Inmotion V12 High Torque edition

[supercurio]

According to Inmotion R&D team, the V12 HT board will use larger TO-247 MOSFET

In a previous discussion, I learned that the part evaluated for this package size is the HOOYI HY5012W, a proven choice (MSP, RS, EX.N, Sherman)
It looks promising!

[Paul g]

Hei, I’m glad I’m still alive and I can come back and read the new developments that you share on the V12 🤗

[rolis]

We got another official announcement from @Cecily Inmotion  regarding the V12 HT.
Seems like we are going to see soon what it can do! Since it is presented as the ultimate hill climbing machine, I am expecting great things!

Link to announcement

 

 

 

[onkeldanuel]

Why is the V12HT topspeed announced at 60 kmph? Is the Motor-KV between an C30 and c38? Because an Begode RS C38 Topspeed is more Like 55 perhaps 60 Kmph but with an 18 Inch tire instead 16??

[fbhb]

Some close up comparisons of the New "bigger Mosfets" Inmotion has used on the V12HT can be seen if you scroll through to around the 14.00 minute mark!

Edited April 10, 2022 by fbhb

[meepmeepmayer]

48 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Some close up comparisons of the New "bigger Mosfets" Inmotion has used on the V12HT can be seen if you scroll through to around the 14.00 minute mark!

These look even bigger than the usual TO-247.

[mrelwood]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

These look even bigger than the usual TO-247.

Looks normal TO-247 vs TO-220 to me:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Size-comparison-between-TO-247-TO-220-and-SMDGaNs-available-on-the-market_fig4_334411516

[mhpr262]

Wow, those do look beefier, no kidding! Hopefully Inmotion has learned their lesson for future wheels. This disaster has probably cost them more money measured in lost sales, customer trust and bad PR than even 20.000 wheels sold with the smaller MOSFETs could have saved them.

[Funky]

Will post this video, because I'm 100% sure someone else will do that.  I also like the orange rim.

 

chooch tech - INMOTION V12 HIGH TORQUE: UNBOXING AND INITIAL THOUGHTS

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

That was kind of raw and uncut. Tire is a Cordial something or other (always interested in tire options for 16" wheels)

[Tawpie]

I guess he crashed it already... no real details except he shredded his gear. I read that he said it dumped him hitting a bump. Happens. Lulled into complacency by suspension perhaps.

(note to self: if I ever become a distributor...)

Edited April 12, 2022 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

 

6 hours ago, Funky said:

 

It’s getting harder and harder (fast) for me to watch Chooch’s videos. I really wish for his sake that he would simply quit saying anything technical, ‘cos it just ain’t his thing and he gets the stuff wrong. (“Other” wheels are not lacking in torque because they have “spokes”… But they just require more effort because the tire diameter is that much larger.)

Great to know though that Inmotion made the HT just because he reported having bent the rim. 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

I read that he said it dumped him hitting a bump.

Sigh… pumping in 40psi on a knobby for a stick of a rider that he is tends to do that.

I thought everybody knew already that the pressure recommendations/guides at the tire are not very suitable for EUCs, especially for ones without suspension.

Edited April 12, 2022 by mrelwood

[Funky]

For sure 40 psi seems high. 40 is near "max" recommended air pressure right?

I'm 2x chooch heavy and riding at 28psi even. Then again i don't jump at all. 

[supercurio]

Unfortunately Chooch crashed his V12 HT on the first ride, with an over-lean close to / at max speed (no beeps or tiltback tho). Not 100% sure about beeps because of the music.
He mentions 37 mph (60 kph), which is the rated top speed at full battery

There was a hole followed by a bump, which lead to what very much looks like a cutout.
I asked if he could share a reframed version where he would show the tire to see if the over-lean was caused by the tire digging in soft ground instead of running out of torque on the bump.
Edit: it's already in the video at 1:11.

He rightfully points out that it was a mistake to ride it like the S20 despite lower top speed and lack of suspension.
Although you could always hope for some more safety margin below beeps.

Hard to tell if any other HT wheel (Gotway C38) would have fared differently given the circumstances.
I'm unsure about the impact of tire pressure in this circumstance. It might have made the instantaneous torque before bounce and overlean in the air requirement less instantaneous.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by supercurio

[Tasku]

42 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Unfortunately Chooch crashed his V12 HT on the first ride

When Adam crashed Abrams (if only he would have it on video too) I am pretty sure, in his crash as well the wheel tilted on frontside similar manner, as it does in this crash video. Watch carefully as the wheel is nearing its performance, then hits a bump and as result the wheel is in air already tilted torwards. When he lands back to ground he is at angle. Crash only option.

There has always been reason, why not to push the peak speed in conditions (especially) where road surface is not perfectly even. The higher the speed the smaller the bump on road need to be that this type of event might happen. The momentum carries the riders topside forward but the wheel faces friction and drags behind. This kind of event seems more likely when performing near top speeds. The faster you go the less reaction time you will have.

51 minutes ago, supercurio said:

There was a hole followed by a bump, which lead to what very much looks like a cutout.
I asked if he could share a reframed version where he would show the tire to see if the over-lean was caused by the tire digging in soft ground instead of running out of torque on the bump.

Device reaches its peak performance and safety margin is zero when he hits the bump. The suspension could fail too, just a reminder that in certain angle it could get blocked and remain stiff. I can only assume that: 'without suspension' = powerdrain is higher, than 'with suspension' in these conditions. When you are nearing the top performance even suspension wheel can have this same effect (but prolly less changes of occuring).

 

[supercurio]

12 minutes ago, Tasku said:

When Adam crashed Abrams (if only he would have it on video too) I am pretty sure, in his crash as well the wheel tilted on frontside similar manner, as it does in this crash video. Watch carefully as the wheel is nearing its performance, then hits a bump and as result the wheel is in air already tilted torwards. When he lands back to ground he is at angle. Crash only option.

Agree it's a fairly similar scenario.
The main difference being the Abrams was supposed to have more speed headroom on the Abrams at 55 kph on the speed motor, than Chooch's self reported speed at 60 kph on the torque motor, already the max speed of that wheel.

Yeah you can see continuing to tilt forward in the air, because the wheel was slowed down by the bump more than its rider.
On a second look, it's true that the 40 PSI tire pressure makes the wheel bounce immediately from the bump with the tire not compressing.
It means that the time the wheel has to self-balance when touching the ground is extremely short, and the wheel doesn't have the opportunity to give this super high instantaneous torque to compensate for the fact that it's slowed down by the bump (forward speed energy converted to upward speed)

If the tire pressure had been lower, the time the wheel had in contact with the ground would have been longer to deliver the instantaneous torque, before bouncing back.

The fact that it's a 16" tire also doesn't help here, since for the same bump more energy is redirected upwards vs a 18/19" one.

12 minutes ago, Tasku said:

There has always been reason, why not to push the peak speed in conditions (especially) where road surface is not perfectly even. The higher the speed the smaller the bump on road need to be that this type of event might happen. The momentum carries the riders topside forward but the wheel faces friction and drags behind. This kind of event seems more likely when performing near top speeds. The faster you go the less reaction time you will have.

Device reaches its peak performance and safety margin is zero when he hits the bump. The suspension could fail too, just a reminder that in certain angle it could get blocked and remain stiff. I can only assume that: 'without suspension' = powerdrain is higher, than 'with suspension' in these conditions. When you are nearing the top performance even suspension wheel can have this same effect (but prolly less changes of occuring).

Yes it's interesting to think about.

One could certainly imagine a safety margin that's dynamically adjusting to the riding conditions.
Essentially, when detecting uneven terrain with a bunch of holes and bump (processing accelerometer data): increase safety margin requirements, essentially beeping at lower speed.
It would not save from a single pothole on an otherwise well maintained road, but it could help for off-road situations like that.

[Nick McCutcheon]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

For sure 40 psi seems high. 40 is near "max" recommended air pressure right?

I'm 2x chooch heavy and riding at 28psi even. Then again i don't jump at all. 

To be fair, he may just be riding high PSI to protect the rim. I ride 40 PSI on all of my (18") wheels, and I still get rim dents, but above 40PSI is just too uncomfortable for me, even though I probably should run higher to stop denting. So while I do agree that the benefits of a knobby are better utilized at lower pressures, extreme offroaders and jumpers usually tend to run higher pressures to avoid dents.

[Funky]

56 minutes ago, Nick McCutcheon said:

To be fair, he may just be riding high PSI to protect the rim. I ride 40 PSI on all of my (18") wheels, and I still get rim dents, but above 40PSI is just too uncomfortable for me, even though I probably should run higher to stop denting. So while I do agree that the benefits of a knobby are better utilized at lower pressures, extreme offroaders and jumpers usually tend to run higher pressures to avoid dents.

Well if you don't "jump" around and don't go over curbs at speed - you would not get dents.   I'm 127kg heavy and ride only at 30psi. Yeah i get higher psi = less chance of dented rim, but i like 30psi for my riding needs. I would like higher psi for my self, but wheel starts to act as i would be riding on "knife edge". If i go over 30 psi.  

[Tawpie]

Looks like a pretty normal crash to me... a dirt path at 37 mph on a 16" wheel is not something I would be attempting. It looked to me like when he hit the bump and the wheel came up, his knees bent as they should but that pushed him hard into his push pads, and then pushed his right leg over the pad. The push into the pad started the forward tilt (the wheel was already in the air), and by the time it landed I think he was already 'off' the wheel. Nothing the wheel could have done in my opinion.

As down as he was on the wheel, this looked like rider error to me. Another for the "know your wheel because stuff happens" notebook.

[Jswizzy84]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Looks like a pretty normal crash to me... a dirt path at 37 mph on a 16" wheel is not something I would be attempting. It looked to me like when he hit the bump and the wheel came up, his knees bent as they should but that pushed him hard into his push pads, and then pushed his right leg over the pad. The push into the pad started the forward tilt (the wheel was already in the air), and by the time it landed I think he was already 'off' the wheel. Nothing the wheel could have done in my opinion.

As down as he was on the wheel, this looked like rider error to me. Another for the "know your wheel because stuff happens" notebook.

Yep, I think this just operator error. Riding like a daredevil is just high risk on smaller wheels not much room for error. I doubt InMotion tested going down dirt roads at that speed or intended the wheel to be ridden like that. 

[Richardo]

This makes me wonder how Chooch actually analyzes wheels. Is he trying to rate them all on a one-dimensional scale? 

I haven't ridden either wheel, but it feels like saying the s20 is 'better' than the v12 is not comparing like to like. I wonder how he'd react if he were thinking about how weird it would be to hear someone looking for a dirt bike that would be comfortable on the highway.

Of course here, both wheels are supposed to be off-road wheels, but you still have enduro and motorcross bikes that aren't exactly comparable.

[Esash]

21 minutes ago, Richardo said:

This makes me wonder how Chooch actually analyzes wheels. Is he trying to rate them all on a one-dimensional scale? 

I haven't ridden either wheel, but it feels like saying the s20 is 'better' than the v12 is not comparing like to like. I wonder how he'd react if he were thinking about how weird it would be to hear someone looking for a dirt bike that would be comfortable on the highway.

Of course here, both wheels are supposed to be off-road wheels, but you still have enduro and motorcross bikes that aren't exactly comparable.

Any time somebody has a violent crash like that, take anything they say with a grain of salt for at least 24-48 hours. You've got the shock, the possible mild concussion, the physical pain, he mentioned his neck being sore right after the crash.

In a few days I'm sure he'll have a more level headed analysis and self awareness about his crash.

[Esash]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Looks like a pretty normal crash to me... a dirt path at 37 mph on a 16" wheel is not something I would be attempting. It looked to me like when he hit the bump and the wheel came up, his knees bent as they should but that pushed him hard into his push pads, and then pushed his right leg over the pad. The push into the pad started the forward tilt (the wheel was already in the air), and by the time it landed I think he was already 'off' the wheel. Nothing the wheel could have done in my opinion.

As down as he was on the wheel, this looked like rider error to me. Another for the "know your wheel because stuff happens" notebook.

He might even accidentally sell more v12 HTs, in the same way that Elon Musk accidentally smashing the window on his Tesla Truck actually drove deposits through the roof.

[Nick McCutcheon]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

Well if you don't "jump" around and don't go over curbs at speed - you would not get dents.   I'm 127kg heavy and ride only at 30psi. Yeah i get higher psi = less chance of dented rim, but i like 30psi for my riding needs. I would like higher psi for my self, but wheel starts to act as i would be riding on "knife edge". If i go over 30 psi.  

I agree, I'm not a big fan of the knife edge feeling either. Sometimes I'll drop it down for a short bit just to get that smooth feeling again... lol. Some tires are better at mitigating that than others. Most of my dents have happened on regular roads, which is why I'm a bit cautious with pressures, but I'm basically always travelling at top speed if conditions permit so that's why I need to watch out. But, to your point, this is an issue I've manufactured for myself 

[techyiam]

Other than tire size, what else can the number be in this teaser?

@Cecily Inmotion posted this teaser for the V12 HT.

 

Inmotion Announcement

Edited April 13, 2022 by techyiam