Was a bigger wheel a mistake?

[shellac]

So I’ve been rocking an 84v mten3 for a couple months now. It’s my first wheel and it was really rough getting the hang of it  for a while at first but now I’m super confident on it. I can ride around at 20 mph, take turns at speed, ride backwards, hit some bumps and whatnot. It’s super fun and I’ve really had a blast with it. 

I had always planned to learn on the mten3 and then get a bigger wheel. Ultimately I decided to go with a z10 though I’ve been eyeing the suspension wheels. I’ve only had it for about two days, but man, it feels like I’ve gone from a sports car to a tank. It doesn’t have the same torque off the line and it’s not as agile. And of course it’s incredibly heavy, wide, and hard on the inside of my shins. 

I’m no longer sure why I got a bigger wheel in the first place. It seems like most here enjoy their 18” wheel and I was sort of following along with the hive mind. I can’t even imagine what a Monster or Sherman must be like  

Did I get the wrong wheel? Have I just not given it enough time and I’ll eventually come to enjoy it more then the mten3? Are bigger wheels even for me? Maybe I should have just been happy with my original wheel and saved the money. 

[.....]

Bro, just give it time. The mten is the most fun damn thing on the planet (almost), but bigger wheels also have their smooth joy. What you now own, is totally different ends of the spectrum.  I got a bigger wheel first and when i got a smaller wheel, I was REALLY frustrated I couldnt even mount the damn mten. I was confident that I CAN ride these damn things, as I was getting smoother on a bigger one already.

Just put your mind to it and try to remember how odd it was when you first got the mten. It won't take you two months to learn the z10 (epic choice btw!) You have a great pair of wheels and youll be able to use them for so many different AND overlapping moods/terrain. I ride both my mten and 18L all the time. Hell, sometimes I cant choose and I just grab one by coin flip. The great thing about having vastly different wheels is, n ot only the choice of type of ride, but the skillsets overlap somewhat. After practicing on my mten for a while, I find i have MUCH better slow speed ability on my larger wheel.

You DID NOT make a mistake. Remember, we are riding around on ONE FREAKING TIRE and some batteries. I still find joy in the thought.  I doubt youll enjoy one wheel much more than the other, as you will learn to enjoy them both for different reasons(I guess thats how the mormons do it too) .  If you find yourself in doubt, take a journey thru some  newbie videos of me being a wobbly idiot on the mten when i first got it. How odd that everyone seems so good at these aint it?  Its so funny, but you are facing the exact thing I did, only in reverse. Fwiw, I now find it easier to ride backwards and crawl and curb jump on the mten, tho I have WAY more miles on the 18L. Just recently after lots of mten practice, I managed to migrate that skill to the 18 a little. I dunno if it was skill or just 'big nuts' that the mten gave me, but don't fret as you will also come across the same advantage.

Keep your head up, dont be such a pussy!

Edited July 1, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[erk1024]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I doubt youll enjoy one wheel much more than the other, as you will learn to enjoy them both for different reasons

I'm with (on?) @ShanesPlanet on this one. This is why Marty has something like eight wheels. Each one is different and each is fun in a different way. 

The mTen is a blast to ride (so I hear) because it's so nimble. BUT that narrowish 10" wheel is not going to do well over road hazards. You feel every bump and crack, so you have to have an eagle eye on the road surface. And you wouldn't even consider taking it in loose dirt right? Are you really going to ride it at 23mph+? Yikes!

The Z10, with that big wide wheel, CAN ride through dirt and other terrain, and it's going to handle road hazards much better. So going at speed is going to be much more comfortable, not to mention safer. And the way you turn the Z10 is different (strong gyro effect) so that's going to take some time to figure out, but it'll be fun when you do.

(I have a Monster V3, and if you want cruise at 50kph you can't beat it. It's basically a motorcycle wheel under there.)

Check out @Marty Backe rocking the Z10 in sand. I wouldn't even try this on the Nikola!

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by erk1024

[null]

You’ll get used to it, feels comfy, powerfull and safe once you know to throw it around. The Z10 is especially hard to turn compared to other large wheels though, the right balance seem to be 3inch tyres. Z10 owners seem to mostly love theirs though, so it will probably grow on you.

Edited July 1, 2020 by null

[Planemo]

you will soon find you can ride at 00000.1mph on the Z without wobbling  it will be a revalation compared to the mten.

but yes you do have to get used to its handling at anything above 10mph. I went on mine not long ago after riding my msx for some time and I really, and I mean really struggled to corner the Z and I was wobbling all over the place. I couldnt believe how badly I rode it, considering I had pretty much nailed how to ride the Z at all speeds prior to getting the msx. Once you are at one with the Z though its an amazing wheel to ride. I do take my hat off to people that can switch in and out of Z mode though, kudos!

 

[ir_fuel]

20mph on an Mten3. That's pretty fast  

I have those wheels and I understand the analogy. I'm just the opposite, I ride the big ones, and if from time to time i take the Mten3 it takes a bit of time getting used to how nervous it is.

[Skecys]

Like @ShanesPlanet says, just give it time. I think the fact you went for a Z10 will add to this. It is probably one of the most "tanky" wheels out there. It is also a harsher ride since it has no inner tube, so you don't get the immediate benefit of a larger tire (comfortable and cushy). Keep riding that beast, I'm sure you will come around to it .

[Circuitmage]

Wait...I didn't see anything about the biometrics of the poster. 

Are you 4'2" tall and weigh 75 lbs? Then yeah...that wheel may be too big for you.

 

[PennBruce]

8 hours ago, Skecys said:

It is also a harsher ride since it has no inner tube...

Did not know that.  Maybe that's why I didn't like the MTen3.

Bruce

[.....]

25 minutes ago, PennBruce said:

Did not know that.  Maybe that's why I didn't like the MTen3.

Bruce

I'm not exactly sure of the validity of tube vs tubeless, having anything to do with how soft a ride is.... definitely news to me. My mten can get rock hard or squishy like play doh. Same as my tubed 18L. You didnt like the mten because you must be some oddity of nature... I LOVE mine, ride it everyday to the mailbox. Walking 100' is too much trouble anymore.

Edited July 1, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Gasmantle]

I don't want to derail this thread but I'm curious about this tube vs tubeless thing as I'm planning to buy a Mten3 in a few days.

Do tubeless tyres lose their pressure over time, how well do they cope if you hit a sudden obstruction ?

 

[RetroThruster]

You'll learn the advantages/disadvantages of the Z10 on your own, if it's not for you, sell it off and try something else.  I'm personally itching to try an MCM5:)

[PennBruce]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 You didnt like the mten because you must be some oddity of nature... 

I am an "oddity of nature".

Bruce

[PennBruce]

1 hour ago, Gasmantle said:

Do tubeless tyres lose their pressure over time, how well do they cope if you hit a sudden obstruction ?

IMHO, if you hit an obstacle (pothole) hard enough to break the tire/wheel seal you probably won't survive.

Bruce

[Gasmantle]

Thanks, I want a Mten3 for short runs at fairly low speed but wondered how well the tyre copes.

From what I have heard from other members it seems like even 20 mph is very fast on a small wheel.

[travsformation]

Even switching from an IM V8 to a KS18XL felt like learning to ride again, @shellac. Many of the dynamics I took for granted had to be tweaked, adjusted or relearned entirely. But give it time and you'll adjust. Also, be patient, the Z10 isn't for everyone and is notorious for being a love it or hate it because it's turning dynamics are different from all other wheels. 

Once you get the hang of it you'll love it though! 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[shellac]

20 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You DID NOT make a mistake. Remember, we are riding around on ONE FREAKING TIRE and some batteries. I still find joy in the thought.  I doubt youll enjoy one wheel much more than the other, as you will learn to enjoy them both for different reasons(I guess thats how the mormons do it too) .  If you find yourself in doubt, take a journey thru some  newbie videos of me being a wobbly idiot on the mten when i first got it. How odd that everyone seems so good at these aint it?  Its so funny, but you are facing the exact thing I did, only in reverse. Fwiw, I now find it easier to ride backwards and crawl and curb jump on the mten, tho I have WAY more miles on the 18L. Just recently after lots of mten practice, I managed to migrate that skill to the 18 a little. I dunno if it was skill or just 'big nuts' that the mten gave me, but don't fret as you will also come across the same advantage.

Yeah thanks man, I'm keeping at it and I think you're right, I'll come to enjoy the wheel. Familiar with your channel, saw you mten3 videos when I was researching eucs. We definitely need more riders from the Dirty South, can't let west coast and Northeast dominate.

15 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

20mph on an Mten3. That's pretty fast  

I have those wheels and I understand the analogy. I'm just the opposite, I ride the big ones, and if from time to time i take the Mten3 it takes a bit of time getting used to how nervous it is.

Yeah I mean to be fair I'll only go that fast on the mten3 if it's a straight patch of road that I'm well familiar with and I know to be pothole free. I definitely feel more stable on the Z10 at that speed. I suppose that answers my questions as to the advantages of this wheel.

One thing about the Z10 I don't like is the pedals feel a bit slippery compared to the ACM pedals on my mten3. I guess its because of the rubber feet. I may take those out and grip tape it like how I see @Rehab1 did on an old post.

Do you have any advice on turning the Z10 at speed? I'm guess you just lean hard into it with your shin during the turn.

 

4 hours ago, Circuitmage said:

Wait...I didn't see anything about the biometrics of the poster. 

Are you 4'2" tall and weigh 75 lbs? Then yeah...that wheel may be too big for you.

 

About 5'6", 165 lbs, which is above my fighting weight, planning to lose a bit of it.

 

[shellac]

3 hours ago, RetroThruster said:

You'll learn the advantages/disadvantages of the Z10 on your own, if it's not for you, sell it off and try something else.  I'm personally itching to try an MCM5:)

Yeah I've been curious about that wheel. Seems to be an in between wheel sizewise which maintains good torque. Tire seems narrow though but I see there might be a V2 of the wheel with a wider tire coming maybe.

You're right though, I can always sell this wheel if its not for me.

[Planemo]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'm not exactly sure of the validity of tube vs tubeless, having anything to do with how soft a ride is.... definitely news to me. My mten can get rock hard or squishy like play doh. Same as my tubed 18L.

The difference with tubeless tyres (as you know, being an ex tyre guy is that they usually have a much thicker carcass which includes the sidewalls. The Z10 fits into this category. To compound this it also has very little sidewall to speak of (extremely low profile) which removes any ability for the tyre wall to 'give' unlike say an msx which has a very tall sidewall. As such, you can still ride a Z10 down to 5psi and not be running on the rim. I used to run 15psi. So on a Z, basically all your compliance comes from flexing the tread section of the tyre, not the sidewall. This isn't ideal as you can imagine, as at low pressures it leaves you with a very big footprint which whilst great on sand/mud, makes cornering 'interesting'. You can of course run a Z at 32psi as some do, but I can tell you now it is a rock hard ride, you will lose fillings and skit over the smallest of surface imperfections.

Maybe the mten is slightly unique in that it uses a 'thin carcass tubeless tyre'. I guess it all depends on whats available. For sure, a Z tyre is stout though. An unmounted msx tyre is pretty 'floppy' whereas a Z tyre is virtually solid like a motorbike tyre. In some ways I wish Ninebot had sourced a thinner carcassed, higher sidewalled 4" tyre and ran it tubed, I think it would have made for a completely different ride. That said, because of what it is, the Z can be a super fun wheel but as has been said, it needs a lot of physical effort (moving of body/legs) to hustle at speed and rides like nothing else. When I went straight to the MSX I couldn't believe how 'easy' it was to ride at speed. By this I mean totally 'neutral'.

 

[.....]

@Planemo You make valid and a very good point. I do think you are explaining the difference in how a tire is made, not necessarily if it has a tube or not. Some of these cheapo tubeless tires ARE made with better carcasses. Some are most likely not. It's not that I disagree with you, i think that perhaps we are just confusing the actual intent of my blanket statement. Probably a gross generalization and again, you are also correct.

[Liv2xplore]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:15 AM, Planemo said:

you will soon find you can ride at 00000.1mph on the Z without wobbling  it will be a revalation compared to the mten.

but yes you do have to get used to its handling at anything above 10mph. I went on mine not long ago after riding my msx for some time and I really, and I mean really struggled to corner the Z and I was wobbling all over the place. I couldnt believe how badly I rode it, considering I had pretty much nailed how to ride the Z at all speeds prior to getting the msx. Once you are at one with the Z though its an amazing wheel to ride. I do take my hat off to people that can switch in and out of Z mode though, kudos!

 

I love that phrase Z mode! Just had my first ride on my Z10 and it is definitely a different animal

[seage]

Haha, like everyone said, give it time. 2 days is nothing. Im currently upgrading from an 18XL to a monster, and i expect i'll have no idea how to corner properly for a few days, lmao. Then I need to learn to ride seated. Then learn to carve seated. Theres a lot to get used to. The weight and size and style of torque will all be unfamiliar and i'll need to work on all of thatover the course of a good while before im confident. 2 days will not even be close. Its only scary for you because these wheels are expensive, and so losing that sense of familiarity is frightening. Not being able to get it right away throws your mind into instant regret, but yes, give it a few more miles and you'll start to see if its really not for you or if you just needed to get used to it. I've heard a lot of riders dont ride hard on their new wheels until after their first 100 miles just so they can get used to it and its dynamics. 

Last thing is, every wheel is good and bad at something. You need to find out what this wheels advantages are and ride it for those reasons, and when you know your mten is gonna excel instead, you grab that. 

[Steef Klonoa]

@shellac Turning the Z10 at speed, sometimes I like to go on the ball of my inside foot. You don't need to press hard against the shell to get it to turn, just lean. Z10 is every bit a sports car of an EUC!

[AtlasP]

@shellac Ultimately there is a spectrum of wheel sizes and riding characteristics, and unfortunately you went from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other (or close to it) all at once. Compounding that, the Z10 has some very unique riding quirks due to the 4.1"-wide tire which makes it very polarizing even among very experienced riders--who either love it or hate it. You may eventually learn to love the Z10, or if not it just means you should explore some of the mid-size wheels or even just other large wheels that don't have the Z10's 4.1"-wide tire.

Edited July 5, 2020 by AtlasP