New Inmotion V10 / V10F

[eufp]

18 hours ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Hm  - and how long will you wait for the KS 18L?

They are in stock.

[Nils]

So, after having some more time to ride my V10F, I am now an unhappy member of the overload club. I've gotten it three times to date, always when riding some climbs and pushing into the wheel. The overload issue is of course by now well known, so regard it as yet another data point I guess. In my case I'd have to say though that the conditions haven't been at all extreme, neither with the inclines nor the temperature. Today for instance the temperature here have been at or below 20C (68F), and the inclines of the steeper but shorter kinds. I.e. no gruelling long climbs in hot temperatures but conditions which I believe most riders could face.

[JerryR]

36 minutes ago, Nils said:

So, after having some more time to ride my V10F, I am now an unhappy member of the overload club. I've gotten it three times to date, always when riding some climbs and pushing into the wheel. The overload issue is of course by now well known, so regard it as yet another data point I guess. In my case I'd have to say though that the conditions haven't been at all extreme, neither with the inclines nor the temperature. Today for instance the temperature here have been at or below 20C (68F), and the inclines of the steeper but shorter kinds. I.e. no gruelling long climbs in hot temperatures but conditions which I believe most riders could face. 

Nils, what was your battery level when these happened? I wonder if there are two kinds of Overloads ... one due to long, steep climbs in hot weather (overheating) ... another, "pushing" hard into hills but at lower battery levels? The two times that I got an Overload was for the latter. I've tried to duplicate one of the Overloads by pushing hard up the same steep hill with a lot of battery reserve and I couldn't get it to Overload. I tend to keep my wheel highly charged but maybe I'll let the charge dwindle and try the same hill at below 40% battery level to see if Overloads again.

[Nils]

13 minutes ago, JerryR said:

Nils, what was your battery level when these happened? I wonder if there are two kinds of Overloads ... one due to long, steep climbs in hot weather (overheating) ... another, "pushing" hard into hills but at lower battery levels? The two times that I got an Overload was for the latter. I've tried to duplicate one of the Overloads by pushing hard up the same steep hill with a lot of battery reserve and I couldn't get it to Overload. I tend to keep my wheel highly charged but maybe I'll let the charge dwindle and try the same hill at below 40% battery level to see if Overloads again.

Yeah, it would make sense that a low battery would exacerbate the issue. However, at all three times my wheel has been highly charged (80+ I'd say).

[Gunthor]

Welcome to the 

3 hours ago, Nils said:

 overload club

Today I had no problems - even dared to ride between 34-36 km/h for some minutes: 

However yesterday was a different one:

So "Yes"  I can confirm @JerryRs observation that the overload alarm gets triggered especially when battery levels are low. But at 20°C, no long climbs and battery level > 80 I'd be curious to see the alarm message WheelLog would have logged (if running)...

Edited September 9, 2018 by Gunthor

[Nils]

14 hours ago, Gunthor said:

So "Yes"  I can confirm @JerryRs observation that the overload alarm gets triggered especially when battery levels are low. But at 20°C, no long climbs and battery level > 80 I'd be curious to see the alarm message WheelLog would have logged (if running)...

I don't have any log data to share unfortunately. Also, while it could be interesting I'm not sure how useful it would be in the greater picture - the problem is known and others such as @maltocs have already provided detailed logs of measurements. The way things stands now it seems Inmotion has just under-speced the wheel component-wise, and no measuring will help with that.. To make this go away Inmotion would have to provide some replacement parts such as a beefier control card, which I personally don't see happening.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Nils

[MBIKER_SURFER]

55 minutes ago, Nils said:

To make this go away Inmotion would have to provide some replacement parts such as a beefier control card, which I personally don't see happening.

Would be interesting to see a V10F board in comparison to a V8 board. Components should be different or more due to more than double the power of the motor.

But first of all, Inmotion have to take care about all the other issues which are partly dangerous: i.e. the motor is spinning to high speed, if wheel is falling aside. My V10F than  went up about 70 cm due to the fact, that the full speed spinning tire was touching ground. You can't control that......

[Fastmike]

1 hour ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Would be interesting to see a V10F board in comparison to a V8 board. Components should be different or more due to more than double the power of the motor.

But first of all, Inmotion have to take care about all the other issues which are partly dangerous: i.e. the motor is spinning to high speed, if wheel is falling aside. My V10F than  went up about 70 cm due to the fact, that the full speed spinning tire was touching ground. You can't control that......

Found those pics if that helps...

V8

 

V10F

[MBIKER_SURFER]

Interesting - both board saying it's a V8 driver board........

[Fastmike]

1 hour ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Interesting - both board saying it's a V8 driver board........

Yep, but the V10F shows a second board... they may have reused stock from V8 to start with to minimize cost, reason why the V10F uses 'old'/less efficient TO220.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Fastmike

[MBIKER_SURFER]

That explains to me all the bugs - just didn't think f.i. of different gyro used in V10 - compared to V5/V8 !

Also the motor spinning and so on ........

Quite a way to go ......

[quixfz]

2 hours ago, Fastmike said:

Yep, but the V10F shows a second board... they may have reused stock from V8 to start with to minimize cost, reason why the V10F uses 'old'/less efficient TO220.

That second board looks like an audio amp, together with an additional bluetooth module and power converter. So it's basicly the extra stuff needed for the extra bluetooth speaker (compared to V8)

[Kristof Willen]

I have my V10 now for 3 weeks, and start out to do longer distances.  I've did a 17km ride today, battery dropped from 90% to 45%, indicating a 35km autonomy.  Quite disappointing, I was hoping to end up somewhere between 40 & 50km.  That's for a 200 pounds driver (including my -ahum- heavy luggage).

 

And a word of warning here : I was mounting the V10, but stumbled, and had to jump off.  I grabbed the top of the V10 to prevent it from falling, next thing I know my thumb is bleeding like a pig.  Got a nasty cut there from the edges from the V-shape, where the trolley clicks into the mount which fixes the trolley to the wheel handle (where the 'red' meets the 'black') .  Those edges of that V-shape are quite sharp, at least on my unit. 

  

[MBIKER_SURFER]

9 minutes ago, Kristof Willen said:

I have my V10 now for 3 weeks, and start out to do longer distances.  I've did a 17km ride today, battery dropped from 90% to 45%, indicating a 35km autonomy.  Quite disappointing, I was hoping to end up somewhere between 40 & 50km.  That's for a 200 pounds driver (including my -ahum- heavy luggage).  

Concerning distance, it was disappointing to me too. But not riding to fast, 50 km shoul be possible. But I expected roughly 60 km for a 960Wh battery.

[quixfz]

21 minutes ago, Kristof Willen said:

That's for a 200 pounds driver (including my -ahum- heavy luggage).

when i had i lost some 10% of my weight, i could feel quite a difference on my old weak unicycle... there will probably barely be any difference power-wise, but you should see a lot more distance. win-win situation for you and your v10

[Glitched]

11 hours ago, quixfz said:

That second board looks like an audio amp, together with an additional bluetooth module and power converter. So it's basicly the extra stuff needed for the extra bluetooth speaker (compared to V8)

So you're telling me there's no difference between the v8 board and v10f's, except for an additional bluetooth speaker??

[Zeno74]

4 hours ago, Glitched said:

So you're telling me there's no difference between the v8 board and v10f's, except for an additional bluetooth speaker??

This is a bit disappointing I must admit 

[Zeno74]

10 hours ago, MBIKER_SURFER said:

Concerning distance, it was disappointing to me too. But not riding to fast, 50 km shoul be possible. But I expected roughly 60 km for a 960Wh battery.

It seems that the efficiency of the V10F is lower than the expectations of a lot of people and also lower of many of the competitors with similar batteries...what can be the reason? I think that most of the main manufacturers use equivalent components, could it be that the V10F has some over-dimensioned gyros?

Given the attention they are putting into safety (and also the fact that the wheel goes in self protection very quickly) I could expect something similar...

A nice experiment would be to go over a bump or a hole on the street with several wheels at an increasing speed and see which one resists better in keeping us vertical vs a face plant; quite an annoying test to do ;-) but I'd bet my cent that there is where all the missing energy of the V10F is going, in some very big gyros...

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Zeno74 said:

I'd bet my cent that there is where all the missing energy of the V10F is going, in some very big gyros...

Just to clarify, the gyro in these devices is just a tiny little component (or two) that only measures the vertical position of the wheel. It draws barely any power, and the power demand doesn’t change based on the changes in the vertical position of the wheel.

What keeps us up at potholes is the sheer power of the motor, and the firmware that controls how and when the power is used. V10F should be at the top of the game with it’s 2000W though.

[Zeno74]

21 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Just to clarify, the gyro in these devices is just a tiny little component (or two) that only measures the vertical position of the wheel. It draws barely any power, and the power demand doesn’t change based on the changes in the vertical position of the wheel.

 What keeps us up at potholes is the sheer power of the motor, and the firmware that controls how and when the power is used. V10F should be at the top of the game with it’s 2000W though.

I doubt that the motor can do such a thing without any "power" Gyro, the gyros you are mentioning are only for the signal, like the ones used to stabilise the electronic cameras, but I doubt that our balance on the Y axis is just kept with the motor...

[US69]

33 minutes ago, Zeno74 said:

I doubt that the motor can do such a thing without any "power" Gyro, the gyros you are mentioning are only for the signal, like the ones used to stabilise the electronic cameras, but I doubt that our balance on the Y axis is just kept with the motor...

Then your doubts are wrong, Sorry! ;-)

The gyro is Nothing more than a sensor giving his measurements to the CPU....and the CPU then steers the Motor to Keep us balanced.

So @mrelwood is totally correct. The gyro itself Needs nearly no power, exactly same like BT or and Lights on the Wheel. The Motor alone draws hefty amps.

 

[Rok Tomažin]

Anything new with the speedometer? Am I the only one with trouble? I can’t even go past 40 kmh anymore even if its unlocked with DB to 45.

[Zeno74]

4 minutes ago, US69 said:

Then your doubts are wrong, Sorry! ;-)

The gyro is Nothing more than a sensor giving his measurements to the CPU....and the CPU then steers the Motor to Keep us balanced.

So @mrelwood is totally correct. The gyro itself Needs nearly no power, exactly same like BT or and Lights on the Wheel. The Motor alone draws hefty amps.

 

If it's as you say of course, gyros for signal use insignificant power. But if it is as you say when you lean forward the acceleration of the wheel should be much higher than what it is to balance you with the inertia.

Do you have any evidence of the fact that there are no "power" gyros? From what I know os physic and engineering it ssems impossible to me but of course these are just personal speculations, if you have any data I'd be interested, thanks! ;-)

 

[US69]

1 minute ago, Zeno74 said:

If it's as you say of course, gyros for signal use insignificant power. But if it is as you say when you lean forward the acceleration of the wheel should be much higher than what it is to balance you with the inertia.

Do you have any evidence of the fact that there are no "power" gyros? From what I know os physic and engineering it ssems impossible to me but of course these are just personal speculations, if you have any data I'd be interested, thanks! ;-)

 

As said above: The gyro is just a sensor...he has Nothing to do "balancing" the Wheel itself. It just measures how the Wheel is leaning, this info goes to CPU and with the implemented Firmware the Controller pushes Energy or lets Energy flow through the mosfets into one of the 3 Motor phases. The Motor uses the entire Energy.

I guess you have a wrong idea of what a gyro is...

Here is a Video...german, but you get the idea:

 

 

[US69]

Another easy Explanation:

The CPU does technicall Nothing else as trying to have the pedals Always in horizontal.

When the gyro measures a leaning of the pedal(pressure), the CPU pushes more power into the Motor, to counter the leaning...so you lean Forward for example...and as hefty you do that, the faster the Wheel accelerates and uses power...

Edited September 11, 2018 by US69