike_bike_kite]

18 minutes ago, Bumblebees said:

Good video.  That's a lot of work for a tire change.   

Maybe changing a tyre should be part of the video reviews of any new wheel? It would give potential new owners a chance to see the inside of wheels and get an idea of how complex potential maintenance might be. I'm currently waiting for a new wheel to be delivered and was idly watching a video for how to change the tyre on the Nik+ - I was actually quite impressed by how straightforward it all looked and certainly less than an hours work.

[GoGeorgeGo]

3 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

What Inmotion should do? Take the wheel back send me a new one, fix my old wheel using OK bearings and sell it for a fair price. 2000 USD is a lot of money. What I should do? never bloody ever be first mover on new tech from China, but suspension is not a new idea. Bearings? Someone adviced me to just pour oil into it, I was warned strongly against that.  Its not that easy.  Some of you ppl are very well informed I thank you for that, also I wonder where you get your info? just curious... 

Paraphrasing Mr Elwood from a different video: 

I love the thing so much its double frustrating. 

Wow a lot of interesting debate and good advice here. USA and Finland have some clever folks. So logically it worries me when Marty and Wrongway  are doing things the wrongway so to speak.  Thx Mr Elwood for keeping the debate on track 
Thx for good help,  I also got them fancy hex original pedals from Inmotion (prob a bad copy of a better product, but hey its chinese)  So I have to learn how to operate some tech.  

To be fair to the company, not only do they not have extra machines to replace yours with, but this is not some cheap electronic gadget that costs them 1.75$ to make.

Even if they had extra machines, they are not going to send you a brand new 2000$ machine to replace yours, they would go out of buisness.  They need to ship your wheel back AND ship a wheel to you AND repair the wheel AND sell the wheel again.  They would take a massive hit for every warranty repair.  

Like a car, once you buy it they are not going to swap you out a new one.  They will offer repair services.

Even microsoft didnt send out new xboxs to customers who suffered RRoD errors.  They offered repair services for their customers.  

Expecting a full wheel replacement is not realistic.  Especially when there is nothing in the warranty information about getting a new wheel.  It clearly states they only cover the drivetrain and you pay for shipping on warranty repairs

Edited December 4, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[EUChristian]

4 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

To be fair to the company, not only do they not have extra machines to replace yours with, but this is not some cheap electronic gadget that costs them 1.75$ to make.

Even if they had extra machines, they are not going to send you a brand new 2000$ machine to replace yours, they would go out of buisness.  They need to ship your wheel back AND ship a wheel to you AND repair the wheel AND sell the wheel again.  They would take a massive hit for every warranty repair.  

Like a car, once you buy it they are not going to swap you out a new one.  They will offer repair services.

Even microsoft didnt send out new xboxs to customers who suffered RRoD errors.  They offered repair services for their customers.  

Expecting a full wheel replacement is not realistic.  Especially when there is nothing in the warranty information about getting a new wheel.  It clearly states they only cover the drivetrain and you pay for shipping on warranty repairs

Had the wheel not busted in 2 weeks time they would not be shipping anything anywhere right?

This isn't some complex nuclear submarine control board for God's sakes its a bearing and if they did not run their 2k machine through a puddle prior to manufacturing 3000 units that is not the OPs fault. 

I'm saying I'm all for the current warranty process but there has to be some level of acceptable QC on expensive machines. If you are throwing a new bearing into 3000 units you test the bearing first. We can argue East vs West and Capitalism and Communism but this isn't some cultural mindset its how you run R&D. Period. 

[EUChristian]

4 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Maybe changing a tyre should be part of the video reviews of any new wheel? It would give potential new owners a chance to see the inside of wheels and get an idea of how complex potential maintenance might be. I'm currently waiting for a new wheel to be delivered and was idly watching a video for how to change the tyre on the Nik+ - I was actually quite impressed by how straightforward it all looked and certainly less than an hours work.

If this is how it works there should be a page on inmotions site that has YouTube videos showing exactly how to fix common issues and change a tire. Should all be in one place. Does that exist or are all the videos done by you tubers? I know Kingsong puts out videos but unsure on Inmotion. Kingsong posts them to Facebook which is unhelpful. Need to be on their site with links to troubleshooting- maybe this is the case and I'm not aware. Put it out there so new buyers realize the potential cost of buying new technology. 

 

[Unventor]

9 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Had the wheel not busted in 2 weeks time they would not be shipping anything anywhere right?

This isn't some complex nuclear submarine control board for God's sakes its a bearing and if they did not run their 2k machine through a puddle prior to manufacturing 3000 units that is not the OPs fault. 

I'm saying I'm all for the current warranty process but there has to be some level of acceptable QC on expensive machines. If you are throwing a new bearing into 3000 units you test the bearing first. We can argue East vs West and Capitalism and Communism but this isn't some cultural mindset its how you run R&D. Period. 

To claim no QC is very bold statement since we have no official failure rates. I am pretty sure Inmotion didn't intend this to happen as it cost a lot more to service. The motor section was designed by Inmotion but at actual build is made outsourced. Inmotion is not the first company to get caught out by a supplier that didn't deliver as promised. 

Just as a big example. Air bag recall in cars. It is not that they didn't test this. But there is a big difference between a preproduction to mass production level of a product. These things are complex. No matter how much testing you do something always seems to get cough out by surprise. 

I could list a ton of examples from my 25+ years dealing with IT sales and support of consumer electronics. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Unventor

[GoGeorgeGo]

5 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Had the wheel not busted in 2 weeks time they would not be shipping anything anywhere right?

This isn't some complex nuclear submarine control board for God's sakes its a bearing and if they did not run their 2k machine through a puddle prior to manufacturing 3000 units that is not the OPs fault. 

I'm saying I'm all for the current warranty process but there has to be some level of acceptable QC on expensive machines. If you are throwing a new bearing into 3000 units you test the bearing first. We can argue East vs West and Capitalism and Communism but this isn't some cultural mindset its how you run R&D. Period. 

You honestly think they didnt even test the bearing? Lol come on give then a little more credit than that.  This is a multi million dollar corporation making a HIGHLY sophisticated machine.  

Obviously they rushed whatever testing they did and it came back to bite them. This was an unexpected snag, they pivoted on the fly instead of continuing to send out the same problems to people.  I appreciate that they acted as fast as possible even if it was in vein.

Im not here to defend inmotion, but i do think accusations of no quality control and untested equipment are a little unfounded and unfair

For what its worth, im 650 km in on my v11 , no bearing issues so far (knock on wood) and i live in a wet region

Edited December 5, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[mike_bike_kite]

7 hours ago, EUChristian said:

If this is how it works there should be a page on inmotions site that has YouTube videos showing exactly how to fix common issues and change a tire. Should all be in one place. Does that exist or are all the videos done by you tubers? I know Kingsong puts out videos but unsure on Inmotion. Kingsong posts them to Facebook which is unhelpful. Need to be on their site with links to troubleshooting- maybe this is the case and I'm not aware. Put it out there so new buyers realize the potential cost of buying new technology. 

We could always set up a page here for each manufacturer with links to the best maintenance and troubleshooting videos. Obviously if the video comes from the manufacturer then you won't get much criticism of the wheel design.