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New Veteran "Abrams" 22-inch Wheel


xiiijojjo

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I rather see the four inexpensive screws sheering off than cracking the expensive controller module casing. Nothing wrong with using sacrificial screws.

First of all, if seated riding is not considered, then the main structural members that has to support the main load (the rider), is just the pedal hangers and the pedals themselves. The weight of the controller and battery packs would be considered secondary load. And the structure to support that doesn't has to be as strong.

Since, I have never sat on my Abrams, I find the ridgity of the chassis good. I have no complaints, even when making sharp turns as fast as I can. My Abrams still feel like a solid piece.

16 minutes ago, Chaky said:

the biggest reason for flimsiness are too long and too week roll bars

I disagree here. Those steel tubing are ridgid enough IMO. That is not the weakest link.

People resolve the filmsy side-to-side movement issue by replacing the bottom cross members.

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On 4/28/2023 at 1:40 AM, Chaky said:

They are thin walled and interconecting plate are also thin and easily get deformed. When you lift the whole thing, you would expect more weight in it

Have you ever lifted up a chromoly bike frame? It weighs almost nothing. Are you saying they are not strong? 

Steel tubings can be very strong and ridgid, depending on the alloying elements and heat treatment. 

Going back to the Abrams, structurally, it isn't the weakest link. But since it just a steel tube, you can easily get a local shop to fabricate something stronger for you.

Edited by techyiam
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Few update and oppinions on the cut-out issue... 

I have the one which easily gets cut out and hall sensor error when doing the hard break or pendulum test. 

I've oppend the motor and noticed few interesting observations. 

In my case, Mid sensor is mounted very close to rotor magnets when motor is assembled. I believe this is due to wide gap of the mounting groove. Due to machining miss tolerances(reason can be many... Bearing cover, centering holes, rim geometry, stator outer diameter, etc...) stator is scraping against the rotor magnets, and in one point it also scraped the sensor itself. I've also noticed strange magnet damages on the rotor (will put some pictures later). 

My theory is that this contract between the two assembles is causing the sensor to be moved, and in some situations give false reading which leads to cut out. I guess that it takes time for material to wear enough to get to this situation, and this could be the reason why people have the cuts after 1000+ km when hitting the small road bumps. 

I've also noticed that mid sensor was easily pulled out when disassembling and was not firmly connected to the stator anymore. 

Faulty sensors are not due to sensors per se, but I believe the reason is rotor to stator centering miss match or/and geometry of the stator not beeing perfect. 

I am working on the wheel now, and waiting the new sensors to arrive. 

My plan is to slighlty sand paper areas on stator where the wearing out is and with the new sensors the wheel should be safe to ride. 

Btw, I already cut the yellow sensor wires before taking the picture ;)

And another point-mine is 2110 version of motor and still has sensors with pcb. 

In the end, I think that miss matched bearing covers/machining is the root cause for this issue, and for fast bearing fail aswell because the axle is not perfectly normal to the rim. I will try to confirm this with more data and measuring. 

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6 hours ago, Chaky said:

stator is scraping against the rotor magnets

There is a little leeway with the motor cover seatings, so if the stator/rotator isn’t centered properly before tightening the motor cover bolts, the rotator can be offset enough for it to scratch the stator.

 I’m not sure if centering is enough in your case, but it would be the first path I’d examine. Print paper strips bent over a few times have been good alignment tools for how I do it.

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Guys I would need your help on sensor issue... I've put 41F sensors insted the old ones (they are the same type) , but still get  e hall error. When measuring voltages all 3 sensors are working fine (3.3V on, 0,016V off). 

When i turn the wheel slightly (magnets change position) I receiver this error, but when I turn the wheel little faster, I still get the readings for speed which is little odd and is actually the sign that sensors are functional. 

At the moment I am so desperate that I even think if additional caps that I added could have something to do with it... 

Edited by Chaky
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17 minutes ago, Chaky said:

When i turn the wheel slightly (magnets change position) I receiver this error, but when I turn the wheel little faster, I still get the readings for speed which is little odd and is actually the sign that sensors are functional. 

With the latest firmware, it can run senseless above 8 or 10 km/h. 

Have you check for continuity of the hall sensor wires and connectors from sensors to controller board, including the junction box.

20 minutes ago, Chaky said:

At the moment I am so desperate that I even think if additional caps that I added could have something to do with it..

Highly doubtful since hall sensors have only to do with rotor position. 

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I've tested all 3 sensors  in circuit, and got mentioned readings...which means all cables/connections are OK. 

When I disconnect one sensor for example, speedometer don't respond... Connect it back and it works again.

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53 minutes ago, Chaky said:

I've tested all 3 sensors  in circuit, and got mentioned readings...which means all cables/connections are OK. 

Where are you probing to be confident that the wiring and connectors are fine?

54 minutes ago, Chaky said:

When I disconnect one sensor for example, speedometer don't respond... Connect it back and it works again.

Interesting test result. What speeds have you observed? 

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3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Where are you probing to be confident that the wiring and connectors are fine?

I've made additional cabling on connectors I so I could acces signals with the probes. 

 

Speeds were just with hand turning the wheel... 4-5kmh

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9 hours ago, Chaky said:

Guys I would need your help on sensor issue... I've put 41F sensors insted the old ones (they are the same type) , but still get  e hall error. When measuring voltages all 3 sensors are working fine (3.3V on, 0,016V off). 

Note that middle hall sensor is flipped over on the 2110xxxx motor.

The pinouts are: 

Pin 1  -  power

Pin 2  -  Gnd

Pin 3  -  output.

Look closely at the red wire.

Whereas, in the 2111xxxx motor, all three sensors have the same mounted orientation. All pin 3 (output) are on the same side of the sensor. Note that sufficient magnetic strength is required to reliably turn on and off the hall sensor.

97C64D83-FEBE-4686-9621-49F8B65148E3.jpe

Note also Denis Hagov replaced the stock hall seniors with Allegro A1220 hall sensors and got it to work.

Allegro A1220 Hall Sensors

 

Time-stamped. 

 

Edited by techyiam
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Thanks for the inputs! 

I went already in details through video and also checked. Pdf for allegro sensor which is actually chopper stabilized and quite different from SS41F and needs additional 0.1uF to clean up filtering. I tried TLE4935L but it also didn't work. 

Reason why mid sensors is wired differently was puzzling me also for some time, but the only reason that seems valid is too wide gap on stator plates. Sensor is trapezoid shape, so when you mount it  flipped for 180deg it would not potrude through the gap that much and not scrape on the rotor magnets. Sensor will not work if output and Vcc pin connection is swapped. 

At the end I managet to get the 41F, but they also didn't work. So my guess is that sensors are actually not the root cause. 

I went in detailed inspection agan, and noticed scraping on stator wires. Below pcb there is also same type od scraping damage. This damage is present all around the stator circumference so it would not make sense that i managed to make such damage durring handling/assemblying. Especially this dmg below the pcb is obvious evidence that this came from factory, because I never moved the pcb from it's place. 

So, the new theory is that when the current is very high, you would get some kind of current arching on the scraped wires and this would cause the error. Because I've changed the sensors, it could be that I made the clearence between the pcb sensor and the damaged wires even smaller so that smaller current going through the coils would cause arching and sensor error. I'll try to insulate the scraped wires and check if it will work :/

 

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Spam update:

Despair continues... 

Additional insulation on wires didn't work. Error is still the same. As soon as I move the wheel, I receive E HALL error. In all my desparacy I tried to swap Vcc and output pins on mid sensor and ofc it didn't work - speedometer is dead. 

I only have two more options in my mind - first one is stator is scraping the magnets and this is messing up the control. Second  one control board is dead.

Edited by Chaky
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2 hours ago, Chaky said:

Additional insulation on wires didn't work. Error is still the same. As soon as I move the wheel, I receive E HALL error. In all my desparacy I tried to swap Vcc and output pins on mid sensor and ofc it didn't work - speedometer is dead. 

How about connect with correct pinout, but flip over the middle sensor so that it is the same as the other two sensors?

2 hours ago, Chaky said:

Additional insulation on wires didn't work. Error is still the same. As soon as I move the wheel, I receive E HALL error. In all my desparacy I tried to swap Vcc and output pins on mid sensor and ofc it didn't work - speedometer is dead. 

With the latest firmware, the wheel can run hall sensor-less if the speed is above 8 or 10 km/h. 

Can you spin the wheel by hand that fast? If you can, the wheel should self-balance. 

 

Also, can you confirm that the hall sensors are of the latch type. That is, the output should be low when one magnetic pole is aligned, and the output only should go high when the other magnetic pole is aligned?

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Like I already said, sensors are checked and working properly. They are latching/bipolar type. 

First sensors that I have installed were of unipolar type, and maybe it could be that this messed up logic and now every time I get this error even with bipolar in place. Maybe there is some kind of "master reset" for the software? 

I really don't understand how spinning the wheel faster would get it to start self ballancing? :/

 

Question for mods... Can this content (posts related to troubleshooting) be transfered to repairs section? 

Edited by Chaky
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11 hours ago, Chaky said:

Like I already said, sensors are checked and working properly. They are latching/bipolar type.

Sounds like you already have gone past this stage. 

11 hours ago, Chaky said:

I really don't understand how spinning the wheel faster would get it to start self ballancing?

Did you know that the Abrams can still operate and self balance if it is running above 10 km/h, even after you have deliberately snip two of the hall sensors out while operating? Above 10 km/h, the Abrams doesn't need the hall sensors to operate.

Edited by techyiam
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I didn't know in details how it works, but I was aware that fw update should provode "sensorless" function. 

I am sure it would not self ballance because as soon as you get E HALL error after first magnets change the position, it shuts the wheel down. Even if it would selfbalance, I don't know how it would help me to solve the error issue... 

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26 minutes ago, Chaky said:

am sure it would not self ballance because as soon as you get E HALL error after first magnets change the position, it shuts the wheel down. Even if it would selfbalance, I don't know how it would help me to solve the error issue...

I see. It only has senseless backup.

The reason I asked was to try to see whether the hall sensors were the only problem. You were thinking about controller replacement. But you don't really know for sure that the controller need replacing. I guess given that there isn't a service manual available, after a certain point, I guess there aren't too many options left, except to throw parts at the problem.

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On 5/8/2023 at 10:33 AM, Chaky said:

Like I already said, sensors are checked and working properly. They are latching/bipolar type. 

Have you done this test?

Time-stamped. 

 

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Thanks for the tip... Didn't tried it, but I guess speedometer would'n work at all if it was messed up. 

I will try to check it next time I try to tinker with the motor...I lost the will in last few attempts. 

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  Hey guys total newb here... I am trying to fill the tire for the first time however it will not fill. I tried directly with my electric pump and nothing and then bought an adapter and still nothing... I know it is not my pump as i pumped my electric scooter and car tires with it today. Could it be the valve on the Abrams tire? it looks fine to me however when I press down on the valve no air escapes at all? Does this mean it is blocked? Does the nut on the valve have anything to do with this issue? 

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2 hours ago, Newb93 said:

Could it be the valve on the Abrams tire? it 

There are no known issues, nor oddities with the tire valve on the Abrams. It is just a standard tire valve stem for tubeless applications. 

2 hours ago, Newb93 said:

however when I press down on the valve no air escapes at all? Does this mean it is blocked?

If the tire has air in it, just underinflated, and no air escapes when the valve is pressed, then your suspicion sounds reasonable. 

The Abrams is tubeless, and if the tire bead comes off the rim, then it can become a chore to seat it back without the proper equipment and the knowhow. 

Perhaps it is best to rest the Abrams on it side when releasing air. I just lay it on top of a pizza box.

The next step is probably to slowly and carefully remove the tire valve stem core. Be mindful of the tire sealant/adhesive oozing or spraying out. If there is still no air coming out, then there may be blockage. But you have to investigate.

You need to examine the valve too.

2 hours ago, Newb93 said:

Does the nut on the valve have anything to do with this issue? 

No.

I have taken out the entire valve stem assembly out and back.

Edited by techyiam
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Here's an update from my side. 

I flipped over mid senzor for 180deg and the wheel work(ed) for a few seconds. 

I made huge mistake by rushing to assemble with few screws just so I could turn on the wheel and check if it's working. I've held it vertically instead of layed down horizontal.

Motor started jerking and than turning violently. 

Plastics which connects the axle and the housing snapped off, cable got damaged on sharp edge of the axle, probably short circuit the one phase to a motor, and the controler won't turn anymore. 

Pretty much everything is toasted and I feel destroyed... But the sensors are working! 

:') 

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Thanks for the tips brother. Upon further investigation and a free spin test that had this Abrams shaking like a stripper on a saturday night, confirmed my suspicions. There is definitely some hardened slime in there blocking the valve and throwing off the wheel balance. Looks like I am going to just have to change the tire. OH YEAH and EEVEES was such a great help... "sarcasm" wish me luck! 

 

 

Edited by Newb93
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22 hours ago, Newb93 said:

Thanks for the tips brother. Upon further investigation and a free spin test that had this Abrams shaking like a stripper on a saturday night, confirmed my suspicions. There is definitely some hardened slime in there blocking the valve and throwing off the wheel balance. Looks like I am going to just have to change the tire. OH YEAH and EEVEES was such a great help... "sarcasm" wish me luck! 

 

 

I had the same issue, pulled the tire off and it was full of green tire sealant, cleaned all that crap out and installed a tube, done.  Been using tubes since the stone ages, always treated me well, I'll patch/change a tube all day not to have to deal with tire sealant...  The Abrams is an easy wheel to work on so you'll not have a problem whichever direction you go.

Edited by RetroThruster
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