V11 Cutout - User Error - Inmotion FTW

[.....]

23 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

I agree 100%  ill take the overhead vs extra speed now that I've seen God 

Also my hopes of keeping up with typical 45mph traffic for any length of time. I think it's 'safe' to say that advertised top speeds are not even remotely close to a safe sustained top speed. Even on my Big wheel that claims 55mph, I seriously doubt that 45mph is a safe speed to maintain. Too many factors and batteries sag so easily. Im wondering if its best to assume 70% or less of max speed, leaves a good safety margin. I know its so subjective on terrain, weight and riding style, but i definitely need to find that comfortable number for myself soon! Hell, 25mph on flat aint near the same as accelerating to 25mph thru an uphill mountain sweeper in the wind.  I'd suspect that a 30mph wheel is more likely a 25mph wheel at best, IF you want to have any room for accelerating and managing terrain that requires the power to keep you upright. Flat landers dont have the inclines to deal with, which also eats into that ellusive headroom. Hmm, sounds like a poll.   How much headroom does it take to make a pertson feel 'safe'? I better reevaluate the alarms on my 18l, as its also a pitifully slow wheel at just under 30mph. Its tiltback and alarms havent failed me yet, but Im also asking more from it, every mile I get better at riding. Hopefully lowering the alarms will only seem slower, until I reacclimate to the new 'top speed'.

Edited November 18, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[GoGeorgeGo]

17 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Also my hopes of keeping up with typical 45mph traffic for any length of time. I think it's 'safe' to say that advertised top speeds are not even remotely close to a safe sustained top speed. Even on my Big wheel that claims 55mph, I seriously doubt that 45mph is a safe speed to maintain. Too many factors and batteries sag so easily. Im wondering if its best to assume 70% or less of max speed, leaves a good safety margin. I know its so subjective on terrain, weight and riding style, but i definitely need to find that comfortable number for myself soon! I'd suspect that a 30mph wheel is more likely a 25mph wheel at best, IF you want to have any room for accelerating and managing terrain that requires the power to keep you upright. Hmm, sounds like a poll.   How much headroom does it take to make a pertson feel 'safe'?

Just like the range is a lie, the top speed is a lie to.  The top speed for an electric unicycle neeeeeds to be perceived differently than on any 2+ wheeled vehicles.  

But again, its not about speed, its all about power.  Think of a drill, if you slowly press the button it spins slower and consume less power, but will still get up to speed.  If you crank down on the drill button, it sucks maximum power from the battery and will loose power quickly. If a drill runs lower on power it just spins slower.  If the wheel starts to spin slower though, we fall down. 

And like shane said, even on his Sherman on 90% battery he was able to sag down under 50% of headroom without trying to.  And the shermans battery is more than double the v11. And he is only a 130 lb rider.  I know im a 200 lb guy but luckily i learned to ride from my buddys who are 230 and 280 respectively, so they had already learned lessons about overpowering wheels easily lol.

Heck even gotway makes its riders turn off safety failsafes to reach the speeds people want.  They clearly let you know the wheel CAN go 40 mph, but their tiltback is low isnt it? I think gotway tiltback set down at like 45 km/h by default? 

Its pretty clear over the last year that people want a motorcycle grade wheel.  Thats what the market is moving towards.  We just need to accept that these are not vehicles right now, they are still toys.  Until they have crazy overhead at highway speeds, people will never be satisfied.  And even then there will be the daredevils that want to ride their motorcycle at 200 mph and will push machines to the outer most limits

Edited November 18, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

16 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

To be fair, inmotion DID limit the wheel to 50 km/h for a reason.  It was only due to community outcry that they even allowed the 55 km/h.  They did all the testing, all the calibrating of firmware warnings, all the design was for 50 km/h.  Im sure not riding in fancy mode (which means tiltback at like 28 mph) is the intended way to ride.  Anyone using Fancier mode does so at their own risk imo

No, they limited the speed to 45-46kmh (real speed), tweaked the firmware that it shows 50kmh and offered later the fancy mode to reach the advertised speed of 50 kmh. The Fancy mode is not the performance option to ride faster than 50kmh, but the option that you are able to reach the advertised top speed for a few minutes. 

Sorry I have to say this again, but I just don't like that kind of nice talk and it has nothing to do with bashing.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by buell47

[Chaotropic]

1 hour ago, buell47 said:

The Fancy mode is not the performance option to ride faster than 50kmh, but the option that you are able to reach the advertised top speed for few a minutes. 

Sorry I have to say this again, but I just don't like that kind of nice talk and it has nothing to do with bashing.

At least for what I’ve noticed speed throttling doesn’t really occur until after 15 miles or so. Certainly longer than a few minutes. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Never ever you can ride 15 miles or so with speed above 50 kmh until your battery drops below the 80% mark.
I think you talking about riding very slowly 15 miles and then accelerate the wheel once very carfully to the fake 55kmh?
But thats not what I mean.

[Jonesq]

10 hours ago, Inmotion Global said:

hi Joshua, through our analysis report, it shows that the issues might be caused by acclerating or going up hills after the riksy moment which will all casue the tiltback. From the picture, it looks like a slight hill, isn't it?

This unfortunate event seems like a good opportunity for Inmotion to make the V11 even safer through the upcoming Inmotion watch. Therefore would is be possible to:
 

1. sync the watch with headphones to output the warning beeps to the headphones?
2. have the watch emit some sort of warning, either vibration or visual, when conditions are nearing a shutoff (like in this case)
3. display some sort of reading on the watch that would let the wearer know what % of the available voltage is being used?

[mike_bike_kite]

I doubt they'd be able to sync to headphones as most of these things will only link to one item via bluetooth and that's usually the wheel. It's probably also not a good thing for manufacturers to encourage riders to wear headphones while riding. Vibration alarms are standard if you're using a smart watch connected via EUCWorld etc so I'm sure they'll be added to the Inmotion product. They usually have a speed limit alarm and an amps alarm, not sure about a voltage alarm.

With your 18XL you can use the EUC World app on your phone and an Android smart watch to get these alarms. If the phone is in a shirt pocket then you could just have the vibration alarm on the phone and you wouldn't need a smart watch. I'm currently trying out something called EUCDash which works on a very cheap smart watch and doesn't need the phone.

 

[EUChristian]

I purchased a Samsung Gear 3 watch and will be using in tandem with my S20 and EUC world going forward. Another step in the safer direction. 

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Another step in the safer direction. 

Slowing down is really what you need to concentrate on. 

[h3X]

For now I have capped my V11 at 45 kph which is just about 80% of the advertised top speed.

[.....]

And now we get to see what happens when a company bows down to pressures and raises a speed limit to that which is above the limits of safety of the machine. As I recall, the v11 was originally not intended to go this fast. Only once they realized the competition was 'beating' them in top speed and when everyone began bitching, they raised to another 5km. Of COURSE they knew it wasnt really capable of this top speed in any safe manner. But, in order to appease the masses and seem more competitive, they raised the speed another 5km and now here we are. A wheel that claims to go faster than it safely does, and users having to impose limits above those of the manufacturer, in the pursuit of useability and safety. Its so damn clear why and how this happened and Inno is not alone in this. I'd bet if there was any form of liabliity involved as with other nations, they woldnt have been so quick to raise the limits. Perhaps they should re-evaluate their model.

[xiiijojjo]

22 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

A wheel that claims to go faster than it safely does

Another* wheel

By now it seems to be standard practice to exaggerate not only top speed but also range. I don't recall ever seeing real range or top speed figures from manufacturers.

Edited November 18, 2020 by xiiijojjo

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Slowing down is really what you need to concentrate on. 

No sir it is not. The remark you wrote is nonsensical, a bad opinion in general and adds nothing to this conversation.  For a second I thought my mom logged in. 

I didn't spend 2k on a machine advertised to safely go 50kmh to instead go 35 kmh by the safest company out there based on track record because I "need to concentrate on going slow". Had that been the case I would have stuck with a KS16 which I have somehow magically never been able to overlean. In fact I chose this exact wheel because I could go the advertised speed with no fear, unlike Gotway. I have been more than accommodating here admitting to my fault in the issue. But I am certainly not going to waste 2 grand to go 23mph. Sorry. 

Here is another nonsensical statement- in my opinion you should concentrate on going faster because your life is clearly sad and boring. Look that that, completely nonsensical and rooted completely in a condescending opinion!  And probably not true in the least. 

[EUChristian]

46 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

And now we get to see what happens when a company bows down to pressures and raises a speed limit to that which is above the limits of safety of the machine. As I recall, the v11 was originally not intended to go this fast. Only once they realized the competition was 'beating' them in top speed and when everyone began bitching, they raised to another 5km. Of COURSE they knew it wasnt really capable of this top speed in any safe manner. But, in order to appease the masses and seem more competitive, they raised the speed another 5km and now here we are. A wheel that claims to go faster than it safely does, and users having to impose limits above those of the manufacturer, in the pursuit of useability and safety. Its so damn clear why and how this happened and Inno is not alone in this. I'd bet if there was any form of liabliity involved as with other nations, they woldnt have been so quick to raise the limits. Perhaps they should re-evaluate their model.

True to point and I see now this now going to become a thread about what is safe and what's not. That's not the point here. The point is at 52.5 kph I had so little overhead that without a strong push to overcome tltback it just went. So that tells me as a rider that I have to lower the limit to 50kph, use more safety gear and never ride the beeps. Thats it. Opinions on whether I should be riding the speeds advertised or not have no bearing on this at all. 

And to your earlier post Wrong Way showed why - 4P has strong sag and thats the way it is. So be careful. But I see no reason why cruising at 50kph is a big deal as long as you aren't aggressive. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by EUChristian

[meepmeepmayer]

Torque is also limited by your speed vs. the max speed (zero torque speed) of the motor. Bigger batteries can only help against voltage sag, not this. I suspect at 55kph vs. 80kph no-load speed, this might have been the bigger part of the problem.

Looks like the general rule still applies: if you want to go x kph in earnest, buy a wheel that can easily go x+10 kph.

16 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

So that tells me as a rider that I have to lower the limit to 50kph, use more safety gear and never ride the beeps.

That's a good conclusion

Or you keep the higher speed limit but are very careful with accelerations at high speed.

Edited November 18, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[mike_bike_kite]

41 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

No sir it is not. The remark you wrote is nonsensical, a bad opinion in general and adds nothing to this conversation.  For a second I thought my mom logged in. 

I didn't spend 2k on a machine advertised to safely go 50kmh to instead go 35 kmh by the safest company out there based on track record because I "need to concentrate on going slow". Had that been the case I would have stuck with a KS16 which I have somehow magically never been able to overlean. In fact I chose this exact wheel because I could go the advertised speed with no fear, unlike Gotway. I have been more than accommodating here admitting to my fault in the issue. But I am certainly not going to waste 2 grand to go 23mph. Sorry. 

Here is another nonsensical statement- in my opinion you should concentrate on going faster because your life is clearly sad and boring. Look that that, completely nonsensical and rooted completely in a condescending opinion!  And probably not true in the least. 

Perhaps your mum has been right all these years? The safe top speed of wheels are calculated with a rider weighing 70kg traveling in perfect conditions. If you weigh more than that or if the battery isn't close to 100% full or if it's cold or if there's an incline or a bump in the road or if there's a wind blowing then your safe top speed has to come down. The original safe top speed of the V11 was 50kph but Inmotion allowed skilled riders to eat into their safety margin by upping the max speed to 55kph. You didn't seem to understand the risk because your usage stats show you riding at 55kph every day and still accelerating hard! It's great if you're the type of guy that can take that type of risk in your stride but, reading your first post, you seemed to want to point the blame for your crash on anyone but yourself.

I don't think I'm particularly sad and boring. I used to fly hang gliders, paragliders and paramotors. I have 4 motorcycles in the garage currently but have crashed about 20 others in the past, written off 4 of them. I used to take them on 30K mile trips. I've swum with sharks. I've had picnics on the rim of live volcanoes. I've been shot at 4 times, usually in unstable countries but once even in America. I've even been stoned with stones) in North Africa. Jobs have included everything from comedian to being offered a place in the Luxembourg cavalry. Finally ended up proposing to the wife when holed up in the Petan jungle with yellow fever. I could probably go on but, if you honestly think that riding 30mph on a unicycle is the peak of excitement, good for you

 

 

 

[EUChristian]

4 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps your mum has been right all these years? The safe top speed of wheels are calculated with a rider weighing 70kg traveling in perfect conditions. If you weigh more than that or if the battery isn't close to 100% full or if it's cold or if there's an incline or a bump in the road or if there's a wind blowing then your safe top speed has to come down. The original safe top speed of the V11 was 50kph but Inmotion allowed skilled riders to eat into their safety margin by upping the max speed to 55kph. You didn't seem to understand the risk because your usage stats show you riding at 55kph every day and still accelerating hard! It's great if you're the type of guy that can take that type of risk in your stride but, reading your first post, you seemed to want to point the blame for your crash on anyone but yourself.

I don't think I'm particularly sad and boring. I used to fly hang gliders, paragliders and paramotors. I have 4 motorcycles in the garage currently but have crashed about 20 others in the past, written off 4 of them. I used to take them on 30K mile trips. I've swum with sharks. I've had picnics on the rim of live volcanoes. I've been shot at 4 times, usually in unstable countries but once even in America. I've even been stoned with stones) in North Africa. Jobs have included everything from comedian to being offered a place in the Luxembourg cavalry. Finally ended up proposing to the wife when holed up in the Petan jungle with yellow fever. I could probably go on but, if you honestly think that riding 30mph on a unicycle is the peak of excitement, good 

I knew I was off sir, thats why I said it was a lie. You seem like quite the adventurer. And yes this is the pinnacle of my existence I do admit that and find no shame in it at all. 

When you say "blame everybody else" you mean blame the wheel right?  I don't recall blaming any humans at all. 

I do ride at 55kmh every day. You'll never believe this - its the recommended top speed!  Like i read online that this unit can go up to 55kph!  In fact I have hit tilt a bunch of times and it has done its job admirably!  This time it did not. And I have pushed it way harder. So I am still suspect of the algorithm. I personally think it has something to do with temperature but i am not going to conjecture. But seeing that Inmotion posted a graph that shows I over pushed it, I changed my tone, changed the OP, changed the title and took my hit. Did I mention i sustained a face plant at 30mph?  That does have a way of coloring initial opinions and such. 

Then you come along talking about "your that type of guy" crap. Virtue Signal much?  

 

[xiiijojjo]

@EUChristian You will come to learn you get a lot of negativity sent your way on this forum if your riding style does not conform to whomever reads your comments.

[Chaotropic]

His comment looks like it was copied and pasted from some other rant and stuck euc references to make it sound relevant. I am hoping the poster was just looking for some fun. I have faith that our community haS a bit more overall maturity. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I've been shot at 4 times, usually in unstable countries but once even in America. I've even been stoned with stones) in North Africa.

In the real world you may not seem to be very popular. Hmmm....so I would start to think about that.

I hope you are safer here, but I would still recommend you to be careful when using EUC World. Don't accidentally publish a tour log that shows your position or house. 

[mike_bike_kite]

18 minutes ago, buell47 said:

In the real world you may not seem to be very popular. 

I get by and to be fair, in most of the cases, I didn't get much time to get acquainted. 

[Tawpie]

Seems to me that any claim in the context of "advertised" should be taken with a grain of salt. When the safety of you or others is involved, an entire salt lick might be more appropriate. A quote from an unknown source "In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice…"

[EUChristian]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I get by and to be fair, in most of the cases, I didn't get much time to get acquainted. 

Hey man sorry if I was a bit grumpy back there. I understand what you are trying to say.

I grew up in a trailer park, never had yellow fever but lots of second hand toys and such. I've never owned such an awesome device and I do like being on the fast side. I'll take your advice and next time I wreck her I'll own it from the get go. 

[mrelwood]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:06 AM, GoGeorgeGo said:

It was only due to community outcry that they even allowed the 55 km/h.  They did all the testing, all the calibrating of firmware warnings, all the design was for 50 km/h.

 

16 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

And now we get to see what happens when a company bows down to pressures and raises a speed limit to that which is above the limits of safety of the machine. As I recall, the v11 was originally not intended to go this fast. Only once they realized the competition was 'beating' them in top speed and when everyone began bitching, they raised to another 5km.

Incorrect. Late 2019 when Inmotion fed us the juicy bits of the upcoming wheel later to beer known as V11 one by one, they told us that the top speed will be at least 53km/h, and probably 55km/h. The public announcement was therefore a bit of a letdown for some, as we were definitely expecting a 55km/h wheel. And from what I understood, they had even been testing a firmware that allows a top speed of 60km/h.

That’s what started the requests for a 55km/h top speed, since the wheel was clearly capable.

16X was the one that started at 45km/h, and was upped to 50km/h without having been designed for nor being capable of reaching it with a reasonable safety margin.

 

16 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

users having to impose limits above those of the manufacturer, in the pursuit of useability and safety.

TBH, not accelerating “fast“ at 2.5km/h before the special modified hidden mode top speed is one of the very basics of what should be expected from the rider when riding any self balancing vehicle. It’s what I’d call common sense.

 

15 hours ago, EUChristian said:

But I see no reason why cruising at 50kph is a big deal as long as you aren't aggressive. 

Exactly.

 

I had a related open tantrum at the thread “How NOT to ride”. TLDR: a guy very slowly and gently overleaned a monster at 60km/h while riding with zero protection. Nobody questioned the GW behavior, which was disturbing to me. Anyway, every single response I got was that if you remove the tilt-back on a GW (which is useless in its current form), all bets are off and you can blame yourself from anything and everything that happens. 

I think not accelerating fast so close to the max speed is reasonable to expect from the rider. But to be ejected from a vehicle when slowly reaching a variable top speed is not.

[Mike Sacristan]

Oh dear.. this turned out to be quite an interesting thread after all.
Glad it is all sorted out though and an accident here and there can help us become more careful riders (for a while).
IMO Gotway 100V are the least dangerous wheels.

When I ride my wheel and crash... and then analyse what happened.. I do my best to place the blame on myself. This is really my only hope.
The alternative would mean a faulty wheel.
The fact that a wheel has limitations is not a fault in and of itself... although it is a bit saddening.

When riding my 16X I was aware of the limitations and I set my alarm to 45kmh but I still had the tilt-back at max. This audio cue was enough for me. Once the wheel was beeping I would simply cool down. Wheels deliver less torque near the top speed. So what torque is left is needed for the speed and to keep us upright. There is no extra torque available for doing donkey leans at close to high speed. As we become better and stronger riders we reach the limits more easily and can eventually outgrow the wheel.

I really don't like tilt-back as it upsets my posture. Although in the case of the 16X I used 45kmh as a pre-alarm and then could creep to soft tilt-back. Without the 45kmh pre-alarm I tended to ride slower so as not to slam into the tilt-back.

With the Nikola I can get it to 50kmh and know that I have plenty to go. Usually I run out of gas before the wheel does.
On the MSX I have positioned the pads in such a way that they give me good low end torque but they are in my way at high speed (MSX creeping tilt-back). So I have a physical cue.

Yesterday on my friend's RS HS I was just flowing in a world of uncertainty wondering how fast I was going.

Now I see riders in the group passing 70kmh on their wheels. I also see the slower riders doing what I perceive as aggressive leans.
They just get on their wheels, lean in there and take off. Sure they slow down at around 45kmh because riding at those speeds is another story... but damn. I can't keep up with Monika when she is on her MSP. And I had trouble keeping up with Dave yesterday on his MSX with standard pads. Simply because they accelerate harder than I do. I just don't have it in me lol. 

I went for a ride a few months back and hit the beeps early in the ride at 63kmh. I was going to do a night ride in the city. When I hit the beeps I said to myself... damn maybe I should go home and get my helmet. Then I realised that it was backwards thinking and that's not what my helmet is for. My helmet is to protect me from an accident... it is not for me to accept an overlean. 

I question many of the choices that Monika made when riding her MSP in this clip (timestamp included bring us to the start of our ride).
And it was quite educational for us to ride each others wheels earlier in the clip. We were much more careful.

She rarely rides over 50kmh and if she does it is because of group dynamics with the faster riders. She does not have the required skill at those speeds though so I am happy that her natural cruising speed is more around 45kmh. That is also well within the limits of the MSP HT which I have carefully taken to 64kmh (beeping at 58). Wearing a helmet of course... dressed for an accident.