Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

They have been humble with the name "Challenger", they know that before its definitive release Begode will release the "Leader" one 

Maybe but if the competition is on numbers only it holds no value to me. 

There are a lot of others things to look at that makes much more sense to me and to get hassle free ownership. 

Making a Bugatti Veuron EUC like wheel makes not me want to buy it. Too expensive and too like practical use. In that regard I would much rather buy a Volvo XC60 (the XC90 is  too big for me and the area I used a car). Just to compare from a different business.

So I would rather have a V11 mk II where you could have batteri size to match your range, an upgrated control board to have bigger electronic and electrical safety margins. An redesign of the motor/bearing so you have more protected bearings. and a design language that makes service modular to make it easier and faster. and to have a much better way to monitor battery health to avoid or at lease minimize risk of battery fire.

 

[jimjam.nyc]

All though this wheel may not be for me, I am glad they are making it.

I hope they take some of the new things they are doing for safety and bring them to their other models of wheels. 

Inmotion needs a higher end wheel it's missing from their lineup. 

I am sure they will bring the advancements to some of the smaller lighter wheels.

I love the v12, I am not sure I need more speed.. but would love having redundancy and possibly options for suspension or bigger wheel in that format. 

The Challenger may be a bit much for alot of people, but it may be a step to a new platform that can be adapted and scaled bigger/smaller.

 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

I get the feeling there are quite a few people reacting with a sense that they are going too far with the motor. I do agree. For me these wheels are still something that are comparable to e-bikes and ridden on bike paths. 50 km/h is already enough for me and everything beyond that is wasted. However, I do think there are much more good things in the motor video than just more speed. 

I am not one of those. Also, I don't share the notion that euc's are safe only when ridden in bike lanes, bike paths, or side streets. So, when ridden outside of these confines, I would prefer a much higher free-spin speed to give me the head room I seek. However, I may not need 140+ km/h.

 

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

I guess this wheel is there to make Inmotion known for performance. I do think they know the market is limited. It will be expensive but will still sell well because there are so many people who just want biggest and best no matter if they need them or not. It's for American market. They are used to buying big trucks for daily usage also. 

There may be some truth to this, but I don't think it is completely it. I think there are actually real uses for it, locally or in the US. When I first started, I really thought 30 km/h may be it. My wheel was bouncing all over the place, and I could not feel calm and secure, like I would be on a motorcycle. So, I thought maybe a suspension wheel would help. My eyes were on the S22 initially, but things didn't look good. It was going to take a long time for it to come out. So instead, I decided to buy an interm wheel. I was at a crossroad here, to forgo the 2nd gen suspension criterion and buy the V11, or buy the V12. I ended up with V12. The V12 was better than the T3, but it still didn't give the stable and planted feel I was seeking. Months past, and finally the Master and S22 started trickling out. But there were too many early batch issues. So, I thought perhaps I should give the Sherman or equivalent a shot. In the meantime, I was steadily improving the V12. And very recently, everything came together. The scooter tube-type tire, modified lube in bearings, latest firmware, and new driver board replacement changed everything. What I thought impossible came true. I now have a wheel that feels, refined, stable, planted, and secure. I no longer feel apprehensive about going over the bigger bumps or other road imperfections. I simply don't feel that I will lose control when I do.

So now, I feel confident going 50+ km/h on a 16" wheel with stock pedals and no power pads. I am completely happy with my V12 now. Maybe higher discharge rate cells would be more ideal, but that is about it.

Going back to use cases outside the confines of bike paths, I feel that there are opportunities to travel on main roads for urban travels at certain time of day, and in certain parts of the city, and even higher speeds on back roads, or highways with a bike lane, outside the city. This is based on my extrapolation of my experiences riding motorcycles. I would not have consider this before, because I couldn't feel confident enough with the wheel.

I am now open to explore this avenue when my pads, spike pedals, and extra gear get here. If everything goes well, I may be interested in the V13, or competitors. I lost interest in finding a replacement for the V12. However, I am interested in replacing my T3 with a premium wheel that weighs no more than 50 lbs, with no gyro effects. However, it needs to feel like an extension of my myself, like when I skate with a pair of inline skates. I don't want to feel like I am riding on a wheel. I have the V12, or V13 for that.

Edited July 16, 2022 by techyiam

[conecones]

For reasons already stated, this wheel looks to be out of reach/not suitable for a good number of riders but I hope the new design elements (thicker motor windings, backup hall sensor, extra durable rim) trickles down to the smaller future wheels and sets a new "standard" for other brands to match.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I love the v12, I am not sure I need more speed..

I am in the same boat, except that I wouldn't mind more head room, but not at the expense of more weight and less agility. Hence, I am back to the V12. For me, the V13 doesn't replace the V12.

[Cerbera]

It's lovely to see this going on, and new levels of performance and safety being realised, but I think very soon we are going to find the limits of what is a good idea to do whilst standing up... I have to say that is probably too fast for me. Or am I just thinking that cos I ordered a master ?

[techyiam]

27 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I have to say that is probably too fast for me. Or am I just thinking that cos I ordered a master ?

No worries. You can think of the Master's top speed as a stepping stone to the V13's 100+km/h top speed. If you are not worried about getting the Master, you are already well past the point of worrying about top speeds.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

The odd part is they were surprised how much I praised the V11, and I think it is down to social media.

It's not social media. Looks like Inmotion have the same problem the other manufacturers have: they don't really use/ride their own wheels. They're not building wheels for themselves. This is why manufacturers make so many baffling decisions that any rider immediately (and rightly) complains about - they just don't understand some things that are obvious to any rider!

I think the V11 is secretly (or not so secretly) Inmotions best wheel. Such a goddamn nice commuter!! And the price is quite ok. Why oh why did they never quickly update it? 100V (V12 board already exists), automatically giving it a bit more battery (1500Wh -> 1800Wh) and speed - that would be such an easy, no-brainer upgrade. Oh well, same reason the V10F has languished and never been updated. They can do it, as the V8 line shows...

Maybe after the V13, some of its innovations will trickle down to revisions of their existing wheels?

[techyiam]

19 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's not social media. Looks like Inmotion have the same problem the other manufacturers have: they don't really use/ride their own wheels. They're not building wheels for themselves. This is why manufacturers make so many baffling decisions that any rider immediately (and rightly) complains about - they just don't understand some things that are obvious to any rider!

When I go to browse various euc dealers' websites, often I find that the V11 is the best or one of the best sellers. So there is no way, Inmotion doesn't know the V11 is selling well. They know the sales volume of the V11, and all their other wheels. Maybe because of this fact, they may not want to mess with it. Why fix it if it is not broken, right? 

The other thing is the Sherman is also one of the best sellers. And as for pre-orders, both the S22 and the Master seemed to be doing well. All these wheels are in the 78 -85 lbs range, not exactly light. But more importantly, they are not beginners wheel.

Since Inmotion knows their V11 doesn't have high capability like the Sherman, it isn't farfetched that Inmotion was surprised when a veteran rider like @Unventor not praising the Sherman, but instead the V11.

[wstuart]

4 hours ago, UniVehje said:

Definitely this is the way to go. It is impossible to make a wheel variant suitable for every need. A modular design would be much better. Everybody can choose battery configuration for their weight/price/range needs. Tire, suspension and pad needs are also very personal and could be chosen by the user. 

---

I get the feeling there are quite a few people reacting with a sense that they are going too far with the motor. I do agree. For me these wheels are still something that are comparable to e-bikes and ridden on bike paths. 50 km/h is already enough for me and everything beyond that is wasted. However, I do think there are much more good things in the motor video than just more speed. 

I guess this wheel is there to make Inmotion known for performance. I do think they know the market is limited. It will be expensive but will still sell well because there are so many people who just want biggest and best no matter if they need them or not. It's for American market. They are used to buying big trucks for daily usage also. 

My dream wheel has not been made yet but all the components have already been made. Nobody just hasn't put them all in one wheel. 

Battery: 2400-3200 Wh, done by Begode and Veteran

Tire: 18x3" done in most wheels

Suspension: done in many versions, they're all good enough

Speed: 50 km/h, done in many wheels

Reliability: done in some wheels

Comfort: done in many narrow wheels

Good light: V11 has nailed it 

Big pedals: most are fine already

Seated riding: Many wheels offer good options

Just upgrade the V11 with bigger battery, better reliability and maybe up the voltage for those who want it. Suspension could be upgraded also. That's it. That's the wheel I want. V13 will be awesome for some specific use cases but will also have too many compromises for most use cases. It will compete well with Monster, Abrams and EX20S. For V11, 18XL, MSP, Sherman and S22 riders it will feel too heavy and be too expensive. To upgrade from these to V13 you will lose many benefits from the smaller wheels just to have the potential speed of +70 km/h. Inmotion would be wise to offer a lighter version limited to 60 km/h for those who don't need more and want a lighter wheel. This version could have an 18x3" tire also. The top version would function as a halo product and the lighter version would be the one most people 

Done!

You wanna buy my EX?

[BKW]

I wouldn't even want to go that fast, not even close lol. The speed safety margin is nice though

Edited July 16, 2022 by ETAonTheEUC

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I think the V11 is secretly (or not so secretly) Inmotions best wheel. Such a goddamn nice commuter!! And the price is quite ok. Why oh why did they never quickly update it? 100V (V12 board already exists), automatically giving it a bit more battery (1500Wh -> 1800Wh) and speed - that would be such an easy, no-brainer upgrade.

Yeah, I would have bought this and still would. I would probably sell the S22 that I haven't even received yet and get this if they announced it right now. 

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe after the V13, some of its innovations will trickle down to revisions of their existing wheels?

This is what I'm most excited about after the video on the motor. I'm definitely excited about V13 and maybe will even buy it. But it wouldn't me my only wheel as it (probably) as too many compromises. But the real promise here is all the other wheels after they've learned to make V13 flagship. And the hope for same quality but just lighter version. 

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

I don't share the notion that euc's are safe only when ridden in bike lanes, bike paths, or side streets. So, when ridden outside of these confines, I would prefer a much higher free-spin speed to give me the head room I seek. However, I may not need 140+ km/h.

 

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

I think there are actually real uses for it, locally or in the US. When I first started, I really thought 30 km/h may be it. My wheel was bouncing all over the place, and I could not feel calm and secure, like I would be on a motorcycle

I have no disagreements here. My point is more that at some point the chase for more top speed starts to require compromises in other areas. So far all the high speed wheels have also been really good for lower speeds as well. No problem with riding the Sherman, S22, V11, MSP, RS, V12 etc. at 25-40 km/h and enjoy a relatively nimble and small yet stable and powerful wheel. Same wheel for many kinds of riders: commuters, bike path riders (Europeans), car lane speedsters (Americans), and off-roaders. V13 seems to go towards Monster style that only attracts certain types of riders. Nothing wrong with that and I'm personally also gravitating towards wanting one of those wheels just for comfortable long range rides. But it feels like buying a van because you might need to haul big things twice a year. For mixed riding these big wheels are not the best option. 

It's like that Duracell phone a few years back when everybody wanted bigger batteries. At some point bigger stops being better. When you have enough more doesn't make it better. Very few wanted to carry this monster in their pocket but it probably had a small niche market anyway. I have no problem with 50-60 kg and 100 km/h unicycles but at that point I might look at two wheeled e-motorcycles instead. 

[jmsjms]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but I watched the promo from Inmotion. So, from what I understand there will be 2 sensors to prevent cutout during riding (which was what everyone was hoping for the manufacturers to start making).... Does that mean that it will be the safest wheel? I don't mean to sound stupid, but since engineering isn't my thing, is it possible that some other kind of cutout can still happen and disable the 2 sensors... and shut off the engine?

I am lucky that my wheel has never had a cutout during riding, but I've had it several times during turning it on in the first 5 seconds. Being on the skinny side and hardly having any fat on my body, if my wheel was to cut out, my situation would be quite serious.... So I was actually starting to imagine a wheel that will have redundancy to prevent cutout built into it... and finally this one seems to be the first one that I know of.

[Tawpie]

58 minutes ago, jmsjms said:

2 sensors to prevent cutout during riding

The way I interpreted the video is that they've added a second set of hall sensors so that if one set fails, it'll revert to the backup. Provided it works as expected, it should prevent a cutout due to a hall sensor failure, but honestly, hall sensors are really reliable and most cutouts are due to other reasons.

 

1 hour ago, jmsjms said:

Does that mean that it will be the safest wheel?

I believe having redundant sensors makes it a safer wheel, but by itself the backup hall sensors don't qualify it for 'safest'. KS has a backup system in the S22 but I'm pretty certain nobody has tested it to see how well it works. But any backup is better than no backup, provided it actually works.

1 hour ago, jmsjms said:

if my wheel was to cut out

The very best thing you can do to reduce the chance of a cutout is to ride well within the capabilities of your wheel. When you do that, you're down to hardware failures as the cause of a cutout. Hardware failures do happen, but they are relatively rare and have largely been MOSFET failures, not hall sensor failures.

[Robse]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

The way I interpreted the video is that they've added a second set of hall sensors so that if one set fails, it'll revert to the backup. Provided it works as expected, it should prevent a cutout due to a hall sensor failure, but honestly, hall sensors are really reliable and most cutouts are due to other reasons.

 

Text from the video: "to provide extra safety we implemented redundant hall sensor systems, in case either one fails while riding the other one can take over the task to make sure no cutout happens"

as @Tawpie :  i don't see any safety in this regarding cutout.  The hall sensors cant prevent loss of power due to mosfet failure, overheated / fried board, blown fuses, to low voltage and to high demand and what else can happen on this chinese crap that we gladly are riding

Edited July 16, 2022 by Robse

[jmsjms]

16 minutes ago, Robse said:

Text from the video: "to provide extra safety we implemented redundant hall sensor systems, in case either one fails while riding the other one can take over the task to make sure no cutout happens"

as @Tawpie :  i don't see any safety in this regarding cutout.  The hall sensors cant prevent loss of power due to cmos failure, overheated / fried board, blown fuses, to low voltage and to high demand and what else can happen on this chinese crap that we gladly are riding

Oh man.... What would it take to create a wheel that will either:

1) Not allow you to start ride it because "xyz issue has been detected."

2) During riding it will start beeping an alarm, decelerate and shut off because "xyz issue has been detected."

I wish all manufacturers start making wheels like that so that no one ever has any type of cut off. Rocket engineers do that all the time.

Edited July 16, 2022 by jmsjms

[Tawpie]

Just now, jmsjms said:

I wish all manufacturers start making wheels like that so that no one ever has any type of cut off.

Wouldn't that be nice? Still, somebody would figure out a way, I have faith in the community.

[Robse]

6 minutes ago, jmsjms said:

Oh man.... What would it take to create a wheel that will either:

1) Not allow you to start ride it because "xyz issue has been detected."

2) During riding it will start beeping an alarm, decelerate and shut off because "xyz issue has been detected."

I wish all manufacturers start making wheels like that so that no one ever has any type of cut off.

The wheel can't just decelerate on its own - the rider would faceplant.  We already have beeps and tiltback,  but some riders like to take it to the limit and 1% further...  What we need is wheels with reliable redundant electronics all the way round - not just a hall sensor.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Robse

[techyiam]

27 minutes ago, Robse said:

The wheel can't just decelerate on its own - the rider would faceplant.

I think it can. For example, on my V12, when I cruise along on level ground, and then encounter a slope, when I descend, the wheel prevents me from going faster and faster by itself.

[alcatraz]

58 minutes ago, Robse said:

and what else can happen on this chinese crap that we gladly are riding

[Robse]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I think it can. For example, on my V12, when I cruise along on level ground, and then encounter a slope, when I descend, the wheel prevents me from going faster and faster by itself.

Yes, but it does not brake ;-)

[alcatraz]

The pwm-based tiltback feature in the Begode forum is a step in the right direction of zero-cutouts.

[techyiam]

10 hours ago, UniVehje said:

My point is more that at some point the chase for more top speed starts to require compromises in other areas.

10 hours ago, UniVehje said:

But it feels like buying a van because you might need to haul big things twice a year.

I also think for most riders, V13 and the like are going to continue to be niche wheels. For me, my V12 is my primary wheel. But I would choose to ride the T3 when I need to bring along a wheel that is lighter and more compact, or when I want a wheel that feels like it's an extension of my body. The T3 won't be a niche wheel because new riders usually grow from smaller, lighter wheels to bigger and heavier wheels. But many will not continue onto the big heavy crusiers.

Actually, I am not certain that I need a wheel like the V13. But right now, I am excited to explore that option. My main motivation comes from wanting to eventually be able to travel to further away places, without having to resort to a car or a motorcycle. And the extended headroom would be icing on a cake. I think with high density cells, these wheels may become more popular. Having range, and being able to shorten travel time may appeal to more riders.

Edited July 17, 2022 by techyiam

[techyiam]

25 minutes ago, Robse said:

Yes, but it does not brake ;-)

Techically, braking is accomplished by applying a reverse current, thus a reverse torque. Maintaining a constant speed down a slope also requires reverse torque. 🙂

[Nick McCutcheon]

I'm VERY excited for this wheel. I love my V1 Master, but it's already too slow for me. It beeps at 51mph which I usually cruise at (wind and voltage sag will decrease that number), but I've gone up to 55.5 and I regularly hit 53. I want to hit 56 someday like Alien Rides did, but that's something I would need to prepare for. Maybe I'll like the P42A or 40T version better once they become obtainable.

Unrelated, but I have no idea how that one guy on YouTube didn't cut out going 57 (90kmh) on his MPro, he must have had a really strong tailwind or something.