My KS16X Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Marty Backe]

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Looks like the 16X, like the Nikola, is the perfect candidate for those motorcycle tank protector grip mats to replace the thin pads:

This post has an Amazon link to a pre-cut, lower cost alternative. Maybe it works for the 16X too. Or you have to cut the right shape from the expensive rectangular mats.

[meepmeepmayer]

• The pedals tilting back in curves might be fixed by a calibration just like the dipping. Seems to be the same thing. Or does it feel intentional?
• 6+1 speakers and you're disappointed with them? That is... unexpected.
• That was a nice tour Does the camera make the slopes next to the path appear steeper? Because they look mighty steep. Maybe it's your new higher field of view?

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

• The pedals tilting back in curves might be fixed by a calibration just like the dipping. Seems to be the same thing. Or does it feel intentional?
• 6+1 speakers and you're disappointed with them? That is... unexpected.
• That was a nice tour Does the camera make the slopes next to the path appear steeper? Because they look mighty steep. Maybe it's your new higher field of view?

I don't think the slopes look steeper. They're pretty steep - like your wheel will fall hundreds of feet if you were to lose control.

I've calibrated the wheel multiple times. Feels intentional to me. Waiting to see if any other 16X owners chime in.

The speakers may be loud, but they are a big disappointment.

[ir_fuel]

IMO speakers are overrated. They should just be there to communicate with the rider. If you want music there are a lot better solutions. EUC companies have other stuff to sort out before worrying about subwoofers and whatnot. I don't think they sound that much better than the simple setup in my Z10. Waste of engineering resources.

I don't recall having those tilting issues when cornering, but then again, it's hard to compare as we all ride differently and maybe you just corner a lot faster.

If you want to replace the pads I think thicker ones are also needed. For me it's physically impossible to clamp the wheel with my legs (but I have O legs  ). 

[UniVehje]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Feels intentional to me. Waiting to see if any other 16X owners chime in.

I've not yet tested the 16X so I don't know if that behaviour is done well on it. But it is intentional and I like it. Inmotion does it extremely well and 18XL added it on the latest firmware. 

The idea is to eliminate the feeling of pedals dipping in or after sharp turns. It's one of those things you have to get used to. I've ridden mostly on wheels that have it and for me the normal Gotway (or others without it) behaviour feels worse. Give it some time and you might like it. Or not. But there are other riders who prefer it and don't like the ride without it. Of course it could be that it's not yet perfected on the 16X. 

And BTW, nice video on first impressions. I'm personally not buying 16X or Nikola but it's rather interesting to follow the reactions. I got to test the Nikola briefly yesterday and felt a strong gyro effect that I didn't like. So probably wouldn't like the 16X either. 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

EUC companies have other stuff to sort out before worrying about subwoofers and whatnot.

Yesss.

 

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

 I don't think they sound that much better than the simple setup in my Z10. Waste of engineering resources.

Interesting. I would have thought that the 16X 6+1 speaker setup would be infinately better than the single tiny one on the Z. I must admit I am amazed how well the Z does though, both in volume and sound quality given its a hidden, non ported 1.5" speaker.

[ir_fuel]

17 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Interesting. I would have thought that the 16X 6+1 speaker setup would be infinately better than the single tiny one on the Z. I must admit I am amazed how well the Z does though, both in volume and sound quality given its a hidden, non ported 1.5" speaker.

Yes, but add on top of that the fact that you are riding in the wind, even at slower speeds, and a lot of that difference will simply wash away.

I mean: they put the "woofer" on the back of the device. Now what's the practical use of that, unless you are listening to your music at standstill. The sound waves travel opposite to the travel direction. Is it to entertain the person behind you?

[ir_fuel]

Then again, I'm no fan of music speakers. Keep the noise pollution to yourself and use something that's either a lot closer to your ears so you can turn down the volume, or use some kind of headphones that still allow you to hear traffic.

It isn't really progress if we all switch from noisy cars to silent electrical transport, only to have everyone play different music through their transportation device. If anything it will make noise pollution worse than it was/is. Not everyone likes the same kind of music.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, UniVehje said:

The idea is to eliminate the feeling of pedals dipping in or after sharp turns.

Are you sure? Because the dipping shouldn't happen in the first place. Gotways don't dip (if properly calibrated) and I thought Kingsongs wouldn't, too. Apparently they are expected to dip and if they happen not to, you get tiltback in curves instead of level pedals?

[UniVehje]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Are you sure? Because the dipping shouldn't happen in the first place. Gotways don't dip (if properly calibrated) and I thought Kingsongs wouldn't, too. Apparently they are expected to dip and if they happen not to, you get tiltback in curves instead of level pedals?

I'm not completely sure. But I've read that there can be some dipping of the pedals when turning. This is mild and most riders are used to it. It doesn't mean proper dipping, more a feature of EUCs when turning. The tiltback Marty felt could be just because he's used to normal behaviour and he was expecting something else from the pedals. I think it's a matter of taste. And could be just a bug. But there absolutely is this kind of behaviour on purpose. 

Here's a text from Inmotion USA: 

 

Quote

 

Turning and Forwarding Adjustment 

This setting is actually more like a calibration than an adjustment. If you've ridden many different electric unicycles, you've probably noticed a common issue they can have: when turning the pedals can tilt forward. Depending on the severity, it can cause anything from mild annoyance to dangerous pedal scraping. InMotion has always done a great job at controlling this, most notably on the V8 / Solowheel Glide 3. However, with this setting, users have the ability to reset the calibration that affects pedal angle while turning should they ever notice this issue cropping up.

 

Also in the 18L/XL latest firmware notes this is mentioned. I noticed the change on my 18XL and it now feels similar to the V10F. I've seen many comments here from people wondering about pedals tilting when turning and I thought this feature was just a way to make it feel like the pedals stay level. This is very difficult for me to explain and I'm sure you never feel the tilting. You really have to ride something like V10 and concentrate on the behaviour and get used to it and then test a wheel with different behaviour. 

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

49 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I'm not completely sure. But I've read that there can be some dipping of the pedals when turning. This is mild and most riders are used to it. It doesn't mean proper dipping, more a feature of EUCs when turning.

I'm 99.99999% convinced any dipping is unintentional and the "It's a feature, not a bug!" is just BS from the manufacturers to hide the shortcomings of the tilt sensor which is too easily thrown off when not perfectly calibrated. Gotway seems to have found a reliable workaround to the problem long ago. KS and IM don't seem to have done that yet. The fact that the Inmotion text says it's "controlling" this behavior is telling . The manufacturers have always been deliberately vague about this and never flat out confirmed or denied that the dipping is intentional. That's so telling.

But I haven't ridden any Kingsongs with this behavior, so...

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

IMO speakers are overrated. They should just be there to communicate with the rider. If you want music there are a lot better solutions. EUC companies have other stuff to sort out before worrying about subwoofers and whatnot. I don't think they sound that much better than the simple setup in my Z10. Waste of engineering resources.

I don't recall having those tilting issues when cornering, but then again, it's hard to compare as we all ride differently and maybe you just corner a lot faster.

If you want to replace the pads I think thicker ones are also needed. For me it's physically impossible to clamp the wheel with my legs (but I have O legs  ). 

 

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Then again, I'm no fan of music speakers. Keep the noise pollution to yourself and use something that's either a lot closer to your ears so you can turn down the volume, or use some kind of headphones that still allow you to hear traffic.

It isn't really progress if we all switch from noisy cars to silent electrical transport, only to have everyone play different music through their transportation device. If anything it will make noise pollution worse than it was/is. Not everyone likes the same kind of music.

 

I use speakers in two scenarios:

1. When I'm traveling to a location and I need directions I used Google Maps. She will give me directions through the speakers (turn left in 600-feet, etc.) so I don't have to look at my phone. It works really well.
2. I will listen to music when I'm riding in a remote area (no people) or on a mountain road, etc. that only has me and periodic traffic. I'm not disturbing anyone.

The Nikola has the best speakers yet for this because they are very loud so you can finally hear the music above all the wind noise.

[Marty Backe]

14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

• The pedals tilting back in curves might be fixed by a calibration just like the dipping. Seems to be the same thing. Or does it feel intentional?
• 6+1 speakers and you're disappointed with them? That is... unexpected.
• That was a nice tour Does the camera make the slopes next to the path appear steeper? Because they look mighty steep. Maybe it's your new higher field of view?

Did you happen to see one of Speedyfeet's recent videos where he also said that the Nikola had much better speakers than the 16X? It's not just me.

[stephen]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Did you happen to see one of Speedyfeet's recent videos where he also said that the Nikola had much better speakers than the 16X? It's not just me.

The 16x speakers are loud and have to much base so it sounds boomy ,i turn the base down in my phone when playing music it's alot better but it is loud

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Did you happen to see one of Speedyfeet's recent videos where he also said that the Nikola had much better speakers than the 16X? It's not just me.

I'm never doubted your results. Just not what I expected

They have SEVEN speakers in the 16X, 3 on each side and the subwoofer behind that grate. How are they not far superior to all other EUC speakers?

[Marty Backe]

15 minutes ago, stephen said:

The 16x speakers are loud and have to much base so it sounds boomy ,i turn the base down in my phone when playing music it's alot better but it is loud

I'll experiment with adjusting the base on my phone. They are loud, but maybe you've never heard the Nikola sound system?   My comments on the 16X sound were relative to the Nikola.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm never doubted your results. Just not what I expected

They have SEVEN speakers in the 16X, 3 on each side and the subwoofer behind that grate. How are they not far superior to all other EUC speakers?

Do we know the quality of the speakers or the electronics that are driving them. I tell you, the Nikola speakers are impressive.

Maybe the 16X sounds superior when listening in a room. But when you're riding with the wind in your hair it sounds inferior to the Nikola.

[Slashebeest]

38 minutes ago, stephen said:

The 16x speakers are loud and have to much base so it sounds boomy ,i turn the base down in my phone when playing music it's alot better but it is loud

Same here, I have a preset named 16x for my equalizer. 

 

But just like ir fuel I don't like polluting my surroundings with loud music.

 

I use my pebble for Google maps. 

[Unventor]

17 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

You are entitled to your opinion. But a few things you are not right on this video. 

Speed unlock: 10km you can unlock 50kmh. 

As for the pads, yes agree they are not made for gripping. I do have one tip for you that I think looks cool. 

It will feel a little cousin effect and the fabric is grippy but not too much. 

I can also say, for every 100km done, I get more attuned to the wheel. It also feels like the tire soften up as you ride it more. Today I am at 345km and it is 3 weeks since I got it. 

As for the lift sensor it is digital switch. So no calibration needed. 

As for speaker, you might need to turn up volume in the KS app as well as phone volume. Seems silly at first, but it means you can set a wheel volume for when you don't connect by phone. Like start up voice BT connected sound or USB memory sticks music I guess. 

And a few more fine tuning in firmware, things might look a little different. 

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Unventor said:

You are entitled to your opinion. But a few things you are not right on this video. 

Speed unlock: 10km you can unlock 50kmh. 

As for the pads, yes agree they are not made for gripping. I do have one tip for you that I think looks cool. 

It will feel a little cousin effect and the fabric is grippy but not too much. 

I can also say, for every 100km done, I get more attuned to the wheel. It also feels like the tire soften up as you ride it more. Today I am at 345km and it is 3 weeks since I got it. 

As for the lift sensor it is digital switch. So no calibration needed. 

As for speaker, you might need to turn up volume in the KS app as well as phone volume. Seems silly at first, but it means you can set a wheel volume for when you don't connect by phone. Like start up voice BT connected sound or USB memory sticks music I guess. 

And a few more fine tuning in firmware, things might look a little different. 

Yes, other people have already corrected me regards the speedlock.

This video is my "Initial Impressions". Of course my opinion can change.

I'm not currently inclined to put a wrapper on my 16X because then it no longer looks like a 16X.

Thanks for the reminder about the separate KS app volume control. But I will say that it sounded loud enough, but muffled compared to the clearer sounding Nikola, KS18XL, KS14S sound. But I'll experiment more.

[AtlasP]

@Marty Backe - Since you've already stated your opinion of the KS16X versus the Nikola (and for that matter of the Nikola in comparison to all other wheels), I'm more interested in your comparison of the KS16X to mainly the KS18XL and also the MSX 84V. (Leaving out the 100V wheels because they're in a class of their own.) Like how would you rank these three (mainly for road riding): KS16X, KS18XL, MSX 84V? Would the KS16X still beat the prior two front-runners, and just not as good as Nikola? Or is it actually intermixed with or below those two prior front-runners?

Edited September 23, 2019 by AtlasP

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

@Marty Backe - Since you've already stated your opinion of the KS16X versus the Nikola (and for that matter of the Nikola in comparison to all other wheels), I'm more interested in your comparison of the KS16X to mainly the KS18XL and also the MSX 84V. (Leaving out the 100V wheels because they're in a class of their own.) Like how would you rank these three (mainly for road riding): KS16X, KS18XL, MSX 84V? Would the KS16X still beat the prior two front-runners, and just not as good as Nikola? Or is it actually intermixed with or below those two prior front-runners?

I can answer the 16X vs 18L/XL. The 16X is more nimble, both maneuvering and acceleration and breaking. But if you are looking for long distance at top speed cruising wheel the 18XL is the way to go. 

The 16X took me some getting used to, but I find it a more rewarding and fun ride but I rarely go faster than 40kmh, my sweet spot is around 30kmh speed. 

I have 2800km on 18L and 320km on 16X. 

The new digital lift sensor is just a dream. Have never failed yet. Uses it several times a day. But new 18L/XL should have this too now. 

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, AtlasP said:

@Marty Backe - Since you've already stated your opinion of the KS16X versus the Nikola (and for that matter of the Nikola in comparison to all other wheels), I'm more interested in your comparison of the KS16X to mainly the KS18XL and also the MSX 84V. (Leaving out the 100V wheels because they're in a class of their own.) Like how would you rank these three (mainly for road riding): KS16X, KS18XL, MSX 84V? Would the KS16X still beat the prior two front-runners, and just not as good as Nikola? Or is it actually intermixed with or below those two prior front-runners?

I'm hesitant to compare the 16X to different class wheels. It's kind of like comparing a truck to a car. They serve different purposes.

If you're looking for a general purpose wheel I've always recommended 16-inch versions. It hits the sweet spot for tackling most riding conditions.

The 16X will always be a more nimble and faster accelerating wheel than any 18-inch wheel, including the 18XL and MSX. But the 18-inch wheels (in particular the MSX) will always be better for cruising and rough trail riding.