jimjam.nyc Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Zopper said: I don't think that EUCs should venture into motorcycle world for safety reasons (braking, approach to safety and limits by manufacturers is not even remotely good enough for 100+ km/h devices, ...), but ignoring that factor, we need to solve some issues before even getting there. For example: The machines are getting too big and heavy to carry home after each ride, so we need EUCs that can be parked outside 24/365, no matter the weather. And with proper security, be it a physical key, or just a nfc fob required to turn it on, because it has to survive unattended just like MC does. Or how are we going to get regulators to put stickers on it and give us licence plates, while not banning all EUC from sidewalks? In short, MC-grade EUC is not just about MOAR SPEEED, MOAR POWER! There is a ton of implicit requirements and heaps of problems that we should resolve BEFORE we have the speed and power. I am def not advocating for EUCs to start hitting motorcycle territory. Everything you mention are perfect reasons why. I just feel there will be more than one category of wheel, and the thought of having a lightweight backpackable wheel that can also do 40+mph is a bit of a pipe dream. I think its amazing we have PEVs that can pretty much go anywhere right now except for highway (even though you will see some people taking shermans on the FDR in NYC). I just think it is reasonable to assume if you want something lightweight, super transportable, and last miley, you have that covered already. I just don't know how much more innovation is needed in that category. Do you go and add traction control and touchscreens and kickstands to something you use to trolly around town for a small amount of distance? At some point, price becomes an issue there. So advancements to me seem to mean pushing the heavier, faster, more feature filled wheels. I am not saying the lighter end wheels is a dead category. You can still add nice QOL features and make better wheels, but the price point is the main thing there. It has to be reasonable. But once you start tacking on more of these features these wheels by design will lose their ability to stay light and transportable. as for MOAR SPEED. Unfortunately, with this form factor, adding safety, hill climbing ability, and even traction control means MOAR Battery and more powa. Which inevitably also leads to a faster wheel. Unless companies like Inmotion start knee capping speeds just to do it, you can't really advance without speed becoming higher as well. I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLEASE_DELETE Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Back on the v12 front - has anyone seen definitive pricing/release date? Did I miss it in this thread? I've only seen speculation.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said: Back on the v12 front - has anyone seen definitive pricing/release date? Did I miss it in this thread? I've only seen speculation.... Not that I am aware of as of yet. Wouldn't trust something that comes out today being that its april 1st ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply_Striking Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 42 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said: I just think it is reasonable to assume if you want something lightweight, super transportable, and last miley, you have that covered already. I just don't know how much more innovation is needed in that category. Do you go and add traction control and touchscreens and kickstands to something you use to trolly around town for a small amount of distance? At some point, price becomes an issue there. This right here. I think too many of us are looking for a single wheel to do everything. Light weight, secure, fast, stable at speed, nimble, long range, security, weather proof, submersible, blah blah blah. I am not saying it is a bad idea not to want everything, or manufactures trying meet those expectations, (or not in some instances), but sometimes our expectations do need to have a reality check. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post VikB Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 57 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said: I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach. If I buy a new wheel it would be for more range not high speed. So if InMotion sells a great wheel with big batteries that is speed limited at a reasonable speed I'd be happy to buy it. Now I think you are correct some people wouldn't want that sort of speed limit and that's fine each brand/model doesn't have to appeal to the whole market as long as there are enough sales to justify its development. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiWestSider Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 I just wanna be 1 of the first people able to preorder this thing. I need an upgrade from my V10F and I've held off on the Sherman for this. Let me be first to buy this, please!?!?!? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) Quote Unless companies like Inmotion start knee capping speeds just to do it, you can't really advance without speed becoming higher as well. I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach. I don’t know how you’ve missed it, but GW (and it’s child Veteran?) has always been the only manufacturer that doesn’t cap the top speed of their EUCs. Everybody else has understood since day one what happens if you reach the max speed of a self-balancing vehicle. Edited April 1, 2021 by mrelwood 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, mrelwood said: I don’t know how you’ve missed it, but GW (and it’s child Veteran?) has always been the only manufacturer that doesn’t cap the top speed of their EUCs. Everybody else has understood since day one what happens if you reach the max speed of a self-balancing vehicle. I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins) Then obviously there would be little to no point in going into the performance area and advertising a faster top speed wheel etc.. It is becoming clear that its making sense to start exploring that next category for companies like IM or KS. I am pretty sure KS will follow with something in a performance range soon. I think most people on this forum know which wheels to buy if they want to be able to shut off tiltback and things like that. I dont think that will ever change to be honest. I just dont see IM or KS giving you the options to do that. but v12 and whatever KS has up its sleeve will def add competition to that performance market. To me its a win for consumers weather you like their brand of wheel or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 22 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said: To be honest I am not sure how much you could improve on the lighter lower range wheels without busting into the next category. I guess you can add the better lights, screens and kickstands, etc. But at some point they will be too expensive for what they are needed for. If you’ve seen the innards of an iPS i5, you’ll see that one of the keys is to shave the weight of the metal motor covers, as the i5 forgoes those and houses the exposed stator and rotor assembly in the case directly (albeit not super successfully protecting from outside debris). Maybe the stator circular plate can switch to lighter materials and have some cutouts as well, to decrease material(?) Outside of that, yeah not a lot of places to shave more weight, as everyone uses lightweight plastic for the shell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zopper Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 57 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said: I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins) How do you think that limitation would be done? It would be the same as today - ending up with a big tiltback and wild beeps once you reach the software limit. Practically equivalent to buying e.g. Sherm the limiting to ~30 mph. Which I would do, if I had Sherm. 44 minutes ago, houseofjob said: If you’ve seen the innards of an iPS i5, you’ll see that one of the keys is to shave the weight of the metal motor covers, as the i5 forgoes those and houses the exposed stator and rotor assembly in the case directly (albeit not super successfully protecting from outside debris). Maybe the stator circular plate can switch to lighter materials and have some cutouts as well, to decrease material(?) Outside of that, yeah not a lot of places to shave more weight, as everyone uses lightweight plastic for the shell. I guess that the weight of the motor comes from the motor itself, not from the covers. They are just thin aluminium AFAIK. And sometimes it is plastic too. I mean, yes, the covers weight something, but weight is the second name of electric motors in general. So the first step would be to use a lighter and more powerful motor tech - and I think that while it exists in principle, no one is making it in the configuration EUCs need. And only when shaving off few more grams, do something about these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Zopper said: I guess that the weight of the motor comes from the motor itself, not from the covers. They are just thin aluminium AFAIK. And sometimes it is plastic too. Yes, it's not as much as stripping whole motor magnets, but it still has significant weight, because the motor needs to be isolated from the elements. And I've never seen plastic EUC motor covers, ever, do you have a source to show this? 45 minutes ago, Zopper said: So the first step would be to use a lighter and more powerful motor tech - and I think that while it exists in principle, no one is making it in the configuration EUCs need. And only when shaving off few more grams, do something about these. What is the principle? AFAIK, "more powerful" and "lighter" are complete opposites in motor design: more powerful motors need more windings, bigger magnets, ie. you cannot make a more powerful motor without increasing weight. Edited April 1, 2021 by houseofjob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, houseofjob said: AFAIK, "more powerful" and "lighter" are complete opposites in motor design: more powerful motors need more windings, bigger magnets, ie. you cannot make a more powerful motor without increasing weight. Neither the magnets nor the windings seem to be the things that make up most of the weight of the motor. They look small and light in comparison. Of course I didn't weigh them, but to me it looks like the steel stator is the annoyingly heavy thing that could be improved. Not sure. Edited April 1, 2021 by meepmeepmayer There's always some dumb spelling error💩 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said: I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins) Ah, so you really don’t know. The Inmotion V11 for example has a no-load speed of around 80km/h (50mph) with a full battery. They advertised and launched it as a 50km/h (31mph) wheel, because it has a programmed safety measure called a tilt-back that limits the rider from riding faster than 50km/h (31mph). This feature can’t be turned off. As the battery depletes and the no-load speed decreases due to the decreasing battery voltage, the maximum speed the rider is allowed to ride is being decreased (by software) as well. Quote Then obviously there would be little to no point in going into the performance area and advertising a faster top speed wheel etc.. Of course. The advertised maximum speed is a speed that riders of all (allowed) weights are able to ride with a reasonable safety margin. The V12 is specified of having a max speed of 70km/h. And it will be software limited with a tilt-back the user cannot remove. A full battery no-load speed would then have to be closer to 100km/h for it to follow the traditional IM safety margin. I’m sorry if I sound condescending, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to be clear since some of this seem to be new info for you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Neither the magnets nor the windings seem to be the things that make up most of the weight of the motor. They look small and light in comparison. Of course I didn't weigh them, but to me it looks like the steel stator is the annoyingly heavy thing that could be improved. Not sure. But this doesn’t make sense. The motor assemblies coming up from 1500 to 2000 to now 3000+ W motors, there is nothing different in the design except thicker magnets and more windings in the same motor volume space, but the weight increase is universal, as you go to higher wattage motors. The steel stator is the same from the older motors to the new, no? At least visually, nothing seems different when comparing older motors to today’s higher power motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 22 minutes ago, mrelwood said: Ah, so you really don’t know. The Inmotion V11 for example has a no-load speed of around 80km/h (50mph) with a full battery. They advertised and launched it as a 50km/h (31mph) wheel, because it has a programmed safety measure called a tilt-back that limits the rider from riding faster than 50km/h (31mph). This feature can’t be turned off. As the battery depletes and the no-load speed decreases due to the decreasing battery voltage, the maximum speed the rider is allowed to ride is being decreased (by software) as well. Of course. The advertised maximum speed is a speed that riders of all (allowed) weights are able to ride with a reasonable safety margin. The V12 is specified of having a max speed of 70km/h. And it will be software limited with a tilt-back the user cannot remove. A full battery no-load speed would then have to be closer to 100km/h for it to follow the traditional IM safety margin. I’m sorry if I sound condescending, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to be clear since some of this seem to be new info for you. No need to apologize since you already know you sound condescending. ;-) I am also not offended by anyone trying to correct me. So no worries here at all. I won't try and defend the fact that i actually do understand how an EUC functions and works. I am not trying to prove any points here. I was just having a discussion on why it would make little sense for any company to put out a 70lb 100v wheel, just to force limit it 30mph. When there are cheaper, reliable options at that level. It was more around if there is an actual need to keep refining older non performance wheels.. Not really around how tiltback works.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said: No need to apologize since you already know you sound condescending. ;-) I am also not offended by anyone trying to correct me. So no worries here at all. I won't try and defend the fact that i actually do understand how an EUC functions and works. I am not trying to prove any points here. I was just having a discussion on why it would make little sense for any company to put out a 70lb 100v wheel, just to force limit it 30mph. When there are cheaper, reliable options at that level. It was more around if there is an actual need to keep refining older non performance wheels.. Not really around how tiltback works.. Ok, I'm terribly sorry, I completely misunderstood your posts! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post yoos Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 The tech to create a lighter yet fast EUC is apparently available but too expensive. I think it's feasible to produce a ~20-25kg EUC with 3kwh+ battery and 4kW+ motor, 80kmh "safe" top speed priced around 5000$. I guesstimate these specs by looking at super high end e-scooters made by RION. The Rion 2 RE weighs 27kg, with 3kwh battery (100V, 21700 cells), 20kw (yes, that is 20.000 watt although different sites list different specs), and a top speed of 130kph (software limited). Remarkably, the controller is rated 500amps. This is much higher than the typical EUC controllers can survive. The scooter employs active cooling iirc. Typically, eucs with comparable specs are lighter (and cheaper) than scooters, which is why an euc should boast even better specs/weight value. Anyway, the escooter market is vast which is why super-high-end scooters may find enough customers. The EUC market seems too small. Still I hope the V12 will bring something new to the table, even if it's only sophisticated lights and menacing whirring (will it attract or scare dogs? ). For my use case the 16X is the best euc on paper, but poor lights and questionable weatherproofness stop me from buying. So personally, I don't need wheels to go further and faster, instead I wish them to keep the current specs but become lighter, more reliable and convenient. Perhaps the V12 will help rise the quality/convenience standards. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post evX_Mick Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 On 3/29/2021 at 4:36 AM, DjPanJan said: My opinion about Mr. EVX videos is nice to watch but not type content i prefer for select what EUC buy becasue i am numbers person. I want see overheat hills(or similar test where we see how EUC react in stress condition if/how self protection measurment work) aceleration test (no need explanation) climb test if euc can do 25-40 degree or more incline. Range test Dissasemble video What i remember new thing/test Mr. evX give to comunity is cup test strange/fun test suspension efectivness. And his "incline" climb in some hill in New York (what is one of "scientific" test he do on Evx chanel) and famous shower test 👍🏻 As i say i am numbers person: Simpy example gotway nikola cant go incline 30 = weak for my weight gotway/begode MSP/RS T can go 40 incline Veteran sherman have problem(dip pedal) on 40 incline is so simply direct compare EUC if this results is known. (and i thing New York city must have somewhere 25 to 40 degree ramps or places) Becasue for me rewievs and tests is compare product A vs product B This is content what i like and prefer. I have nothing against promo/fancy videos and i not person who say chanel X is beter like chanell Y i like all EUC content from small under 100 subs chanel to biggest one. EUC is expensive and tests is something what help me money for best price/efectivity. Mr. Evx is creator who focus promo/visualstuning videos is logical inmotion select him becasue MDA etc. I like and watch podcasts he make and watch every video on chanel and i HOPE some scientific test come in next series of V12 videos i stay tuned! V12 is power euc what is presented(on paper) and i realy want see compare V12 raw power vs MSP RST(any euc on market) in aceleration/inclines becasue if lost is just KS16X with littlebit more battery. If V12 offer good weatherproof is worth ubgrade from my KS16X(go go shower test🚿 ) . the unfortunate truth is not ONE creator on youtube in the euc space is ever performing anything remotely scientific. If you think they are then you may want reread the definition of scientific. This is all entertainment based on our personal opinions. if you do not like anyone's content, do not watch it. But do not get it twisted and think anything you see if scientific. its YOUTUBE afterall. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evX_Mick Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 On 3/29/2021 at 3:02 PM, mike_bike_kite said: That's me out then and we're not even at episode 2 of Mick's advertising series I'd of thought if you're bring in a competitor to the Nikola+ then it would be wise to at least match the price. The wheel looks fairly decent in the photo above but why would I want to pay that much for a wheel that goes way faster then I'd ever want to go? And why would those obsessed with speed want to buy a wheel that goes slower than the Sherman? if you recall, the nikola+ hit the market in the USA at $2,550.00 so i wopuld be shocked if it cost a penny more... considering the goal of this wheel is the kill the nikola+. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post evX_Mick Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 On 3/29/2021 at 7:03 PM, Unventor said: Ohh and I do think that should @houseofjobget a chance to review a V12 that could be entertaining. What he would say about it, I have no idea. But despite him and I like products for different reasons, I always found the reviews he did to bring something new and interesting. I shall not mention names but a few other youtubers are in the game to earn money. It shows in their stuff. But they are just like a commercial. I can view this anywhere, but they do not make me decided if I want a product. And commercial have very little interest to me. Chris Yim doesnt give a rats ass about the v12. I know because we have spoke about it lol. And yes, Youtube is a business. All people taking youtube seriously make money. The great aspect of euc content so far is that no one is paid to say anything other than our true feelings. Pay/youtube go hand in hand. I know this to be true about all the people I personally watch on youtube and it doesnt both me. It also doesnt bother me that actors and directors are paid to make tv shows. For better or worse the world revolves around money. All videos are commercials. Remeber that. If theres a lens in invovled... you've entered the realm of spell casting. Lastly, i think in the era of the Sherman, this wheel won't appeal to a significant portion of people. In general, it will appeal to a specific group such as new riders, nikola owners, 16x owners and someone that has a specifci need for a mid-range wheel. Otherwise, most people know what they want and will likely go very big or very small. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 29 minutes ago, evX_Mick said: if you recall, the nikola+ hit the market in the USA at $2,550.00 so i wopuld be shocked if it cost a penny more... considering the goal of this wheel is the kill the nikola+. I understand your point but strictly speaking it's competing with the Nikola+ now, not then, and the Nikola+ is available for much less now. I actually quite like the V12 but worry that I'd be paying for speed I'll never ever use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post evX_Mick Posted April 1, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said: I understand your point but strictly speaking it's competing with the Nikola+ now, not then, and the Nikola+ is available for much less now. I actually quite like the V12 but worry that I'd be paying for speed I'll never ever use. no one trusts me, but trust me you're paying (whatever cost) for the safety and amenities. not the speed. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply_Striking Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 @evX_Mick......It is April........ please stop with the tip game..........please.... and thank you..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evX_Mick Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Simply_Striking said: @evX_Mick......It is April........ please stop with the tip game..........please.... and thank you..... you have an issue with the lunar situation in April? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasku Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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