Fire History

[FlyingWigs]

10 hours ago, conecones said:

That video brings back memories of high school chemistry class but it's not relevant for our EUC batteries, because they are lithium-ion, not lithium-metal. This is a common misconception about using water to put out lithium-ion batteries. If you google "water vs lithium battery" it defaults to showing reactions between water and lithium-metal batteries.

Battery University has a great article about lithium-ion safety and a bit of history: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-304a-safety-concerns-with-li-ion

Water is an acceptable way to fight lithium-ion battery fires. Usually because it's the only thing you have left after the 10s spray from a typical ABC extinguisher.

When I worked regularly with lithium polymer batteries for rc cars/planes, we always always always kept a bucket of salt water on hand. If the battery looked damaged, toss it in the bucket. If it started venting or smoking, in the bucket. The water helps cool it, while the salt helps to discharge the other cells to zero. Once the cells are dead, they're inert and can be disposed of safely. 

[Wolverine]

In Italy, Kingsong S18 burned to the ground. The cause of the fire is unknown.

Source:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/4936442613120329/

[Miko.cz]

10 minutes ago, Wolverine said:

In Italy, Kingsong S18 burned to the ground. The cause of the fire is unknown.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/4936442613120329/

same video as on previous page.

[goatman]

why not liquid nitrogen fire extinguishers?

they put out fires and would stop the thermal runaway

 i think i saw people using those little compressed air canisters for bike tires to put out a fire on a stealth bomber

[Paul A]

Are liquid nitrogen extinguishers available?

Or just have a cylinder of liquid nitrogen with a hose and spray nozzle attached?

 

[Elwood]

Just ran across this, not sure what he means; seems like a fuse blew and the batteries that had the connection killed were fine, and the bms killed the rest of the cells? Since it's all about the batteries, some one might find it useful.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/26868-msx-pro-bricked-m50-packs-and-fried-controller/

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
(added URL for others)

[Asphalt]

13 hours ago, Wolverine said:

In Italy, Kingsong S18 burned to the ground. The cause of the fire is unknown.

Source:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/4936442613120329/

Thank-you for the link. One of the commenters stated the following:

Quote

Jimmy Jira

This is my friend's wheel, the wheel was fallen to the small canal. Then repair it to recover to run. Unfortunately, the pending water inside the wheel may drop down to the BMS while parking the wheel by face down. Few minutes, the smoke come out the wheel get fired immediately.

Since this S18 wheel had fallen into water, it falls under "preventable user abuse" more than "manufacturing/design issue", so I'm going remove it from the list.

[TantasStarke]

3 hours ago, Asphalt said:

Since this S18 wheel had fallen into water, it falls under "preventable user abuse" more than "manufacturing/design issue", so I'm going remove it from the list.

If you're removing wheels that fall under preventable user abuse, wheels like the May 9 2019 Kingsong 16S should be removed, as Jason McNeil himself stated that wheel had been crashed numerous times and had to previously have 90% of the wheel replaced

I'd argue the May 31 2020 Gotway Monster V3 3108 Wh as well since it was a custom 3rd party battery upgrade with suspect 21700 cells. It isn't fair to blame Gotway/Begode for that.

I'd also argue the Dec 28 2021 Gotway MCM5 as it was stated to be "heavily modified" in a comment on the instagram post

If the point of this thread is to identify manufacturer caused fires and not all fires, these should be removed as well. I'm still curious if this is a "battery fire" thread now where only wheels where the batteries ignite get added, or what.

Edit: The Feb 5 2022 Gotway Nikola 100V 1800Wh was also covered in snow and was attempted to be dried before igniting, I would definitely argue that's similar to the S18 and qualifies as "preventable user abuse".

Edited March 17, 2022 by TantasStarke

[alcatraz]

I vote for leaving all fires in but with a proper description.

Riding in snow or rain shouldn't be seen as innocent just because we often do it, and deem it "ok". Put it in the description.

Halfway submerging a wheel for 2 seconds could happen if you ride through a flooded street. It shouldn't be a reason to remove a wheel from the list. Put it in the description. 

[TantasStarke]

6 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

I vote for leaving all fires in but with a proper description.

Riding in snow or rain shouldn't be seen as innocent just because we often do it, and deem it "ok". Put it in the description.

Halfway submerging a wheel for 2 seconds could happen if you ride through a flooded street. It shouldn't be a reason to remove a wheel from the list. Put it in the description. 

I wholeheartedly agree. There are links to all of the fires already where you can learn if it's a manufacturing issue or user issue, every fire should be added to be as objective as possible.

An euc fire needs to be defined as well. Is it only if the battery ignites? There have been fires where a control board ignited which then caused a battery fire, do we not add that because "reports of burnt/smoking control boards have been removed from this list", and the fire was caused by a burnt/smoking control board. Is it only if there's actual flames that aren't instantly put out (so excluding a mosfet burning up, etc.), and doesn't require a battery to ignite?

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Asphalt said:

so I'm going remove it from the list.

 

22 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Put it in the description. 

+1! Some Abused or Modified comment for such cases!

Otherwise such videos/cases will pop up here again and again ...

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, Asphalt said:

  Quote

Jimmy Jira

This is my friend's wheel, the wheel was fallen to the small canal. Then repair it to recover to run. Unfortunately, the pending water inside the wheel may drop down to the BMS while parking the wheel by face down. Few minutes, the smoke come out the wheel get fired immediately.

Thanks @Asphalt for finding out.

Big mistake from the owner or person who "repaired" this S18, to not disassemble completely a wheel which fell into water and check for water contamination.

BTW this reminds me of mistaken confidence Kingsong still has with the S20 where packs are completely unprotected aside from being enclosed in the aluminum casing, which are not sealed from the controller box which itself is not sealed.
Then when water can make it in, it can't make it out from the bottom.

Unless addressed, it means some S20 will catch fire. I hate to predict that, but I'll likely be proven right.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CaSjLClp7fD/

[mike_bike_kite]

I keep reading this thread because I'm trying to get a handle on the spontaneous fires that occur. I don't care at all about fires caused by user error. I don't care about motherboard fires caused by excessive strain. Reporting these just muddies the overall picture of what's happening. What I do care about is going to sleep at night and waking up to find my house on fire.

[GoGeorgeGo]

13 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I keep reading this thread because I'm trying to get a handle on the spontaneous fires that occur. I don't care at all about fires caused by user error. I don't care about motherboard fires caused by excessive strain. Reporting these just muddies the overall picture of what's happening. What I do care about is going to sleep at night and waking up to find my house on fire.

The issue there is that there is almost no way to be sure manufacturer ussues have caused almost all these fires. The only ones you can say with a high level of confidence that where factory error are wheels that caught fire before being ridden. 

Everyone claims to have never crashed, but we have all dropped the wheel on its side before. Everyone will say they took good care of the battery, and yet everyone has different opinions of what good battery care means. Everyone says they ride gently but yet we all hop up and down curbs, ride when its wet outside, brake like its an emergency, accelerate like we are in a race. 

Point is people misremeber a lot of things. Whether out of true innocent ignorance, or from the standpoint of trying to protect warrantys or potential lawsuits. 

As far as i can tell, almost none of these wheels have been inspected by a proffessional before nor after a fire has taken place. 

Without hard proof either direction, we are simply relying on literal guess work as to why a fire started. Guess work which is tainted by the bias against certain models. Just my opinion, but every fire should be included and the individual needs to come to their own decision on what the likely cause was. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I keep reading this thread because I'm trying to get a handle on the spontaneous fires that occur. I don't care at all about fires caused by user error. I don't care about motherboard fires caused by excessive strain. Reporting these just muddies the overall picture of what's happening. What I do care about is going to sleep at night and waking up to find my house on fire.

i doubt you would sleep true battery "popcorn" going off.. At las you are sleeping in different room.  

[RagingGrandpa]

5 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

What I do care about is going to sleep at night and waking up to find my house on fire.

Well, to address that, go here  

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/search/?&tags=fire safety

(I know you've seen it Mike, but others are reading, and I hate to miss an opportunity)

[GoGeorgeGo]

Another s18 fire, posted in the same telegram chat.

This one is less definitive as to whether it was a battery fire or not though. Does look like it could be a control board.

Again it was posted with no context other than the video itself

Edited March 17, 2022 by GoGeorgeGo

[Rawnei]

32 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Another s18 fire, posted in the same telegram chat.

This one is less definitive as to whether it was a battery fire or not though. Does look like it could be a control board.

Again it was posted with no context other than the video itself

It's from facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1862054430504477/posts/5082523378457550/

No details yet but people asking the author what happened.

[supercurio]

Thanks @Rawnei for identifying the source!

Definitely a battery fire @GoGeorgeGo, as seen in the higher quality source: the front left pack is all burned out.

[redsnapper]

7 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Without hard proof either direction, we are simply relying on literal guess work as to why a fire started. Guess work which is tainted by the bias against certain models. Just my opinion, but every fire should be included and the individual needs to come to their own decision on what the likely cause was. 

Agreed - seems to me the regular use of an euc should not exclude the reporting of a meltdown - we can learn from any fire (even those caused by rider stupidity etc) and I for one want to know about any and all fires. Other than riding on ice, nothing like 3am fire night terrors to make you feel fully alive...

Edited March 17, 2022 by redsnapper

[Asphalt]

These are all good comments and this list should evolve as our understanding of EUC fires evolve. 

Having a listing of all EUC fires is valuable.

Having a listing of EUC fires that occurred despite reasonable use, is also valuable.

We can do both.

I'm going to reinstate reports that were previously removed, and tag cases that are known to be caused by user-abuse. 

[Wolverine]

17 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Another s18 fire, posted in the same telegram chat.

This one is less definitive as to whether it was a battery fire or not though. Does look like it could be a control board.

Again it was posted with no context other than the video itself

I contacted with the S18 owner and got a response. The answer I got is this: „the fire was caused when we tried to dry the wheel after the water submersion with a blow dryer.“

Honestly, this answer made me speechless.

[Asphalt]

1 hour ago, Wolverine said:

I contacted with the S18 owner and got a response. The answer I got is this: „the fire was caused when we tried to dry the wheel after the water submersion with a blow dryer.“

Honestly, this answer made me speechless.

Thank-you for tracking down this information!
Amazing that two S18s caught on fire due to water damage, on consecutive days.
Did Kingsong push a hydrophilic firmware update?

[Rawnei]

It's that part of year, winter is ending, summer is coming, you feel like taking a dip (with your wheel).

[supercurio]

It's interesting to see that for wheels which have a good waterproofing reputation, owners seem to be confident enough in their water resistance to go back to riding them after superficially checking their status instead of getting them dismantled and checked thoroughly by a professional.

I mean ideally all PEVs would be like this one tested by Bonheur sur Seine, and some people assume they already are if they don't catch fire immediately