New Veteran "Abrams" 22-inch Wheel

[The Fat Unicyclist]

26 minutes ago, Unbihexium said:

Can we all just take a moment to appreciate how well they've tucked everything in on this wheel? The bottom of the wheel has nothing poking out beyond the footplates and will definitely not snag corners with so much clearance. Plus the rest of the body that extends beyond the wheel seems to be entirely protected by the roll cage.

We need to remember though that this is a digital rendering... The final unit may have some variation...

[RockyTop]

I like it!! And it looks great.
Am I the only one that is not in favor of the 21700 batteries? It seems that the 21700 batteries have not been a good thing. Am I wrong? Are they going to use used Tesla batteries? I hope not! 

[gon2fast]

11 hours ago, null said:

should be 116V

 

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe it will be 116V and the Abrams will be a crazy speed king.

upgrading.

[.....]

25 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

 

upgrading.

You assume too much. Havent we learned yet... New doesnt neccessarily mean upgrade, it simply means new problems. GIve it a year bro, no need to keep up with the Jones', as your cool points were lost as soon as you stood atop a unicycle. lol

[GothamMike]

On 7/31/2021 at 3:19 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Dead in a ditch on the side of the road - seems fitting for a EUC as well

Another reason why they are not named after American generals, but famous tanks. Sherman burned a large swath of Georgia. 

[eucVibes]

 

[gon2fast]

22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

You assume too much.

You assume too little LOL.

Jokes aside, I secure an early place in line and if the wheel does not pan out as more information is released then I move my money elsewhere! I usually have deposit on all new wheels when they are announced or in this particular case, before it was announced.

I have options!

 

 

 

[.....]

11 minutes ago, gon2fast said:

You assume too little LOL.

Jokes aside, I secure an early place in line and if the wheel does not pan out as more information is released then I move my money elsewhere! I usually have deposit on all new wheels when they are announced or in this particular case, before it was announced.

I have options!

 

 

 

interest free savings account, I likee...

[gon2fast]

Veteran's last offering has been very enjoyable so count me in. I highly doubt it will fizzle, but the 21700s are a step back IMHO. There is some chatter as to how they will support a higher voltage, but that is all rumor for now.

[Duke EUCem]

Fingers crossed that they mean modular batteries/battery packs for future proofing with the current "battery shortage." Perhaps you can make this wheel a 3,500 WAH wheel using more compact batteries/battery packs in the future in what seems to be a larger casing build than the Sherman. The 21700s are larger batteries in size as well and could make up for the bulkiness on the sides of the wheel. $3,700 for a wheel is a bit steep for me though $3,000 or low $3,000 on the other hand is very enticing. Aside from that it looks good. It seems they will be using the same trolley handle but I'm not sure.

[wheelyboy]

Hopefully 40mph top speed is a given given the Sherman's reputation and the obvious comparison to the monster pro. Waterproofing = nice. Modularity: interesting. Gonna have to wait and see what that means.

 

The price does seem pretty high especially considering the smaller battery pack.

 

Still, very interested since I did not get a Sherman and I like the rugged design.

 

126v would be a game changer 🤯. But also pretty nerve wracking since it's new tech.

[Planemo]

44 minutes ago, wheelyboy said:

126v would be a game changer 🤯. But also pretty nerve wracking since it's new tech.

I honestly dont think it's a 'game changer', assuming you are coming from the speed aspect. At least not like the 100v MSX was or possibly not even the Sherman given its not massively faster than the RS HS.

I truly believe we are already near the limit of what is suitable on a single wheel. Yes we will always have the speed freaks who will be happy to try and ride at 60+ mph but I cant help but feel the customer base for wheels that can do it would be diminishingly small. The wind resistance, huge battery power and monster motor/electronics required for 50+ mph makes it unsustainable, irrelevant for 99% of users and only really of benefit to willy-wavers at the pub. Not to mention the inherent risks of a single wheel at these speeds, even at 24".

The Sherman is so good because it provides awesome headroom at 35~40mph and yet remains, for the large part, an everyday 18" wheel with lots of range without being as massive and unweildly as say a Monster. It will take a serious amount of headroom to run another 10mph on top of that and even if 126v is available, is the current? Even if it is, at 50+ mph the range will be absolutely hammered, especially with 'only' 2700Wh.

I really dont want to be a naysayer of ANY new wheel and wish Veteran all the best with this project but I do think we are already close to where we can be for an EUC when it comes to speed. I think they would be better off building wheels that specialise in certain areas like say stick with 100v but offer it with maybe 4000+wh, work on a suspension project or even try and hit the V12/KS16X/Nikola/MSP market which lets face it is the largest segment of buyers (and therefore turnover/profit) by far. I'm not their business planner though so they can do what they like, I presume they just want to be able to say they produce the fastest wheel in the world which is fine and dandy, I just wonder how many they will actually sell given the power requirements needed for it Vs how good it will be anywhere else in its use case.

Flame suit on... 

That said I bet the NYC boys will be all over it 

[wheelyboy]

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

I honestly dont think it's a 'game changer', assuming you are coming from the speed aspect. At least not like the 100v MSX was or possibly not even the Sherman given its not massively faster than the RS HS.

I truly believe we are already near the limit of what is suitable on a single wheel. Yes we will always have the speed freaks who will be happy to try and ride at 60+ mph but I cant help but feel the customer base for wheels that can do it would be diminishingly small. The wind resistance, huge battery power and monster motor/electronics required for 50+ mph makes it unsustainable, irrelevant for 99% of users and only really of benefit to willy-wavers at the pub. Not to mention the inherent risks of a single wheel at these speeds, even at 24".

The Sherman is so good because it provides awesome headroom at 35~40mph and yet remains, for the large part, an everyday 18" wheel with lots of range without being as massive and unweildly as say a Monster. It will take a serious amount of headroom to run another 10mph on top of that and even if 126v is available, is the current? Even if it is, at 50+ mph the range will be absolutely hammered, especially with 'only' 2700Wh.

I really dont want to be a naysayer of ANY new wheel and wish Veteran all the best with this project but I do think we are already close to where we can be for an EUC when it comes to speed. I think they would be better off building wheels that specialise in certain areas like say stick with 100v but offer it with maybe 4000+wh, work on a suspension project or even try and hit the V12/KS16X/Nikola/MSP market which lets face it is the largest segment of buyers (and therefore turnover/profit) by far. I'm not their business planner though so they can do what they like, I presume they just want to be able to say they produce the fastest wheel in the world which is fine and dandy, I just wonder how many they will actually sell given the power requirements needed for it Vs how good it will be anywhere else in its use case.

Flame suit on... 

That said I bet the NYC boys will be all over it 

For me the draw of 126v would be not the speed but the torque. Can we have a 40-50mph top speed wheel like the sherman, but with torque comparable to MSP HT? I guess I don't know enough about electric motors to know whether or not the higher voltage solves that problem.

[meepmeepmayer]

57 minutes ago, wheelyboy said:

I guess I don't know enough about electric motors to know whether or not the higher voltage solves that problem.

You could build the motor for higher torque. The higher voltage can balance out the lower max speed this would imply if the voltage wasn't increased.

E.g. 100.8V -> 126V is 25% difference, so you could have 25% more torque at all points with the same top speed as a 100V wheel. Or a bit higher speed and a still bit more torque when you distribute that extra 25% between them.

Not sure how efficiency comes into play here, but in the end higher voltage just seems to be better.

I absolutely agree that wheels need more torque, if it were me like 2x or even more.

[Planemo]

19 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I absolutely agree that wheels need more torque, if it were me like 2x or even more.

See, its comments like this that make me think I must be a real wussy rider 

I dont think I need any more torque cos I've never overleaned any of my wheels lol

[meepmeepmayer]

38 minutes ago, Planemo said:

See, its comments like this that make me think I must be a real wussy rider 

I dont think I need any more torque cos I've never overleaned any of my wheels lol

For me it's not about overleaning, it's about effortless braking. I hate that you have to lean in to really brake. Ideally, it could be done with a flick of the ankle. Same for accelerating strongly at low speeds. I (personally) want a wheel that can be fine controlled at (very) low speeds extremely easily. For mountains. I want to feel in total control on a 45° hill, whether is up or down.

Maybe the braking is also an ergonomics question, or firmware...

[shellac]

32 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

For me it's not about overleaning, it's about effortless braking. I hate that you have to lean in to really brake. Ideally, it could be done with a flick of the ankle. Same for accelerating strongly at low speeds. I (personally) want a wheel that can be fine controlled at (very) low speeds extremely easily. For mountains. I want to feel in total control on a 45° hill, whether is up or down.

Maybe the braking is also an ergonomics question, or firmware...

I don’t think more torque would do that at all. As I understand it effortless acceleration and braking is related to wheel size, ie you’d want to go to a smaller wheel for that effect.

What more torque would do is prevent a braking cutout when you’re aggressively leaning back to brake. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here. 

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe the braking is also an ergonomics question, or firmware...

I think you will find it is.

If you haven't overleaned a wheel then you don't need more torque, whether thats going forwards OR backwards. So 99.9% of the time it's down to technique. There are of course a couple of occasions when you could overlean whilst braking (being at near to 100% battery for example) but thats not a lack of torque issue.

Theres every chance I haven't overleaned my wheels because I don't superman going forwards, nor have I ever been in such an emergency stop situation where I need to sit down behind the back of the wheel. Theres every chance I will need to some day though, and if the wheel overleans then I can come back to this thread and say 'I needed more torque!' But until then....it's not a 'want' on my list. I am happy I am not getting near the limits though, seeing what some riders do with their wheels (Kuji 'Superman' and Fantomas 'arse scraping the floor when braking' for example).

As Shellac says, diameter is the No1 factor when it comes to whether a wheel feels torquey or not.

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

For me it's not about overleaning, it's about effortless braking. I hate that you have to lean in to really brake. Ideally, it could be done with a flick of the ankle.

As the other guys wrote, “zippiness” is not related to the maximum torque. The performance specs of a wheel are all maximums: Speed, torque, incline angle, etc. Everything else being equal, you don’t know where the maximum is until you’ve asked for more than there is available. “Effortlessness” is not a measurable maximum value.

 Ask yourself this: Does the RS19 HT accelerate with less effort than the RS19 HS or the 84V MSX?

 It does not.

 The “feeling of torque”, “zippiness”, or “effortless acceleration” is not related to the maximum available torque of the wheel.

What probably messes up many people’s thought process about this is the fact that unlike in any other vehicle, in self-balancing vehicles all the power is used to keep the vehicle upright. Not to accelerate. For the wheel to accelerate, the rider must create an unbalance for the wheel to correct. And it suddenly becomes an issue (almost) only of geometry.

 More (WAY more) here:

 

[meepmeepmayer]

More torque means more torque, at all points, right? You can have a smaller tire (which automatically gives you torque while costing max speed) or you can wind your motor for more torque (and also automatically get less max speed this way).

So unless torque (at all points) and zippyness are unrelated, I don't see your argumants.

Anyways, not to digress from the topic at hand (the Abrams!), if it indeed has a higher voltage, I hope they don't put all of that into a higher top speed, but also into more torque.

[Planemo]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

More torque means more torque, at all points, right?

You're still missing the point meep  torque and zippyness are indeed unrelated.

With an EUC, you're not reaching the max torque it's capable of until you overlean. If you are not reaching the overlean point, you aren't using all the available torque. So yes, you could wind ANY motor for more torque, but if you don't need it, why bother? Lets say you wind a Sherman motor for monster torque and 20mph max. Bundles of potential torque. Oodles. But if you're not using superman leans to access it you won't accelerate any faster than a stock Sherman 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

More torque means more torque, at all points, right?

Wrong.

If you have a higher top speed, does it go faster also at 30mph?

No it doesn’t.

If your wheel can climb steeper hills, does it also go steeper at half the incline?

No it doesn’t.

 If you take a sip from a glass of milk, do you get more milk in your mouth if the glass is bigger?

 No you don’t.

 If you have more peak torque, does your wheel now stay even more upright at standstill?

No it doesn’t.

 The only thing the wheel does is to try to stay upright. If your old wheel can already stay upright when you ride, no amount of top speed, peak torque, battery capacity, or lightning red stripes will make it accelerate or go faster if you ride in the same manner.

If the new wheel would accelerate any faster than you ask for, the wheel wouldn’t stay upright. It would flip you on your back. It would no longer be a self-balancing vehicle, as it would not balance. It would be a crazy wheel out of control. The only thing it will do is to try to stay upright. Getting it to accelerate is a byproduct.
 

Quote

You can have a smaller tire (which automatically gives you torque while costing max speed) or you can wind your motor for more torque (and also automatically get less max speed this way).

Torque is a confusing word to use because you talk about two different measures above. A smaller tire will shorten the distance you need to lean to apply X amount of torque. On a larger wheel you need to lean further for the same amount of torque.

 What the different motor windings achieve, is increase the maximum peak torque the motor can provide. It doesn’t affect the torque or acceleration in any other way.

Quote

So unless torque (at all points) and zippyness are unrelated, I don't see your argumants.

Peak torque and the amount of torque the wheel uses to balance are indeed usually unrelated.

Quote

Anyways, not to digress from the topic at hand (the Abrams!), if it indeed has a higher voltage, I hope they don't put all of that into a higher top speed, but also into more torque.

A 22” wheel is a beast to get to accelerate as is, so I would think that an increase in the peak torque wouldn’t be necessary.

Edited August 3, 2021 by mrelwood

[yoos]

Ecodrift just opened early-bird preorder on the Abrams at 193k₽ = 2640$ (no warranty) or 213k₽ = 2920$ (with warranty). The rather low price is due to this being a half-blind decision  since some key specs are still unknown. According to ecodrift, Veteran plans to launch a first batch of 200 wheels and ecodrift wants to get in on the first 30. Full specs will be announced in a week (ecodrift doesn't know them either, so I guess it is still undecided perhaps). The wheel is being tested currently (by veteran). Wheels are supposed to be ready to ship in a month. Since specs are not fully known yet Veteran allows to withdraw the pre-order if finalized specs happen to be unsatisfactory.

[Planemo]

27 minutes ago, null said:

A wheel with more torque would allow you to ride more aggressively though.

Not if you werent anywhere near to overleaning it to start with 

Sorry just thought I'd drop that in.

I'll stop now

[Ben Hatfield]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:04 PM, RockyTop said:

I like it!! And it looks great.
Am I the only one that is not in favor of the 21700 batteries? It seems that the 21700 batteries have not been a good thing. Am I wrong? Are they going to use used Tesla batteries? I hope not! 

I'm no expert, but I think you want these 21700 for improved power delivery (potential) over the 18650s used in the Sherm. 

 

I haven't gotten satisfactory explanation for my observations, but on EUC world app my Sherman has far more battery sag than my EX.N.  Sherm will sag up to 25% at higher speeds, meaning at 90% battery at rest, I'll see 65% when going 35mph+.  On my EX.N?  there is very little battery sag at high speed, between 5-10%.  I fully admit this may have to do with firmware or how the app is receiving data (maybe battery/motor combination also plays a role?). 

But I have a feeling for the new higher voltage, one will want these 21700s