Begode EX30 4000W 3600Wh 134v Suspension

[Slartibartfast]

Excuse my ignorance but I see a lot of you seem to have a surprising amount of familiarity with this C40 motor. I for one know nothing of it.

Could someone briefly summarise the differences between the C30, C38, and C40 motors?

 

Much thanks,
Slarti.

[EMA]

15 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Could someone briefly summarise the differences between the C30, C38, and C40 motors?

it's simply a bigger motor with more torque, bigger magnets, 30, 38 and 40mm is the width.

EX and 1st gen of monster 24" used a c40 motor

[wstuart]

50 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Excuse my ignorance but I see a lot of you seem to have a surprising amount of familiarity with this C40 motor. I for one know nothing of it.

Could someone briefly summarise the differences between the C30, C38, and C40 motors?

 

Much thanks,
Slarti.

I don't know much about magnet sizes, but I ride an EX, and I can comment on the benefits / drawbacks of the C40.  

With the C40 the motor/tire is 40 lbs.  All that rotational inertia makes the wheel super stable an resistant to wobbles.  It also makes it so the wheel doesn't change speed very easily.  There is good and bad to that.

The good:  riding the C40 ex feels like having cruise control.  Bumps, gusts of wind, and hills just don't affect the speed or attitude of the wheel.  It's a really cool feeling to not have to be constantly applying pressure to overcome bumps and wind gusts.  It's also much less prone to wobbling while cornering.  I really feel I can toss the wheel into a corner and lean as hard as I want to the side.  In the intro clip to "Wrongway's" videos where he is making that super hard left turn - he is on an EX.  

The Bad:  the motor doesn't want to get going off the line.  You can feel that there is plenty of power, but it just takes more to get it going.  Same thing with braking.  Once you get past about 10mph though, the thing pulls like none other.  The wheel also takes more effort to turn and maneuver - especially if you're a lighter rider

 

I think the 134 volt will help with responsiveness off the line and make this wheel an ABSOLUTE BEAST!  

Edited October 25, 2022 by wstuart

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

I think the 134 volt will help with responsiveness off the line and make this wheel an ABSOLUTE BEAST!  

Unfortunately it doesn’t. The higher voltage doesn’t even reach the motor until you’re riding at very fast speeds.

 Since the wheel stays upright, it already has a sufficient amount of power available. Increasing voltage, battery or peak power would have no effect. Being slow to accelerate is always about geometry and physics. And probably the hardest riding mode, which is the worst for effortless acceleration.

[wstuart]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Unfortunately it doesn’t. The higher voltage doesn’t even reach the motor until you’re riding at very fast speeds.

 Since the wheel stays upright, it already has a sufficient amount of power available. Increasing voltage, battery or peak power would have no effect. Being slow to accelerate is always about geometry and physics. And probably the hardest riding mode, which is the worst for effortless acceleration.

Really?? This surprises me! I would think that having more watts to push the motor would have helped off the line.

I wonder if the Master pro is snappier off the line than the Monster pro.  Would this give us some idea?

Edited October 25, 2022 by wstuart

[RagingGrandpa]

18 hours ago, wstuart said:

snappier off the line

The maximum possible acceleration from a standstill is measurable. 

It's a function of 4 main things:

• Motor type (e.g. size and winding)
• Tire size (outer diameter)
• Electric current (which is limited by the controller)
• Total inertia (machine + rider masses)

Note: Voltage is not one of these things. Because at low speeds, very low voltages will make the motor current reach its maximum.

 

18 hours ago, wstuart said:

I wonder if the Master pro is snappier off the line than the Monster pro.

From what we know today, we expect 22" MasPro to have very similar pull force to 19" Master: because the controller is the same (same current, same voltage), and the freespin speed is nearly the same (motor and tire differences make them equivalent).
And with the same force and more weight, the result is slightly less acceleration for Master Pro.

22" MasPro vs 100V 24" Monster Pro: Master Pro likely has more pull force due to the change in motor type (4-turn C38 vs 3-turn C30).

But isn't this an EX30 thread?  
We think EX30 has a larger motor and larger controller than Master, with the same tire size, same voltage, and slightly higher freespin speed. If speed went up and voltage stayed the same, they'll have to increase current to achieve the same acceleration. And mass is increased. EX30 and Master seem likely to have similar peak acceleration.
 

And, "feel" is very different than maximum acceleration, because we're not at the maximum limit during normal riding. 
"Feel" is a result of many things, primarily firmware (which varies from model to model).
Be sure to experiment with soft ride modes, when evaluating any new model for acceleration feel. It is totally plausible that EUC models with similar acceleration limits may have very different acceleration feel. To describe it, we'll need to ask for human observations; Sir Isaac's math won't help much.

 

18 hours ago, wstuart said:

more watts

Physical power is a representation of force multiplied by speed. A rate of doing work.
At a standstill ("off the line"), when speed is nearly zero, power isn't a useful metric. 
Consideration of force and acceleration is more helpful here.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
(EX30 and Master have the same tire size)

[wstuart]

Hmmmmm.  This is very interesting!  Thankyou!  Maybe I'll stick with my Master preorder then......

[techyiam]

 

24 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Hmmmmm.  This is very interesting!  Thankyou!  Maybe I'll stick with my Master preorder then......

If I were you, I would wait if possible, and compare both wheels side by side when they are both available.

Firstly, the EX30 has a 4000W C40 motor that is claimed to be IP rated.

The EX30 weatherproofing should be better than the Master.

The EX30 has the latest iteration of Begode's suspension design (100mm vs 80 mm travel).

The EX30 has an all new controller design with 36 mosfets, whereas the Master has 24 mosfets.

 

Since, the EX30 has a different controller, and motor than the Master, one can't be sure that the EX30 will perform the same as the Master. 

[MrMonoWheel]

The EX30 sounds dank as hell. I dont really know why the other begode wheels exist if this ones supposed to be so good. I cant wait till WrongWay does a EX30 vs V13 vs Sherman S video. Maybe even the Commander Pro, even if it is just a Sherman S ripoff.

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, wstuart said:

Really?? This surprises me! I would think that having more watts to push the motor would have helped off the line.

No matter what kind of a power plant an EUC has, “gas pedal” is the rider's lean. It’s the only thing that determines how much power is in use. If you only press the "gas pedal" third of the way, the maximum power isn't in use and doesn't matter. What happens between standstill and maximum acceleration before overlean is indeed mostly about the feel, just like @RagingGrandpa said.

6 hours ago, wstuart said:

I wonder if the Master pro is snappier off the line than the Monster pro.

“Snappier” is again a feel issue, not related to any maximum metrics of the wheel like volts, amps, mph, or even Newton-metres. The thing that affects the zippyness of the wheel the most is tire diameter. Second is probably ride mode. IIRC Master Pro is 22” and Monster Pro 24”, so yes, smaller is snapper. And all the 18-21” wheels smoke them both.

 And by zippyness I mean the amount of effort that’s required to accelerate. Large tire diameter requires more lean to accelerate at the same rate, because your lean kind of has to reach the front end of the tire on each wheel to accelerate at the same rate. The closer the front end is, the easier it is to reach.

That’s why I still don’t believe that 22+ inch wheels will ever get very good sales numbers compared to 18 (=19=20=21) inch wheels. Their geometry just doesn’t have the liveliness that most people wish to feel while riding. Instead, I’m afraid many Master Pro (and other 22+ inchers’) buyers will be disappointed.

 

5 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

We think EX30 has a larger motor and larger controller than Master

Isn’t the tire diameter the same though?

 

3 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

The EX30 sounds dank as hell. I dont really know why the other begode wheels exist if this ones supposed to be so good.

I feel like this might’ve been said about quite a few Begode wheels… until the reviews and customer experiences go public. EX, Master, EX20S, Master Pro, etc.

3 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I cant wait till WrongWay does a EX30 vs V13 vs Sherman S video.

That should be a very informative video indeed!

 

[techyiam]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’m afraid many Master Pro (and other 22+ inchers’) buyers will be disappointed.

You don't have data to support this. Alienrides have the Master Pro in stock. It is currently outselling the T4. Yet, we haven't heard buyers complaining that they are disappointed. 

I am pretty sure if you or @Unventor buy a Master Pro, you two would provide the data points. But you both have no use for this wheel so that won't happen. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

You don't have data to support this.

Of course not. Like I said, it’s just something I’m afraid that might happen.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

It is currently outselling the T4. Yet, we haven't heard buyers complaining that they are disappointed.

It’s still a very fresh product. I haven’t followed closely, but isn’t it just now barely reaching the first customers? Let’s look at the sales, reviews and discussions 6 months from now.

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

I am pretty sure if you or @Unventor buy a Master Pro, you two would provide the data points. But you both have no use for this wheel so that won't happen. 

He he… Even if I wanted a super fast wheel, the thing about riding that originally lured my heart in big time was the effortlessness of steering, accelerating and braking. 22+ inch wheels just don’t have that, simply because the geometry doesn’t allow that to happen, even for a 193cm/208kg rider.
 

The MSX was already a huge disappointment at first, but turned out that 18x3” was still something I was able to adapt to and retain some of the effortless glide. Especially now with Inmotion’s extended ride mode settings. But another roughly similar jump to even lazier behaving EUCs, no way. That’s not why or how I’d want to ride. And based on the aggressive liveliness of most riders you can see on YouTube, neither do they.

During my 5.5 years of riding I’ve seen only one EUC in person with a rim diameter larger than 14”. That should tell quite a lot as well.

[Freeforester]

Mr E, I fear you or your friend may have just gained 100kg, please check there isn’t a Master Pro in your/his/her back pocket!

Edited October 26, 2022 by Freeforester

[RagingGrandpa]

18 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

We think EX30 has a larger motor and larger controller than Master

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Isn’t the tire diameter the same though?

Yes exactly. So the motor is physically larger, but the rim is still 14".
 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I mean the amount of effort that’s required to accelerate. Large tire diameter requires more lean to accelerate at the same rate

Exactly
 

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I still don’t believe that 22+ inch wheels will ever get very good sales numbers

Ah, but that is a topic of customer preference, and almost always from customers that have no opportunity to ride these models back-to-back before purchase. Acceleration performance, especially vague attributes like "feel," seem irrelevant to most new buyers. As long as a specsheet shows big numbers for continuous power ratings, buyers will come  
 

17 hours ago, techyiam said:

EX30 has an all new controller design with 36 mosfets, whereas the Master has 24 mosfets.

Presuming they stick with the JieJie FETs from Master, 6 parallels will still be less impressive than 4 parallels of the Master V1 Infineon FETs   

And let's hope to see EX30's firmware limits increased to 300A... Master being limited to the same-old 250A was disappointing. 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It’s still a very fresh product. I haven’t followed closely, but isn’t it just now barely reaching the first customers? Let’s look at the sales, reviews and discussions 6 months from now.

Actually, their first batch is sold out now. When they had stock, they said they were ready to ship out the next business day. ETA is now November for pre-orders. 

@CyberV0LT posted that Alienrides had stock on October 10. So it's been about two weeks. I would image many would have received theirs by now.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

During my 5.5 years of riding I’ve seen only one EUC in person with a rim diameter larger than 14”. That should tell quite a lot as well.

That is not surprising since the Abrams hardly sold, and I guess the Monster and Monster Pro were probably not a popular wheel in your neck of the woods. Plus they were kind of niche wheels.

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Acceleration performance, especially vague attributes like "feel," seem irrelevant to most new buyers.

Someone posted a couple of days ago that he was impressed by the torque of his Master Pro. He felt only the Master may have more. 

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Someone posted a couple of days ago that he was impressed by the torque of his Master Pro. He felt only the Master may have more. 

I've tried a few 19" Masters locally for just a few minutes... compared to my Sherman and MSP, acceleration felt worse (less easy) from an initial impression. But I shrugged this off, assuming the difference was related to powerpad position and hard-mode. 

Peak torque of 19" Master was nothing special. It's essentially the same motor torque as MSP (due to similar hardware: 19" C38 and 250A), but with the higher pedal height I found it easier to thrust into a pedal dip. 

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I've tried a few 19" Masters locally for just a few minutes... compared to my Sherman and MSP, acceleration felt worse (less easy) from an initial impression. But I shrugged this off, assuming the difference was related to powerpad position and hard-mode. 

Peak torque of 19" Master was nothing special. It's essentially the same motor torque as MSP (due to similar hardware: 19" C38 and 250A), but with the higher pedal height I found it easier to thrust into a pedal dip. 

That is puzzling since so many YouTube influencers have claimed the Master has class leading torque and acceleration. Many say the Sherman is not a torque monster, and that the Sherman Max is noticeably torqueier. 

Chance Hinz was one of the first to say that he felt the Master has even more torque than the RS-19 HT. Zen Lee still raves about the Master's torque, as well as Marty. As for owners, there is FrenchUsa, plus many others who felt that the Master gas the torque and the high top speed. 

[RagingGrandpa]

I think that's all compatible with what I observed... 

• Stall torque (pull force) is equivalent to MSP.
• Acceleration feel is extremely subjective - so a negative first impression is normal, and confidence only comes after many miles and some personalized adjustments.
• Sherman has a much lower peak torque, I agree; but its typical acceleration felt better to me, than my first 60 seconds riding Master.

Initial impressions don't ultimately matter, since in the end you'll be owning and using the EUC for a long time. 
I just wanted to point out: this time, my initial impression was negative. It's not a mark against the Master, just an example of what other riders might feel initially.

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

class leading torque and acceleration

Above 30mph, yes, I believe 19" Master has much more acceleration available before overlean, due to higher voltage. 
And that's not something that a rider could appreciate objectively, unless they were to overlean an MSP at 30mph and then immediately retry the maneuver with Master.

(But wasn't our discussion of acceleration feel here focused on "off the line" behavior, and not higher speeds?)

.02

[techyiam]

23 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Initial impressions don't ultimately matter, since in the end you'll be owning and using the EUC for a long time. 

I think you have made a very good point. In that initial impression may not reflect what a wheel can eventually do.

A good example would be my V12. It took some time before I was able get it to accelerate so much stronger. There was the hardware / firmware fiddling, and also rider adaptation. 

[Bizra6ot]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

That is puzzling since so many YouTube influencers have claimed the Master has class leading torque and acceleration.

The thing is that most people talk about feeling but few bring numbers, those like kuji or wrongway who display numbers on acceleration show that there is really little if no difference, kuji is a master of lean and makes times equivalent to an exn C30
Same on the acceleration race of amped eletric games the 100V C30 and 134V C38 are pretty close 

[mrelwood]

The thing that bugs me about acceleration tests and races is the fact that since they didn't overlean, they could’ve accelerated a bit more. It’s not about the capabilities of the wheel, it’s about the balls of the rider.

[wstuart]

11 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

 

 

Presuming they stick with the JieJie FETs from Master, 6 parallels will still be less impressive than 4 parallels of the Master V1 Infineon FETs   

And let's hope to see EX30's firmware limits increased to 300A... Master being limited to the same-old 250A was disappointing. 

 

I have no idea how to read this chart, but I notice that the boxes next to the s22 and Master are orange and red.  Does this mean that the s22 and Master boards are more likely to cutout or self destruct?

[UtahRider]

On 10/25/2022 at 3:36 PM, wstuart said:

Hmmmmm.  This is very interesting!  Thankyou!  Maybe I'll stick with my Master preorder then......

The real consideration should be the battery size (and price). Although the Master battery size is plenty for me, if  the EX30 was out before I preordered it, I would have chosen the EX30.

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, UtahRider said:

The real consideration should be the battery size (and price). Although the Master battery size is plenty for me, if  the EX30 was out before I preordered it, I would have chosen the EX30.

I'm curiouse, coukd you have switched your pre order?  

I'm still thinking about switching mine..... I'm just thinking that 95 lbs might not make for a very good trail wheel...... but I'm 6'8" 240lbs with gear so maybe it would work....