Inmotion V12 High Torque edition

[MEX9]

18 hours ago, Jwheels said:

I was told a month to month and a half for mine but I have also heard others say theirs should be shipping out next week. Where did you order from?

E-rides, UK customer. 

[Wolverine]

 

[Nostris]

That is interesting..and disappointing at the same time. I can only imagine that Adams problems were a ..One Off…. I was also interested in the loose pedal hangers…and the missing screw…Where did it go?? Is it causing a mechanical of electrical problem in the wheel as it rattles around someplace inside the wheel?? ( Stranger things have been know to happen! ) It will be interesting to know if anyone else has had a similar problem…And I also hope Adam does a follow up video to keep us all appraised of the situation. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Nostris

[Jeph]

This is weird. Basically the wheel seems really great but this behavior reported under 80% battery is strange and does not make really sense. Chooch did'nt say anything about that though. If it would be software related both would have felt it the same way. I suspect a bad unit, or bad assembly for WW's. Let us wait for more reviews.

Pedals screws getting loose is really bad. I remember Chooch had this very same issue at some point. But this is something one can fix easily. 

I am still hyped by this wheel and eager to receive it !

[Paul A]

Some viewer comments from WW's video of Inmotion V12, not riding again.

 

lars johannessen

41 minutes ago

My V12 High speed also makes this sound from time to time the wheel cut out (15-20Kmph) and the pedals where also lose after the crash for me too!!! i ended up tearing a tendon and wasted £1762 + customs, shiping and now hospital bills...!

 

 

Bunnyslippers

1 hour ago

Latest batch of V11 have fire issues. In Belgium a guy in the app group burned his hands while pulling the new V11 from his garage. And apparently some V11 are dead on arrival.

[Paul g]

2 hours ago, Jeph said:

This is weird. Basically the wheel seems really great but this behavior reported under 80% battery is strange and does not make really sense. Chooch did'nt say anything about that though. If it would be software related both would have felt it the same way. I suspect a bad unit, or bad assembly for WW's. Let us wait for more reviews.

Pedals screws getting loose is really bad. I remember Chooch had this very same issue at some point. But this is something one can fix easily. 

I am still hyped by this wheel and eager to receive it !

It is not easy to fix. The thread of the aluminium motor brackets breaks easy because it has a small thread- an other InMotion bad design, so you need to buy new brackets- which  will brake again after some use, because of the bad design. The thread breaks because they apply to much torque to the screws in the factory, instead they should glue them in (together) with that rubbish thread they put on to give them more strength, but then the glue would defeat the purpose of the hight adjustment 🤷🏻‍♂️. The more you ride off road (or on uneven road, jumps, stairs, etc.) the faster they will break. Engineering is not easy when your goal is to make cheap things.

A solution for this problem is to make the motor brackets from a stronger Aluminium alloy while preserving the light weight = more expensive,

or use bigger screws with bigger thread and making more space for them on the motor brackets and the ajusting brackets as well.

None of these solutions is cheap. The last one is the cheaper from the manufacturing point of view if it is done at the design stage- but not when is done afterwards, and is  not necessarily better. The first solution is better in our situation, when is difficult to design bigger motor brackets, as it will probably mean redesigning other things as well on the euc.

[Jeph]

24 minutes ago, Paul g said:

the glue would defeat the purpose of the hight adjustment

You're right. I was indeed thinking of loctite addition to fix the issue but it is true that it would be harder to adjust pedal's hight afterwards. But still, it remains manageable, I am not sure we need to modify the height several times. Once the proper hight is found one can secure the screws, and before that, ensure that it is tight enough on a regular basis.

But yes. A first true disappointment for this wheel.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Paul g said:

It is not easy to fix. The thread of the aluminium motor brackets breaks easy because it has a small thread- an other InMotion bad design, so you need to buy new brackets- which  will brake again after some use, because of the bad design. The thread breaks because they apply to much torque to the screws in the factory, instead they should glue them in (together) with that rubbish thread they put on to give them more strength, but then the glue would defeat the purpose of the hight adjustment

This has not been my experience with the Inmotion V12 pedal hangers. I change pedal height from time to time. What I noticed is that the issue is not stemming from the hangers themselves, but rather the bolts.

What I noticed the first time when I went to remove the four pedal bolts on each side, was that the bolts don't unscrew freely. But this is understandable since there could be thread locking compound applied. I cleaned out the bolt threads using a die, and reinstalled without applying thread locking compound. The next time around, I noticed one bolt in particular still doesn't unscrew freely. After I put it through the die, it threaded in freely. However, note that there wasn't any thread locking compound on it. This same experience repeated for a couple more times. In the following round, I dipped the threads of the bolts in Blaster penetrating oil, just before I put the bolts in. Since then, I got the result that I was looking for. The bolts just loosen with a "crack", and then they unthread freely. And when I put the bolts back, they all thread in freely.

I don't use thread locking compound on these bolts because I find the bolts don't loosen by themselves for my use case. Even if they do, I would know the hangers are loose long before I am in danger. The only real question is really how frequently do I have to retighten them. But since these bolts don't loosen at all in my use case, I don't use thread locking on these bolts. But if one is tired of retightening the bolts, should this be the situation, one can always use lock washers as an alternative.

From this experience, I would hypothesize that the bolts are soft.

Edited June 9, 2022 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

Chinese bolts - not Würth much… 

Okay, I’ll fetch my coat…

[techyiam]

8 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Chinese bolts - not Würth much… 

Okay, I’ll fetch my coat…

I guess it depends on how you look at it. I am OK with the bolts because with the knowledge I have now, I can better minimize the chance of causing fatigue failure in the threads of the threaded aluminum alloy holes in the hangers. I guess I am using the lemonade, or glass is half full card. 🙂

[Freeforester]

Quite so; some will see ‘the glass’ as half full, others may take the view it is half empty, all seem to accept it is as yet but a half finished product. Lots of good features, but a few somewhat irritating (and fundamental) flaws. Let’s hope 13 is a luckier number…

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Freeforester said:

but a few somewhat irritating (and fundamental) flaws. Let’s hope 13 is a luckier number…

I think you are quite right on both points. Inmotion got so much right (at least damn close to it, if you compare it to Gotway), yet they manage to screw up on the driver board, firmware, firmware update, and pedal attachment hardware. IMO, they also made a bad choice in the phase wire connectors on the mainboard. 

And for the latter, the V13, they are going to have work for it. Unfortunately, the trend they have recently established with the V11, V12, and V12 HT, doesn't bold well for the V13. Why isn't the V12 HT a slam dunk? And yet the Begode's 134V system is looking fine so far (that was from scratch for the 24 mosfet electronic commutation / inverter). It boggles the mind.

Edited June 10, 2022 by techyiam

[EUC Phenomenon]

9 hours ago, Paul g said:

The thread of the aluminium motor brackets breaks easy because it has a small thread- an other InMotion bad design, so you need to buy new brackets- which  will brake again after some use, because of the bad design. The thread breaks because they apply to much torque to the screws in the factory,

When I received my V12 HS, I moved the pedal height to its lowest setting. I noticed when unscrewing some of the bolts, metal filings were coming out and this was on both sides. Even screwing them in the lowest setting, I was getting the same thing. I was thinking at the time, some of the bolts were damaged and cross threaded. The pedals feel solid but if I move the pedals higher, the bolts may not hold.

Edited June 10, 2022 by EUC Phenomenon

[techyiam]

34 minutes ago, EUC Phenomenon said:

Even screwing them in the lowest setting, I was getting the same thing. I was thinking at the time, some of the bolts were damaged and cross threaded. The pedals feel solid but if I move the pedals higher, the bolts may not hold.

That could have happened to me too, but I fixed the threads on the bolts right away. If I put those bolts back in without fixing the threads first, I would have further cross-thread the threads in the bolt holes in the hangers. Also, I am careful to use a T-handle to torque them down by feel. I only tightened them enough so they don't self-loosen.

[Freeforester]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

That could have happened to me too, but I fixed the threads on the bolts right away. If I put those bolts back in without fixing the threads first, I would have further cross-thread the threads in the bolt holes in the hangers. Also, I am careful to use a T-handle to torque them down by feel. I only tightened them enough so they don't self-loosen.

I’ve seen some very nice quality, CNC machined and what appeared to be Titanium Nitride coated/adonised or similarly finished pedal hangers for a number of models offered by ‘our man in Moskva’ EUC market Alexa’s Instagram feed, if Inmotion have managed to mess these up I’m sure that better than OEM replacements will be available, but it’s simply too bad that they have potentially ‘spoiled the ship for a hap’worth of tar’, the receiving holes may well be re-tapped though, -  always presuming the stock alloy chassis is of suitable quality….

Edited June 10, 2022 by Freeforester

[techyiam]

24 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

if Inmotion have managed to mess these up I’m sure that better than OEM replacements will be available, but it’s simply too bad that they have potentially ‘spoiled the ship for a hap’worth of tar’, the receiving holes may well be re-tapped though, -  always presuming the stock alloy chassis is of suitable quality….

Good to know that aftermarket replacement parts for the hangers will be available. For myself, if I had strip the threads, I would re-tap and get better quality over-sized bolts. I feel the quality of the hangers are fine. I believe the issue is with the soft pedal bolts.

[Paul g]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:09 PM, techyiam said:

This has not been my experience with the Inmotion V12 pedal hangers. I change pedal height from time to time. What I noticed is that the issue is not stemming from the hangers themselves, but rather the bolts.

I only changed my pedal height once, from maximum to the medium. I noticed the metal filings on the thread as well. I presumed it came from the Aluminium hangers and not from the bolts. I didn’t analysed the situation further, as I was so excited to finally go out and ride it for the first time. I remember just that I said to my self “what a shit engineering job- this thing is broken out of the box without being used not at least once!”  I’m surprised to find out from you that the bolt is of a soft material. In engineering you make the bolt of a lower hardness so that you ensure it is the part that fails, not the piece it crews into. The bolt then can be cheaply replaced with a new one. So in theory they followed this principle, but it is obvious they are not fit for purpose when the materials are so soft and the thread so small that it fails even without being put to use. It looks like you screw them in and out several times after you rethread them and they work just fine now? They might have been just over torqued from the factory and this might have deteriorated the threads on both the bolts and the hanger. Any way, thanks! If the V12 will ever function again properly I’ll rethread those bolts as well just as you advised.

 

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Paul g said:

In engineering you make the bolt of a lower hardness so that you ensure it is the part that fails, not the piece it crews into.

Not in the case of when the base metal is aluminum alloy. For example, engine blocks in motorcycles and in many cars these days are made from aluminum alloy, and everyone knows not to over torque in order to avoid stripping the threads. The bolts are not low strength. In fact, for cylinder head bolts, they are usually quite high grade. High end bicycles are another example. In the case of the of the V12 pedal bolts, Inmotion screwed up. The bolts were too soft. Proper torqueing will still deform the bollt threads, and subsequent threading and re-threading will cross-thread the threads in the aluminium alloy bolt holes.

 

7 hours ago, Paul g said:

They might have been just over torqued from the factory and this might have deteriorated the threads on both the bolts and the hanger.

I afraid your situation sounds different from mine. I didn't have metal shaving coming out. I might have been lucky.

Your bolts could have been over-torqued. I doubt it is because the aluminium alloy hangers were not properly heat treated. Another possible cause is cross-threading by the factory guy due to lack of care when threading the bolts. My guess would be over-torqueing, like what you suspected too.

Unfortunately, aluminum alloys are vulnerable to fatigue failure. Its structural strength reduces with the number of stress cycles. And should the applied stress past a certain threshold, the number of stress cycle to failure can be dramatically reduced. A good example to illustrate the issues associated with this is the tightening of the drain plugs in motorcycle engines. The drain plug itself is made of steel. The oil pan is made of aluminum alloy. Some people over-tighten the drain plug. Because of this action, the thread can over be stressed such that even if the drain plug is never to be over-torqued again, the threads can still strip prematurely.

Cole at EEVEES warned viewers about stripping threads in the hangers in his V12 driver board replacement video.

When I saw that I knew immediately what he meant.

In your case, since the strength of the threads in the hangers are already compromised, if I were in your position, I would not do what I have done with mine. I would instead get sufficiently strong bolts. Also chase the threads in the hangers. And appliy the blue Loctite to the threads. Yes, this implies that every time you want to remove the pedal, you would need to clean the threads of the blue Loctite before re-assembly. If the threads are too far gone, you may need to re-tap to go over-size or install inserts.

There is a high probability that threads in your hangers are going to be sensitive to tightening torque.

 

EDIT:

The other possibility for the stripping of threads could be corrosion related. I know the steel pedal rods are seized in the pedals by corrosion. I have no need to remove them now, so I have not tried too hard. I don't want to use overzealous persuasion, and damage the pedals. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by techyiam

[Paul g]

@techyiam Thanks! I appreciate your knowledge and advice. I might need to buy replacements for the pedal hangers and better quality screws, with the condition the V12 will ever be drivable, otherwise is not worth spending one more penny on it in the uncertain situation we have right now. 

[ien]

So...

229km, no issues 

[Rawnei]

Don't know kilometers but I've ridden around 5-6 times now at various speeds, bumps etc, feels like I can trust the board swap by now.

[MEX9]

Has anybody received an update on when they are getting their v12 ht?

 

MEX

[TiguriusRides]

On 6/11/2022 at 1:18 PM, techyiam said:

In your case, since the strength of the threads in the hangers are already compromised, if I were in your position, I would not do what I have done with mine. I would instead get sufficiently strong bolts. Also chase the threads in the hangers. And appliy the blue Loctite to the threads. Yes, this implies that every time you want to remove the pedal, you would need to clean the threads of the blue Loctite before re-assembly. If the threads are too far gone, you may need to re-tap to go over-size or install inserts.

Hello there !

Got a question since you seem to know a lot about this whole V12 pedal assembly. Any clue what bolt to look for to replace the original ones ? Model/size/material to get ?

Thanks a lot !

[Funky]

1 hour ago, TiguriusRides said:

Hello there !

Got a question since you seem to know a lot about this whole V12 pedal assembly. Any clue what bolt to look for to replace the original ones ? Model/size/material to get ?

Thanks a lot !

Unscrew.

Take the screw to hardware store.

Compare.

???

Profit.

 

Or simply measure the screw length/diameter. That way you will know 100% truth.  

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, TiguriusRides said:

Got a question .... Any clue what bolt to look for to replace the original ones ? Model/size/material to get ?

Based on my measurements and the tap and die size I used:

Metric, steel, Socket Head Cap screw:  M5-0.8 x 14mm, Black Oxide finish, fully threaded, (optional: stainless steel)

Grade 5.8, 8.8 for strength

Length = 14mm

Socket head dimensions = 8mm diameter x 5.5mm height. Note that the head is recessed so the head cannot be much larger in diameter.

Nominal screw size = M5

Pitch of thread = 0.8 mm

An example of screws that will not fit, but will come very close. They may look like they will fit but they may not. The reason is because the diameter of the socket head is 8.7mm. The diameter of the recess hole is 8.9mm. The diameter of the original screw 8.1mm.

https://www.amazon.com/12-9-Grade-Alloy-Steel-Quantity/dp/B08P1JVNYK/ref=sr_1_15?crid=2EO9G4JVLJQAD&keywords=m5-0.8+x+14mm&qid=1657052642&sprefix=M5-0.8+x+14%2Caps%2C151&sr=8-15

Edited July 5, 2022 by techyiam