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MSX customizations-sharewhat you’ve done

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19 minutes ago, chulander said:

Thanks for the tips, what do u mean by “use the size of the screw core”?

yLYkE.gif

For drilling the holes, you need a drill bit that is the size of the screw’s core.

Slightly bigger than the core is ok too, as long as it’s smaller than the screw thread.

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14 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

yLYkE.gif

For drilling the holes, you need a drill bit that is the size of the screw’s core.

Slightly bigger than the core is ok too, as long as it’s smaller than the screw thread.

Awesome. This illustration is very helpful. I get it now. Thank you

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The idea of a tubeless MSX tire had been haunting on me for a good while, so I finally took the plunge. I had ordered a tubeless valve, removed the tire and he tube, drilled the valve hole to fit the tubeless one, smoothed the hole edges, fitted the valve, lined the inside of the tire with Goop (British for Slime), and fitted the tire on.

That’s when all hell broke loose. The tire is so loose and/or the rim bead so narrow, that a regular track pump had no business in trying to seat and pressurise the tire. I should’ve packed the wheel up right away and taken a trip to a gas station. A compressor should’ve gotten the job done right away. But I was in a stubborn fight mode, so I fought. And fought. And finally got it to seat!

Which is when I realized that I should’ve put in the rest of the Goop first. So, pressure off again, Goop in, and again the fight, round 2. Which was even harder this time. I literally spent the whole day doing this, and 80% of the time I was just trying to make the tire seat on the rim.

Anyway. Finally it seated (again), so I took a shower, ate, and went for a short ride. Yesterday I took a long ride and varied the tire pressure a bit. Conclusions:

  • The wheel now bounces less at curbs and bumps. Especially sharp ones decreased quite nicely.
  • The rolling resistance is noticeably smaller. This surprised me. At 2.5 bars the tire rolls and the wheel accelerates as if it had 2.8 bars with a tube. It even seems as if the mileage got better. Will be monitoring that more closely.

All in all it seems like a good mod, and has advantages. They are not huge, but at my riding pressures/locations/weight/style, they are noticeable, and I like it.

Would I recommend this for others? Only if you have access to a compressor! The mod itself is just as simple and easy as replacing the tire. Just make sure you have a right drill bit to fit the tubeless valve (11-13mm depending on the valve). Also note that the MSX rim is quite thick, so a valve with a tightening nut might not fit.

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3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The idea of a tubeless MSX tire had been haunting on me for a good while, so I finally took the plunge. I had ordered a tubeless valve, removed the tire and he tube, drilled the valve hole to fit the tubeless one, smoothed the hole edges, fitted the valve, lined the inside of the tire with Goop (British for Slime), and fitted the tire on.

That’s when all hell broke loose. The tire is so loose and/or the rim bead so narrow, that a regular track pump had no business in trying to seat and pressurise the tire. I should’ve packed the wheel up right away and taken a trip to a gas station. A compressor should’ve gotten the job done right away. But I was in a stubborn fight mode, so I fought. And fought. And finally got it to seat!

Which is when I realized that I should’ve put in the rest of the Goop first. So, pressure off again, Goop in, and again the fight, round 2. Which was even harder this time. I literally spent the whole day doing this, and 80% of the time I was just trying to make the tire seat on the rim.

Anyway. Finally it seated (again), so I took a shower, ate, and went for a short ride. Yesterday I took a long ride and varied the tire pressure a bit. Conclusions:

  • The wheel now bounces less at curbs and bumps. Especially sharp ones decreased quite nicely.
  • The rolling resistance is noticeably smaller. This surprised me. At 2.5 bars the tire rolls and the wheel accelerates as if it had 2.8 bars with a tube. It even seems as if the mileage got better. Will be monitoring that more closely.

All in all it seems like a good mod, and has advantages. They are not huge, but at my riding pressures/locations/weight/style, they are noticeable, and I like it.

Would I recommend this for others? Only if you have access to a compressor! The mod itself is just as simple and easy as replacing the tire. Just make sure you have a right drill bit to fit the tubeless valve (11-13mm depending on the valve). Also note that the MSX rim is quite thick, so a valve with a tightening nut might not fit.

Very interesting. I may have missed an earlier post. Did you purchase a tubeless tire or are you using the stock tire?

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4 hours ago, chulander said:

Thanks for the tips, what do u mean by “use the size of the screw core”? I’m quite illiterate with tools like grandparents with a computer

 

thanks again

The size of the drill bit should be the size of the screw core. So as to not drill too large a hole. Or too small.

 

Edit: Oops I missed the updates on the page as I hadn't refreshed and just opened the computer upon waking up.
Sorry for the redundant information regarding the core as it has already been solved.

image.png.93b361d5bbea5c1c66c2ea405e1198ba.png

Edited by Mike Sacristan
Missed all the updates

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Very interesting. I may have missed an earlier post. Did you purchase a tubeless tire or are you using the stock tire?

I replaced the stock tire after 5000km with a Chaoyang H-666 18x3”, and wrote my first impressions a few pages back:

The H-666 is not meant for tubeless use, but with a bottle of Goop in hand I decided to be adventurous. So far the pressure is holding, but it’s only been a few days.

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7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I replaced the stock tire after 5000km with a Chaoyang H-666 18x3”, and wrote my first impressions a few pages back:

The H-666 is not meant for tubeless use, but with a bottle of Goop in hand I decided to be adventurous. So far the pressure is holding, but it’s only been a few days.

Thanks. I'll read your post. After successfully converting my Mten3 I feel confident that I could do any bigger tire. Not sure I will, but please do post any updates over time as to how the tire is working.

With tubeless tires you can ride with much lower tire pressures. Is that possible with your conversion or is it necessary to maintain a higher pressure due to the weaker sidewalls of you non-tubeless tire?

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Was it a ratchet strap that finally got your Mten tire to seat and hold air? I think I better get myself one as well.

The MiniPro tires (11x3.5”) were very easy to seat, since the small diameter makes the tire hold it’s shape very well without any pressure. An 18x3” is a totally different animal in that regard.

Quote

With tubeless tires you can ride with much lower tire pressures. Is that possible with your conversion or is it necessary to maintain a higher pressure due to the weaker sidewalls of you non-tubeless tire?

I’m sure it would be possible, as once the tire beads sit on the rim properly, it seals even after a just a single movement of the pump. I perhaps wouldn’t risk it down to @Mike Sacristan levels (15 psi / 1bar), but then again I wouldn’t do that for my riding with the tube either.

The key improvements to me are increased comfort, decreased bounciness, and decreased rolling resistance at my usual pressure of 2.5bars (38psi). Lower pressure makes idling on pavement difficult, tubeless or not, as twisting at zero speed becomes a lot more laborous.

 

Edited by mrelwood

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On 6/14/2019 at 4:03 AM, chulander said:

Thanks for the tips, what do u mean by “use the size of the screw core”? I’m quite illiterate with tools like grandparents with a computer

 

thanks again

Diameter of the threaded part will be the size of the screw, the length of it is self explanatory as it's the total length of the screw in question , I have never looked close at any of these GW stock flaps cause using custom myself, but I assume there's holes in the flap for mounting it using screws locking it in place and holding it there. Measure diameter of those holes and get an idea of what screws to use, mrelwood said he used 3x12 so that would be 3mm cross section diameter and 12mm in length, in case of pre drilling make sure that your not drilling with too large diameter drill cause they need some material to bite into and that type of screw is really not meant to be attached, detached, reattached over and over again + think about not using too much force tighten them down.

But like I said, never actually attached one of these or even seen it really, so perhaps the other boys and gals have something to add? sitting here writing this text I am annoyed by the stepper motor noise from my 3d printer, but will make up for it later imho cause living in are where we have rainy days and water in the streets one of those longer, detachable flaps is far superior imo, perhaps not if going on dirt paths but on asphalt wearing clean clothes. :lol:

ok, replied to old message already replied to, sorry.

Edited by Electroman

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On 3/23/2019 at 7:36 PM, szaroczek said:

There is one thing regarding the electrical connection of this "motor-off" switch, however, that confuses me a bit. Namely, this two-pin socket in the main-board on your picture with is responsible for switching off the engine

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is originally empty, there is nothing there, no plug of any kind is connected to it whatsoever.

- in my case actually there is not even any silicon in it...!

606468627_MSXmotherboard03.PNG.63875b13da4f8f57538b852f90f131d9.PNG

Therefore it looks as originally this socket is always... OPEN! Still the engine is always ON (of course once you've initially turned the whole wheel on with the power button)... Your red switch, on the other hand, which you installed to this empty socket i normally ON, which means the two pins in the discussed socket are always short-circuited...!!! Then, once you push your red switch they get separated, so they go back to the original state, but the engine is suddenly... OFF! What's going on here? What am I actually missing? :unsure:

 

 

I tested silicone removal on this white stuff after strong suspicion that is not genuine pure silicone, did not take so what is it?

If anything it stick harder than silicone, slightly harder when dry (yet still flexible), can take paint, can take oils, Acetone, white spirit, heat/cold etc.. better than many silicons can dream of.

I suspect this may be the china version of  Casco Superfix or similar montage glue/adhesive, builders glue/adhesive or whatever it's called in English, in Swedish we just say "montage lim", the fact that very powerful industrial silicon removal did not bite like it should when I tested it is a strong give away to me. Worked with a range of silicone's for many years and yet to see one that can resist out dissolve/removal.

Either way, I suggest all that put their wheel together again skip the weaker silicon and go straight onto this type of montage glue instead, may be similar to a purer form of silicone, and cheap too. The typical Sikasil C silicone is similar to the untrained eye, but it's really not the same and would be interesting to know exactly what they did use at Gotway, they use a lot of everywhere after all? :lol:

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1 hour ago, Electroman said:

I tested silicone removal on this white stuff after strong suspicion that is not genuine pure silicone, did not take so what is it?

It is a specific RTV silicone glue for electronics, 704 being the magic identifier. Usually referred to as ”Kafuter 704”, but available from other brands as well afaik. It’s sole purpose is to keep the connectors without moving too much or disconnecting under vibration.

While it may be chemically resilient, physically not so much. Which is one of the many reasons I wouldn’t use montage, construction, or other types of glue instead.

Edited by mrelwood

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I am commenting on the Tubeless tire topic based on my experience with mountain bikes.

Generally, if you replace a tubed tire with a tubeless one, the tubeless one will have much stiffer side walls.  This makes less difference on a 2-wheel machine but I'd suspect it would have an immense difference on a unicycle.  

In Chooch's review of the Z10, he talks about how he uses very little tire pressure, yet, the thing still bounces around.  I believe it is because it comes with a tubeless tire, so even at a low pressure, the stiff sidewalls still allow the wheel to stand up right and bounce.  I'd bet if he replaced it with a tubed tire it would be better.

That's my 2 (Canadian) cents worth :)

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That's also my take on the Z10. I genuinely think it would be a better all-rounder if they had used a tubed tyre. That way it could be run at a higher pressure whilst maintaining the same compliancy. The higher pressure would reduce the tramlining without the side effect of a rock hard ride when attempting the same with the tubeless tyre.

Tubeless tyres are brilliant, but the benefits should not surpass handling or ride. A bit like why no-one likes the run-flat car tyres. A great idea, but also have many compromises.

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2 minutes ago, Vancouver Wheeler said:

Generally, if you replace a tubed tire with a tubeless one, the tubeless one will have much stiffer side walls.  This makes less difference on a 2-wheel machine but I'd suspect it would have an immense difference on a unicycle. 

The issue with our hobby/lifestyle is that the wheels are designed by Chinese cultural standards. Meaning, tire is a tire is a tire. If you purchase a specific tire from Ali, in my experience only your fifth order will be the actual tire you want.

EUC specific tires don’t really exist, so they use something that is close enough. For example, the pressure guidelines are likely meant for two-wheeled vehicles, meaning that they may actually be way off for our use case.

The Chaoyang H-666 is meant to be used tubed. And sure, it worked great. But as it is indeed slightly stiffer than the original, I wanted to give tubeless a try. If for nothing else, to be as little restricted by standards as the manufacturers seem to be... :P

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7 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I genuinely think it would be a better all-rounder if they had used a tubed tyre.

I think the issue is not about being tubed or tubeless on the Z10. The tire is way wider and way lower profile than anything still seen on EUCs, which I believe are the key ingredients for the strange behaviour. Considering how small the actual behavioral difference between tubed and tubeless is for the H-666, I wouldn’t blame the Z10 on that front.

The stiff tire might have been the only way for them to achieve the desired outlook and dimensions, or a proper sized tube not being available might well have been the reasons for them to go tubeless.

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19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It is a specific RTV silicone glue for electronics, 704 being the magic identifier. Usually referred to as ”Kafuter 704”, but available from other brands as well afaik. It’s sole purpose is to keep the connectors without moving too much or disconnecting under vibration.

While it may be chemically resilient, physically not so much. Which is one of the many reasons I wouldn’t use montage, construction, or other types of glue instead.

Thanks, now I do recognize the name, someone helped me identify it some time ago just had forgot that for some reason?

Silylated modified polymers have got an endless range of use, caulk, seal, bond it's just an amazing thing in today's construction industry and outside that too, if getting a chance to try some out take the opportunity. Did Google the 704 but seems like I must order it and wait if I want to use it specifically and not available here locally, of course it's pretty safe to use if GW already use it but if I want to put my wheel together tomorrow it's nice to to be able to do so and comparing the 2 it is chocking how alike they are to the touch, to the eye, to a degree I start to wonder what 704 actually is chemically cause they do list 704 slightly differently depending on where you read form what I can see?

Talking polymers, again I admit I kind of suck at chemistry but they have many of the same capabilities no matter how the are sold, how the pr machinery is trying to sell them from manufacturer to manufacturer, they can indeed be used very successfully to a wide range of tasks, be that electrical insulation and protection from water or shake proof connections or adhesives in the construction industry. As adhesives I suspect is where we start to see some differences between a well known manufacturer putting cash into top notch research vs others ..or my experience at least is that there's differences even between m,major players or did not that long ago at least, but other then that I am speculating.

Nerdy indeed, but find it interesting nevertheless. :lol:

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It is true, a specific regular silicone can well be sold as an expensive specialized adhesive as well, as long as it has been tested for the specific application. But the generic silicone can change slightly in composition without notice rendering it unsuitable for the specialized application. Which is why it is very difficult for a consumer to make the choice. Which is why the specialized product is tested and more expensive. That’s how I see it at least.

You probably rebuilt the wheel already, but I’m pretty sure your local electronics shop carries a suitable adhesive. And just a regular hi-temp RTV silicone might work as well, but I’m not 100% sure on that.

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16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It is true, a specific regular silicone can well be sold as an expensive specialized adhesive as well, as long as it has been tested for the specific application. But the generic silicone can change slightly in composition without notice rendering it unsuitable for the specialized application. Which is why it is very difficult for a consumer to make the choice. Which is why the specialized product is tested and more expensive. That’s how I see it at least.

You probably rebuilt the wheel already, but I’m pretty sure your local electronics shop carries a suitable adhesive. And just a regular hi-temp RTV silicone might work as well, but I’m not 100% sure on that.

Yeah, I will have a look and see what they can offer around here?

Will also contract Casco who make the stuff I have, indeed that is true, been at several sites where the applied Sikasil must be removed after application cause the customer had specific demands and someone somehow missed that, just like sometimes a drawing specifically list Hilti anchors like for ex HUS-3 and nothing else will do. Then use must use them even though many times more expensive.

Then again, when the steel rod anchors (HIT, HAS etc) for injectable HIT series mortar are classified as 8.8 and comparing to other 8.8 one expect them all to be as hard, same strength right? They are not, so suspect Hilti under classify their anchors or something to that effect, burn through a lot more disks or blades chewing through the Hilti variants and take longer getting through them as well.

Ohh well just a side note, for sure there is differences in this regards and the bonding strengths is night and day even between products looking, acting the same, I would expect the same here as well so sure nice to use what we already know works very well I suppose? Then gain on the other hand, would be nice to run into a superior product easier to find hehe? :lol: Casco do make some decent products, but will they provide all info in a honest way if sending them a mess?

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After seeing a mod done on a KS18XL on Speedyfeet show though I would give it a go. Works a treat when off road riding.

Just waiting for the new tire Shinko 241 2.75-14 to arrive

 

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2 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

After seeing a mod done on a KS18XL on Speedyfeet show though I would give it a go. Works a treat when off road riding.

I agree, accel-pads and brake-pads are a must when going steep hills on an 18” wheel!

2 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

Just waiting for the new tire Shinko 241 2.75-14 to arrive

This will be interesting! The knobs are cose enough that it might well be smooth on pavement as well. I hope the tire will fit!

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6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I agree, accel-pads and brake-pads are a must when going steep hills on an 18” wheel!

This will be interesting! The knobs are cose enough that it might well be smooth on pavement as well. I hope the tire will fit!

Indeed, also curious about the tire and likely a great middle way if doing both asphalt and off road.

I do clearly most on road/asphalt myself, even looked for a slick tire at some point but decided that so little threat noise and smooth enough so better stick to stock, as it is.

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2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

Marty, do you have any idea how much the double-sided tape you used ”for easier mounting” inhibits the cooling of the saddle?! :lol:

That was a great tip though! I think I’ll have a go, since the original seat is useless for a 6’4” person with riding pants that don’t flex much at all.

Edited by mrelwood

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IMG_0520

@Marty Backe Thanks for passing on this seat mod idea and making a video of the installation. Whilst I notice that you have answered the question, elsewhere (Facebook), that the angle the saddle mounts at works OK for you I have thought of a way to mount the saddle flatter and also higher!

When I looked at the bracket more closely, I could see that if 2 of these were bolted together mirrored (forming a "Z" shape) and then the saddle would mount on top without any angle and also gaining more height (and more spring/suspension) at the same time.

I have ordered 2 for myself from Ali today to try this out on my Tesla, only now I'm having to wait for China shipping so it will be a while before I can report back on how it works out. (Hopefully it works as expected).

I've been wanting to give seated riding a go, but as you are well aware, both the Tesla and the Z10 are not really tall enough (I really need to add a Monster to my small collection), but I'm thinking 2 of these suspension brackets would mount well on the Tesla's handle and offer a more comfortable seated height!

So thanks again for passing on a little inspiration to help me try out something New.

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So the Off road Shinko 2.75-14 arrived 

Fitted last nite had to trim the side knobs 

Also seems the wheel does not sit central to the case 

Only done 6kms this evening so 1st impression

Off roading is heaps better especially in Sandy and gravel tracks I ride 

Tarmac riding not to bad sacrificed  high speed handling and get a bit of road noise 

Will update as I go

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