EcoDrift's 2019 service statistics (failure rate by brand and model)

[trya]

Here is the translation of @EcoDrift's post on the Russian forum (https://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=60835.msg1806257)
I took a liberty of translating and re-posting here, as this might be a very valuable resource for forum users. 
See also "EcoDrift's 2018 service statistics (failure rate by brand and model)"  :  https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/12317-ecodrifts-2018-service-statistics-failure-rate-by-brand-and-model/

 

Summary:

 1. Failure rate. Only electrical and electronic issues are counted (flat tires, firmware failure and mechanical damages are not included). 
Failure rate is for units sold in 2019. The 2018 failure rate plus EcoDrift's comments are in parenthesis.

UPD: in square brackets - number of service records per model (probably very close to the number of repaired units).

Inmotion:
V5F - 7,1% (10,84%)  [25]
V8 - 5,78% (8,74%)  [41]
V10F - 11,39% (8,5%) [23]

Gotway:
MSuperX 84V - 13,81% [21]
MsuperX 100V - 18,18% [8]
MCM5 - 11,24% [19]
Tesla - 7,84% [4]
Nikola - 24% [12] (low sales, not enough statistics, has to be close to MSuperX)
Mten - 3,22% [1]
Monster - 22,22% [4]

Ninebot:
Z10 - 22,11% (19,15% stability rules) [24]

KingSong:
14M - 1,606% (5,04% ideal) [4]
14D, DS - 8,18% (6,77%) [10]
16S - 5,52% (8,11%) [22]
16X - 8,64% [8]
18L, XL - 9,73% (6,14%) [37]
 

2. Falure rate for controllers and hall sensors

Inmotion:
V5F - 5,02%
V8 - 2,45%
V10F - 7,23%

Gotway:
MSuperX 84V - 12,5%
MsuperX 100V - 15,909%
MCM5 - 10,05%
Tesla - 7,84%
Nikola - 24%
Mten - 3,22%
Monster - 22,22%

Ninebot:
Z10 - 20,19%

KingSong:
14M - 1,2%
14D, DS - 6,36%
16S - 4,47%
16X - 8,64%
18L, XL - 6,19%

3. Batteries and BMS

Inmotion:
V5F - 5,02%
V8 - 1,73%
V10F - 2,59%

Gotway:
MSuperX 84V - 1,31%
MsuperX 100V - 2,27%
MCM5 - 1,18%
Tesla - 0%
Nikola - 0%
Mten - 0%
Monster - 0%

Ninebot:
Z10 - 1,92%

KingSong:
14M - 0%
14D, DS - 0,9%
16S - 0,78%
16X -  0%
18L, XL - 0,88%

Final conclusions.

Inmotion: everything is stable. Variable rate can be attributed to imperfections of my statistics.
King Song: evrything is also within expected range, except 18L, XL also added a few percents to the rate. 14M - great rate, perfect replacement for 14B.
Ninebot: stable. Have nothing to add.
Gotway: very unstable numbers, everybody should make their own conclusions and whether these numbers have value.

Edited February 13, 2020 by trya

[Marty Backe]

Very interesting read. I sure wish we had access to the number of units per wheel otherwise I'm not sure how truly useful that data is - it's interesting though.

Anecdotally, I don't see anything near this level of failure, and I'm personally exposed to a lot of riders.

[trya]

6 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Very interesting read. I sure wish we had access to the number of units per wheel otherwise I'm not sure how truly useful that data is - it's interesting though.

Anecdotally, I don't see anything near this level of failure, and I'm personally exposed to a lot of riders.

@Marty Backe I added in the top post the number of serviced units (computed based on EcoDrift's service records) - it should give a better perspective.

[Tazarinho]

That would mean approximately the following amount of units were sold:

Inmotion:
V5F - 352
V8 - 709
V10F - 202

Gotway:
MSuperX 84V - 152
MsuperX 100V - 44
MCM5 - 169
Tesla - 51
Nikola - 50
Mten - 31
Monster - 18

Ninebot:
Z10 - 109

KingSong:
14M - 249
14D, DS - 122
16S - 399
16X - 93
18L, XL - 380

[Tazarinho]

Or

Inmotion: 1263

Gotway: 515

Ninebot: 109

KingSong: 1243

Which would seem to imply that less Gotways were bought than V8's!
At least in Russia.

[EvoKnvl]

Awesome info!  Thanks for that!  Guess I'm going to hold off on that Nikola+.  From what I've seen the fit and finish of the Nikola doesn't seem as nice as the KS to me.  Now to sacrifice a wheel to the EUC gods for KS to release a +30mph wheel.

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, EvoKnvl said:

Awesome info!  Thanks for that!  Guess I'm going to hold off on that Nikola+.  From what I've seen the fit and finish of the Nikola doesn't seem as nice as the KS to me.  Now to sacrifice a wheel to the EUC gods for KS to release a +30mph wheel.

It's never going to happen. It's part of KingSong's DNA to produce more conservative wheels. If you want to do a lot of high 20's and beyond riding, Gotway is the only game in town.

Do you own wheels for their fit and finish or for their riding quality and performance? Everyone is different of course, but for me, fit and finish is way down the list of criteria when buying a wheel.

As "heard/seen on the street", I don't see the Nikola as an unreliable wheel. Only the 84-volt version had some issues out of the gate. The 100-volt version has always been a solid wheel.

Don't get me wrong, I love my KS16X (and 18XL), but when you mention 30-mph, I have to say something 

[Seba]

25 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Do you own wheels for their fit and finish or for their riding quality and performance?

You're damn right. Today I've disassembled Ninebot One S2 for repair. Reason? Almost new wheel failed short after turning on - blown MOSFET. Wheel that was never ridden before, used only for software development. I just turned it on, motor wasn't blocked, no misuse history, handled with real care. BUT IT BLOWN ONE OF SIX MOSFETS JUST SECONDS FROM TURNING WHEEL ON...

When I disassembled this device, I was impressed by the quality and workmanship. Everything designed and made to the highest engineering standards, I could even say that King Song and Gotway should imitate Ninebot in this respect. And as a hardware developer I know what I say. But none of my King Song wheels ever failed and I often hear the same from Gotway users. And what about an apparently perfectly designed and built Ninebot? It failed just because I turned it on...

Finish or perceived quality doesn't mean that any particular wheel will be better than other.

[EvoKnvl]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

It's never going to happen. It's part of KingSong's DNA to produce more conservative wheels. If you want to do a lot of high 20's and beyond riding, Gotway is the only game in town.

Do you own wheels for their fit and finish or for their riding quality and performance? Everyone is different of course, but for me, fit and finish is way down the list of criteria when buying a wheel.

As "heard/seen on the street", I don't see the Nikola as an unreliable wheel. Only the 84-volt version had some issues out of the gate. The 100-volt version has always been a solid wheel.

Don't get me wrong, I love my KS16X (and 18XL), but when you mention 30-mph, I have to say something 

Marty, I know they won't. My comment was made in jest.  But I can always dream.   Getting a Nikola+ was something I recently considered.  I've been commuting to work on a "back" trail.  Single lane paved for bikes and pedestrians only.  It's away from cars and it's along the river.  It's quite nice and relaxing.  As I've been getting more comfortable with my 16x, I've been hitting the 28mph 3x beep that I placed.  And I feel like I'm always hitting those beeps now, but still feeling comfortable to go faster.  It's probably because my main commuter was my Dualtron Spider.  Now it just sits around for my friend or son to use when I want to go on a fun ride.

I was thinking about a Nikola Plus only because of the speed aspect, but at the end of the day, I've always been concerned about the build quality of the Gotway.  Other things like non-flashable firmware and the fact that there is a consistent "build" so that if something does go wrong, it can be difficult to get correct parts etc.  The random stuff I read hear always makes it sound like the Gotway Build quality just isn't as good as others.  This chart above only adds to it. Personally, I think the only reason we hear more complaints about the KS having problems is that the KS outsells Gotway (As indicated here and I think ewheels touched on it before.) More wheels of a specific brand = more voices to complain, but that doesn't necessarily mean higher defective rate.

As for build quality, I think it's a combination of everything.  Features, ride, and build quality are all factors I consider.  Price doesn't matter to me if I can get all 3 things.  For example, I wouldn't consider buying a Telsa car given the terrible build quality.  Poor paint quality and panel gaps are some of the things which put them off my list of potential cars to drive.  

So I'll just keep waiting for now.  Gotway might be the only game in town now, but maybe someone will come along as well.  Or maybe Gotway can improve (at least in my eyes) their build quality.  At that point, I'll  pick whatever wheel that might be.

 

[EvoKnvl]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

 

Finish or perceived quality doesn't mean that any particular wheel will be better than other.

Sorry, I should have clarified.  Fit and finish to me includes build quality.  Quality parts, reliability, how it's built.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, EvoKnvl said:

Marty, I know they won't. My comment was made in jest.  But I can always dream.   Getting a Nikola+ was something I recently considered.  I've been commuting to work on a "back" trail.  Single lane paved for bikes and pedestrians only.  It's away from cars and it's along the river.  It's quite nice and relaxing.  As I've been getting more comfortable with my 16x, I've been hitting the 28mph 3x beep that I placed.  And I feel like I'm always hitting those beeps now, but still feeling comfortable to go faster.  It's probably because my main commuter was my Dualtron Spider.  Now it just sits around for my friend or son to use when I want to go on a fun ride.

I was thinking about a Nikola Plus only because of the speed aspect, but at the end of the day, I've always been concerned about the build quality of the Gotway.  Other things like non-flashable firmware and the fact that there is a consistent "build" so that if something does go wrong, it can be difficult to get correct parts etc.  The random stuff I read hear always makes it sound like the Gotway Build quality just isn't as good as others.  This chart above only adds to it. Personally, I think the only reason we hear more complaints about the KS having problems is that the KS outsells Gotway (As indicated here and I think ewheels touched on it before.) More wheels of a specific brand = more voices to complain, but that doesn't necessarily mean higher defective rate.

As for build quality, I think it's a combination of everything.  Features, ride, and build quality are all factors I consider.  Price doesn't matter to me if I can get all 3 things.  For example, I wouldn't consider buying a Telsa car given the terrible build quality.  Poor paint quality and panel gaps are some of the things which put them off my list of potential cars to drive.  

So I'll just keep waiting for now.  Gotway might be the only game in town now, but maybe someone will come along as well.  Or maybe Gotway can improve (at least in my eyes) their build quality.  At that point, I'll  pick whatever wheel that might be.

 

Seeing that you own an MCM3, you probably know that Gotway's quality has vastly increased over the years. They still have a long ways to go though   But many people rides Gotway's so they can't be that awful, all things considered. Trust me, if I felt that I was risking life and limb every time I got on one of my Gotway wheels, I wouldn't own any. In all my years of riding a 16+ wheels I've never had a wheel failure that caused an injury, when not stress testing them.

[EvoKnvl]

43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Seeing that you own an MCM3, you probably know that Gotway's quality has vastly increased over the years. They still have a long ways to go though   But many people rides Gotway's so they can't be that awful, all things considered. Trust me, if I felt that I was risking life and limb every time I got on one of my Gotway wheels, I wouldn't own any. In all my years of riding a 16+ wheels I've never had a wheel failure that caused an injury, when not stress testing them.

No doubt.  I think at this point though, it doesn't make sense for me to have 2 of basically the same wheel.  One is faster, and the other one, imo, has better features.  For me, build quality is high on my list, so just adding more speed isn't enough to justify another wheel.  And I'm not willing to give up the features on the 16x.  I'm good with waiting for now, and seeing what comes out this year and in 2021.  Maybe someone can check all the boxes on my list and I'll pick it up then.

[Unventor]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Don't get me wrong, I love my KS16X (and 18XL), but when you mention 30-mph, I have to say something

I totally agree. If speed is your game GW is the way to go.

I would not choose KS16X that is for sure. But since I ride at 20-35ish kmh range the KS16X suits me just perfect. I love how it handles despite the "follow surface lines" tendency. My KS16X Service history, 1st batch: water entered and damaged power on/off. 

My KS18L 1st batch: lamp and trolly stems (twice) replacement, structure replacement after a 25ish kmh crash (cover attachment broken off) 

My V10f service history: wrong sized charge port mounted from factory, clost to impossible to change due to new water seal gluing both innerstructur together (cracked side panels trying to open wheel, my doing). 

Now it might be interesting to see what Inmotion has installed for 2020. They hinted the wheel coming up first has potential or they will try to get it to 35 mph. More importantl it has a (type of) suspension and is 18" with the widest tyre yet used my Inmotion so 2.5+". Hopefully more to specifics on this late April. 

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, EvoKnvl said:

Personally, I think the only reason we hear more complaints about the KS having problems is that the KS outsells Gotway (As indicated here and I think ewheels touched on it before.) More wheels of a specific brand = more voices to complain, but that doesn't necessarily mean higher defective rate.

Issues are generated by two major factors. Volume of units at risk aka sales. I think this is quite obviously. 

And launch policy. This might need a little explaining. Since GW don't do fw updates, they need wheels to be fine tuned before launch. Issues do show up and is corrected by new batch revision. 

KS have tried to match public demand that was not on their build lust or target group. That caused issues for KS16X. Since GW were a bit ahead I think KS rushed launch of KS16X that didn't help out. But as time progress it became clear that KS16X developed into a nice wheel with personality. But speed is just not what it is made for. As for personality some love it, some adapt and some simply dislike it. So where KS18L/XL were a safe do it all, the KS16X excel at some points and let's down (speed)  in other areas. That is why people cried out especially GW riders that are used to their GW wheels behaviour. 

Now the above is my personal opinion of how last summer 2019 transpired. 

[AtlasP]

 

On 2/13/2020 at 9:30 AM, Tazarinho said:

Which would seem to imply that less Gotways [of all kinds, combined] were bought than V8's!
At least in Russia.

The word on the street from multiple etailers has been saying this for years, not simply regarding Gotway but rather regarding InMotion in general.

The simple truth is that the combination of hitting a ~1k USD pricepoint + 16-24 mph speeds + 16" tire + sub-40lbs + solid trolley handle is a sweet spot for an entry-level short commuter wheel for most adults, which none of the other brands seem to understand. Their offerings anywhere close to that segment either lack one of the core features (too-small-diameter tire, poor trolley handle, etc) and/or are too expensive (by 30+%, $1350+). Until they learn this lesson they're going to continue getting fleeced by InMotion in precisely the largest market segment. (And it's not simply like InMotion is "the budget option" or something. Both King Song and Gotway have cheaper offerings well-under $1k and all along that spectrum--they just don't understand the right combination of tick boxes.)

Imagine a hypothetical KS16S refresh closer to $1k or a stripped-down 16" GW Tesla size with MCM-like specs bringing it closer to $1k. Those would be competitive to this largest market as well as building brand loyalty with those buyers who might eventually consider move up to their larger offerings.

Edited February 24, 2020 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

I think Russia is extra price sensitive. But we pretty much know that the V8 is the most sold wheel in Europe and the US, too. Though I'd guess that the wheel percentages tend notably more towards the high end here.

@Jason McNeil Any chance for some similar statistics from ewheels? Wheels sold, or at least percentages of sold wheels for the manufacturers and some models? Please

Edited February 14, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[scotchtape]

>10% failure rate is unbelievable... damn...

[Cody]

On 2/14/2020 at 6:42 AM, scotchtape said:

>10% failure rate is unbelievable... damn...

Yess sir, but pleas consider this is 100% brand new space rocket technoliogy, we are the firsts human to travel this way, it's normal, and when faillure occur, they make it better next time

[Daley1]

People do riding tests,talk about aesthetics,talk about performance but i dont see quality build tests.New wheels get released to ïnfluencers and then when things go wrong,we are told they are a pre-release model and that they should be fixed". Speedyfeets s18 review shows a piece of body fall off and an incessant rub".The 16x was released with a wobble until it was rectified down the track. I would love to see reviews that show the wheels torn down,the parts scrutinised and the build quality analysed .Ability/ease of the wheel being opened and ease of tyre change should be scrutinised.Then they should be rated by the suitably qualified.Unfortunately the people showcasing these models have financial/ ties to the manufacturer,s so have to be glowing in their reviews.

[.....]

@Daley1 I think the catch is that these people are being loaned a wheel. Those that buy them, may not be willing to risk $2k and warranty by opening them and seeing what fails first by rigorous testing. If I ever get one, the FIRST thing I will do is take it apart. Why... because I dont trust chinese quality control whatsoever. I dont know if it will void my warranty, but I also have little faith in that word anyhow. If you REALLY want to be sure about what you are getting, youll have to NOT be one of the first adopters, and wait for an idiot like myself, to throw caution to the wind and basically risk losing a useable wheel and lotsa $$. I think we (as consumers) are rolling the dice, as the euc companies are cheapening out on R&D. Yup, it costs a TON to rework something because of a few little niggles.

Edited June 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Tazarinho]

9 hours ago, Daley1 said:

I would love to see reviews that show the wheels torn down,the parts scrutinised and the build quality analysed .

That seems to be exactly what EcoDrift does.

[Daley1]

I must look at ecodrifts vids and yeah i,m not a first adopter as ive seen enough bad hardware and software that gets better in the second and third iterations. Ps where can i get a $2 k wheel? Ive got my eye on the 4000w V4 Monster and going to be up for $5K aud.

[RockyTop]

I studied the information and watched a few YouTube videos. My conclusion is that people that buy Gotway wheels tend to...... let us say... abuse them a bit. I don’t think they were designed to push cars, jump cannons or smash into stairs. The GotWay people are a bit crazy and tend to break things. “The Rowdy Clan” 

 

Example : The Volvo is not the safest car on the road because of the car. The numbers say they are safe  because safe people buy the car and drive safely. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by RockyTop

[Ben Kim]

This is precisely what I've noticed in terms of failure rate for Gotway 100V; general rule of thumb, 1% battery, <1% motor, 20% board.  Other parts such as USB ports, power buttons, LEDs, etc. in total are also around 20%.

[Daley1]

So people who buy Gotway are cerebrally bereft and Darwinian theory suggests that time will rid the earth of this mutant strand of humanity??

ps I want a monster!