V11 Cutout - User Error - Inmotion FTW

[Planemo]

Oh I see, you mean to distinguish between what alarm is actually triggered? 1st/2nd/3rd speed alarms etc. Yes I can now see that what happened here would cause problems. I don't have that issue with my MSX as everything is off except the 80% beep. So if I hear a beep I know it's that. Plus it's continuous. You can dip in and out of it beeping once or 5 times, but theres zero delay. I like it a lot as it's simple and effective. I never understood why someone would want multiple speed alarms, just adds confusion to me (and risk of problems as evidenced here with the V11).

[supercurio]

17 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Oh I see, you mean to distinguish between what alarm is actually triggered? 1st/2nd/3rd speed alarms etc. Yes I can now see that what happened here would cause problems. I don't have that issue with my MSX as everything is off except the 80% beep. So if I hear a beep I know it's that. Plus it's continuous. You can dip in and out of it beeping once or 5 times, but theres zero delay. I like it a lot as it's simple and effective. I never understood why someone would want multiple speed alarms, just adds confusion to me (and risk of problems as evidenced here with the V11).

Inmotion wheels have only one alarm which triggers at max power surges or max speed set by the user or determined by the wheel (SOC / voltage dependent)
Hard tiltback is triggered shortly if the alert conditions continue.

Then there's special cases like "overload, please get off" for overload or overheating.

Gotway and Kingsong allow to activate several alarm levels at fixed speeds.

Edited November 24, 2020 by supercurio

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Inmotion wheels have only one alarm which triggers at max power surges or max speed set by the user or determined by the wheel (SOC / voltage dependent)
Hard tiltback is triggered shortly if the alert conditions continue.

OK...so I'm confused again then if theres only 1 alarm...why the need for the delay? I think I'll go back under me rock lol

[Unventor]

1 minute ago, supercurio said:

Inmotion wheels have only one alarm which triggers at max power surges or max speed set by the user or determined by the wheel (SOC / voltage dependent)
Hard tiltback is triggered shortly if the alert condition conditions.

Then there's special cases like "overload, please get off" for overload or overheating.

Gotway and Kingsong allow to activate several alarm levels at fixed speeds.

 

 

And if you want to you could use EUC.WORLD to set all kind of alarms. So to me it matters less. 

But the pedal response on the V11 tell me a lot of what is going on with the wheel. It us about understanding the feedback and act accordingly. I learned to ride on a V8. Had I learn to ride on a different wheel it might have been different. Yet I like how my V11 speak to me though the pedals. I never saw the point in the GW constant beeping and people either ignore this or disable the sound. 

In the end to me it us like getting the feel of how your car sound even if it is an automatic gearbox. This give you feedback how the car can respond in case you need to accelerate to mix into traffic. 

Once you get up to speed wind noise on a wheel is the bane for many riders. It is hard to hear beeps. So to me pedal feedback works fine for me. 

[Ádám Szitás]

I also did not think anyone cares about audible alarms too much on IM wheels...the pedal response works for me perfectly too and in every scenario, not like audible alarms and it is one of the main reasons I can't be happy with my gotways, maybe because I also learned on an IM wheel?  

I feel like there is not a single thing about wheels we can all agree on, everybody has different tastes, even in things you would think it's impossible to disagree.

[AtlasP]

I can link to multiple threads in which each of these has been the case:

• When manufacturers configure tilt-back to start later and therefore it has to be more pronounced, people complain it is too sudden and/or demand a way to turn it off.
• When manufacturers configure tilt-back to be more gradual and therefore it has to start earlier, people complain it is too subtle/starts too soon/just ride through and ignore the early stages of tilt-back.
• When manufacturers configure constant beeps, people complain the wheel beeps too much and want it to be less frequent and/or demand a way to turn them off.
• When manufacturers configure beeps to be a little less obnoxious, people complain it is too subtle/miss them.

In each case the manufacturers are fighting a battle to make warnings as prominent as possible, without crossing some threshhold of annoyance which will cause a large chunk of users to find ways to disable them.

--

This is quintessential 'the past decade', when people don't like the facts of a situation, so they demand information/warnings be presented differently to them in order to obfuscate facts they don't like. When you experience any form of tilt-back and/or beeps, the fact is you're going too fast for the wheel you own, and the wheel is clearly providing this information via multiple, redundant indicators. Changing how the wheel tells you you're going too fast for that particular piece of hardware, which you should already know based on how it's already been telling you (not to mention its rated specs), won't fundamentally change anything. Riders should try to stay below *all* tilt-back & beeps, or buy a faster wheel which raises these limits to make this easier to achieve.

Edited February 18, 2021 by AtlasP

[supercurio]

33 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

In each case the manufacturers are fighting a battle to make warnings as prominent as possible, without crossing some threshhold of annoyance in which a large chunk of users find ways to disable the warnings.

Great perspective. Safety on EUCs is a delicate balancing act - pun intended.
Maybe because other vehicles out here set the bar high in terms of safety expectations, and self-balancing ones are more challenging by design (can fall off the front, no handlebars for a display etc)

• Fast wheels tend to only beep because hard tilt-backs at high speeds can lead to hazardous results (around car traffic, wobbles)
  But then many can't hear the beeps at high speed due to wind noise
• Slower wheels with tilt-back are easy to get to max speed and give a good sense of the current speed via the pedal angle.
  But they feel too slow quickly and end up being often ridden on soft tilt-back or close to hard tilt-back, making it less effective.

In these cases it becomes the rider responsibility to hear the beeps or feel the tilt-back correctly.
These warnings should be 100% reliable and consistent, which is IMO not the case with the time gap of the V11 audio alarm illustrated here.

As shown in the graphical analysis linked: tilt-back was only mild at 4° and contradicted by the absence of beeps.

Edited November 24, 2020 by supercurio

[Planemo]

30 minutes ago, supercurio said:

 

• Fast wheels tend to only beep because hard tilt-backs at high speeds can lead to hazardous results (around car traffic, wobbles)
  But then many can't hear the beeps at high speed due to wind noise

Totally agree with this. The last thing I want at 40 odd mph is a wheel tilting back unexpectedly. Theres just too much going on at those speeds, my sensory inputs are cranked to 11 and the pedal inputs so precise and delicate that ANY change to how those pedals feel would put me right off my game. With my relocated MSX buzzer I can hear it, and that's all I want. Just something to tell me that I am nearing the wheels max power output. I am not even interested in whether I am doing 36 or 40mph.

I do appreciate that tiltback might be more appropriate at speeds up to 30mph where pedal inputs are not so dicey but even then I think I would prefer an audible alarm only. However, as well quoted below....

30 minutes ago, supercurio said:

These warnings should be 100% reliable and consistent, which is IMO not the case with the time gap of the V11 audio alarm illustrated here.

....it's futile when theres any delay. A lot can (and did indeed) happen in 5 seconds.

[Jonesq]

5 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Totally agree with this. The last thing I want at 40 odd mph is a wheel tilting back unexpectedly. Theres just too much going on at those speeds, my sensory inputs are cranked to 11 and the pedal inputs so precise and delicate that ANY change to how those pedals feel would put me right off my game. With my relocated MSX buzzer I can hear it, and that's all I want. Just something to tell me that I am nearing the wheels max power output. I am not even interested in whether I am doing 36 or 40mph.

I do appreciate that tiltback might be more appropriate at speeds up to 30mph where pedal inputs are not so dicey but even then I think I would prefer an audible alarm only. However, as well quoted below....

....it's futile when theres any delay. A lot can (and did indeed) happen in 5 seconds.

Has anyone actually crashed as a result of tiltback at high speeds? 

I know I see people complain about it all the time and it used to be really bad on my KS18XL but I can't recall anyone actually reporting that tiltback caused a wreck.

[supercurio]

33 minutes ago, Jonesq said:

Has anyone actually crashed as a result of tiltback at high speeds? 

I know I see people complain about it all the time and it used to be really bad on my KS18XL but I can't recall anyone actually reporting that tiltback caused a wreck.

Maybe @Claire Chambers describing sudden massive wobbles after hearing the alarm? (speculation)
I find the current hard tilt-back on 16X very responsive and manageable even at 50 km/h tho, especially when associated with the beeps: it's easy to identify and cancel instantly by subtly backing off.

Maybe hard tilt-backs are more scary than dangerous at higher speed due to the loss of control, with the exception of vehicles following you too close or particularly wobbly wheel/tire setups - because it can make you brake with poor form.
Quality of implementation would matters a lot at even higher speed. If done well maybe it would be fine even at 70+kph.

The combination of reliable beeps + tilt-back can be effective and offer a welcome redundancy of signals to the riders.

[EUChristian]

8 hours ago, supercurio said:

To put in perspective, here is an annotated version of @Inmotion Global's excellent graph.

What you can see is that the user reacted to the alarm as expected - in brown.
Then everything that went wrong was within this long 5 second gap during which the user was deprived of the expected auditory feedback from the wheel - in red.

Hopefully anyone can see on this graph why this 5 second delay until the next alarm makes it an unreliable and dangerous alarm implementation.

Since users can record their own alert sounds in the app, there are additional challenges to make the alarm continuous compared to a simple beeper, but it is certainly feasible and will contribute to making Inmotion wheels significantly safer.

 

In short, it's pretty straightforward and IMHO the direct reason why @EUChristian experienced a cutout.

So it plays the file and then delays 5 seconds playing the file again?  Didn't know this brand worked this way. Now I know. 

Kingsong will continuously ding three times (tiny delay between three beep groupings) then if you slow it will continuously ding two times (delay again between the two beeps) until you slow. 

If what you say is true...not a good system. Its not like Gotway or Kingsong and presumably Veteran (unsure on that). The deal is if you want to have EUCs running these speeds you need continuous haptic feedback. Not saying it wasn't my fault but to compete in that sector I would move to that system. 

Those of you saying slow down - go play in another thread - we are trying to solve things here not complain. At least I'm not and supercurios point is valid here. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by EUChristian

[Ádám Szitás]

Okay let's go through this again...the time between the beeps is not 5 seconds, I recorded it just to measure it, I lifted the wheel, in 3 seconds it did the loud horns 4 times, the basic soundfile that it plays is 2 horns, even if it did only play once, it lasts 1-1.5 seconds and in that time he accelerated from around 40 to 50 according to the graph.

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

As shown in the graphical analysis linked: tilt-back was only mild at 4° and contradicted by the absence of beeps.

It was not a mild 4 degree tiltback, it was 7.9..from 4 to -3.9. You have a wheel that let's you change pedal tilt so try these and then stand on it, there is no way you would say it's a mild change.

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Totally agree with this. The last thing I want at 40 odd mph is a wheel tilting back unexpectedly. Theres just too much going on at those speeds, my sensory inputs are cranked to 11 and the pedal inputs so precise and delicate that ANY change to how those pedals feel would put me right off my game.

So you know you are getting close to the limits and that the wheel has tiltback (not gotway) yet it would be unexpected?? And if this throws you off you really should not be riding at those speeds at the first place.

Also, tilt back is as harsh as you are. Set it at 10mph and try going into it with varying force. if you do it slowly, it will tilt back only gently increasing slowly as you increase your speed. If you do it fast it will be a hard tiltback that starts sooner.

 

 

 

[Jonesq]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Maybe @Claire Chambers describing sudden massive wobbles after hearing the alarm? (speculation)
I find the current hard tilt-back on 16X very responsive and manageable even at 50 km/h tho, especially when associated with the beeps: it's easy to identify and cancel instantly by subtly backing off.

Maybe hard tilt-backs are more scary than dangerous at higher speed due to the loss of control, with the exception of vehicles following you too close or particularly wobbly wheel/tire setups - because it can make you brake with poor form.
Quality of implementation would matters a lot at even higher speed. If done well maybe it would be fine even at 70+kph.

The combination of reliable beeps + tilt-back can be effective and offer a welcome redundancy of signals to the riders.

My 18XL had pretty harsh tilt back until a firmware update fixed it. I've been startled by it and was also worried that it could cause a wreck, but I've never actually wrecked or almost wrecked because of the tilt back.

I just hope that the V11 tiltback is similar to what Kingsong has now as I think that system works really well.

[EUChristian]

7 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Okay let's go through this again...the time between the beeps is not 5 seconds, I recorded it just to measure it, I lifted the wheel, in 3 seconds it did the loud horns 4 times, the basic soundfile that it plays is 2 horns, even if it did only play once, it lasts 1-1.5 seconds and in that time he accelerated from around 40 to 50 according to the graph.

It was not a mild 4 degree tiltback, it was 7.9..from 4 to -3.9. You have a wheel that let's you change pedal tilt so try these and then stand on it, there is no way you would say it's a mild change.

So you know you are getting close to the limits and that the wheel has tiltback (not gotway) yet it would be unexpected?? And if this throws you off you really should not be riding at those speeds at the first place.

Also, tilt back is as harsh as you are. Set it at 10mph and try going into it with varying force. if you do it slowly, it will tilt back only gently increasing slowly as you increase your speed. If you do it fast it will be a hard tiltback that starts sooner.

 

 

 

Are you saying the sound file will repeat once ever 1.5 seconds while above threshold?  Not as bad as 5 seconds agreed. 

Didn't fall off due to tiltback, wish that was the reason. 

Also agree on the shift of 7.9 degrees, not sure how that happened but it clearly did. 

I would be done with a sound file for beeps and just beep repetitively if I was running wheels at these speeds.

[Ádám Szitás]

Yes and as the soundfile is 1 second long it is basically continuous but I will go tomorrow and test it for real with lower set tiltback and come back with what I've got.

[EUChristian]

42 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Yes and as the soundfile is 1 second long it is basically continuous but I will go tomorrow and test it for real with lower set tiltback and come back with what I've got.

Then perhaps I should just record a beeping?  Are all alarms the same then in EUC world? In other words each setting is the same alarm right? So no progression of beeps - you just get the same file. 

So if I recorded a beep I would get a beep every 1.5 seconds regardless of what threshold I was at?  Say I had an alarm at 26mph and another at 30mph...how do I distinguish what beep I'm at if it plays the same file?

[.....]

38 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Then perhaps I should just record a beeping?  Are all alarms the same then in EUC world? In other words each setting is the same alarm right? So no progression of beeps - you just get the same file. 

So if I recorded a beep I would get a beep every 1.5 seconds regardless of what threshold I was at?  Say I had an alarm at 26mph and another at 30mph...how do I distinguish what beep I'm at if it plays the same file?

Sounds to me like you are still trying to use the 'alarms' as more an audible speedometer? You could always look down at your speed, or try to recall which alarm you have ignored and which alarm you are on now. Personally, I think it should be more like an ALARM. You know, don't try and ride between alarms. I get what you're trying to accomplish, but maybe in light of recent events for you, it's time to rethink these sounds as more like alarms than referance points? I only need one alarm and it needs be audible with headroom to spare. Since I'm using it to WARN me to slow down, I dont see why having a second and third alarm would help? I'm not trainnig myself to ignore alarms here.

Apologies as this doesnt answer your question, and i do understand what you are hoping to accomplish. However, I don't really understand why? Its not like you are setting an alarm to stay under a certain legal speed, and another alarm set to another legal but higher speed. I view these alarms like a fire alarm. Its either on or it aint. Having it variable for voltage drop and battery % is also kind of important. I personally need to quit eyeballing actual speeds and relinquishing to the fact that a speed 'limit' is a misnomer, as its constantly changing, IF we are trying to stay within a threshold of overlean safety. Thankfully, my alarms still cause me to immediately rethink my current ride speeds and strategy. I've enough things to ignore worrying about, crashing from overlean is one I hope to mitigate. I USED to ride the beeps and not worry about tiltback on my 18L. After reading and thinking and seeing enough around here, I'm viewing tiltback as an error on my part, not a simple suggestion on the wheel's part. Just my $0.02, and I'm not  known for being overly cautious.

Edited November 25, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Jonesq said:

Has anyone actually crashed as a result of tiltback at high speeds? 

There was a peculiar incident a while ago that could classify as one. IIRC, a beginner didn’t know about tilt-backs, and when it happened, his reflexes made him lean further forward to regain balance, accelerating all the way to the cut-off. I don’t remember which wheel it was, but could’ve been in the 16S/V8 class.

 

Back on this subject, I’m not sure what would be achieved from changing the warnings and tilt-back behavior to better suit a single person’s experience from using other manufacturers’ wheels. I had a lot of miles on an IPS, a KS and a GW, yet I found the top speed alarm and tilt-back behavior on the V11 to do their job pretty much perfectly from day one.

 Regardless of the wheel being used, accelerating fast all the way up to the top speed, and even continuing to do so immediately after an alarm and a tilt-back... is not an issue of how the alarms are presented to the user.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Regardless of the wheel being used, accelerating fast all the way up to the top speed, and even continuing to do so immediately after an alarm and a tilt-back... is not an issue of how the alarms are presented to the user.

I agree with you on this. Riding an EUC is not the same as riding a MC or driving a car. As a rider one must learn how an EUC reacts and top speed means something very different than a top speed of a MC or a car. Or even an escooters for that matter. 

It is also why I don't ride to top speed on my wheels despite recently increasing setting to 50kmh on my V11. I really like the pedal feedback over the alarms function. 

But if folks want more alarms settings I can only suggest you look at all the options and dependency you have in EUC.WORLD. Have it coming from the app you can direct this into headset or BT speaker option even vibration active. 

But keep in mind that to do this on 99% of top speed, leaves you very little time to react. 

I would not ride a moped, mc or car with full throttle to speed limit either. Especial in an EUC. It take time to get a natural link to how each model and brand behaves. I think this thread is a very fine example of this. If you as an rider not to feel any risk riding top speed that is when you really need to think about how you ride. Because your natural instinct is not helping you to avoid an incident. Adding aggressive ride style to the equation just stress this evening further imo. 

With people not starting on low powered wheels anymore, the risk of learning EUC behaviour is a lot higher as the "ohh that does not work out" lesson happens at much higher speeds meaning impact forces are that much greater. 

Due to this is why I feel blessed with my incidents I had as I in general have excape with injuries that healed up (so far). 

I am at an age where I know I am not 20 years old and I mortal anymore. And I feel pain (for a long time) when things go bad. 

I am not saying everyone else are mortals. I am trying to say if you find yourself in a situation where you get to test what group you are in, chances are you might be surprised and it is too late to do anything about it. That is what I hope we don't get to read about in the news or getting a link to here. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Unventor
When I write you here I mean riders in general not referring to MrElwood as such. I am sure his experience is far more superior to mine.

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There was a peculiar incident a while ago that could classify as one. IIRC, a beginner didn’t know about tilt-backs, and when it happened, his reflexes made him lean further forward to regain balance, accelerating all the way to the cut-off. I don’t remember which wheel it was, but could’ve been in the 16S/V8 class.

 

Back on this subject, I’m not sure what would be achieved from changing the warnings and tilt-back behavior to better suit a single person’s experience from using other manufacturers’ wheels. I had a lot of miles on an IPS, a KS and a GW, yet I found the top speed alarm and tilt-back behavior on the V11 to do their job pretty much perfectly from day one.

 Regardless of the wheel being used, accelerating fast all the way up to the top speed, and even continuing to do so immediately after an alarm and a tilt-back... is not an issue of how the alarms are presented to the user.

This argument sir...you and others keep passively aggressively making a variation of the argument below again and again:

-You don't really know how to ride these things. They aren't meant to accelerate fast to top speed. 

-Stop attempting to make this product more safe. You are the problem because you don't know how to ride these things, thats clear because you operate it like you paid 2k for it and you don't want to go 10mph slower than top speed forever because it might throw you. 

Look my man I get what you are saying but you don't get at all what I am. We all look at things based on our individual experience. Look at it from my point of view. I feel like I'm in a new insane cult world where my real world problem is I have very little overhead near top speed (which was increased last minute) and I potentially saw how volatile that increase cost the overhead potentially to work with, warned others and suddenly its like I've knocked the sacred cow of the EUC religion.  Initially I was surprised and physical hurt and jumped to conclusions but we are beyond that now. I get it i pushed it too hard. But if I did that means others will too because the bump to 34 came at a price on the units margin of safety. 

Let me be clear here about my stance and you can go on debating the functional vs utilitarian philosophy of speed and unicycles - my one and only stance is this- don't use fancier mode. Its a great product its beautiful is smooth its brilliant suspension but don't take the thing beyond 31 mph. I'm not going to ride looking down at my wrist and if I constantly have to fear blowing through a tilt then this wheel isn't ready for the 34mph range. So set to 31 and enjoy your wheel. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by EUChristian

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

This argument sir...you and others keep passively aggressively making a variation of the argument below again and again:

You are free to take it the way you want. But the following quote - overly emphasized and sarcastic or not - makes it sound like you still haven’t understood what the issue was. Which does merit further discussion, whether you get offended or not.

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

-Stop attempting to make this product more safe. You are the problem because you don't know how to ride these things, thats clear because you operate it like you paid 2k for it and you don't want to go 10mph slower than top speed forever because it might throw you. 

All EUCs are speciality devices, and require knowledge about the riding characteristics, battery management, and operational limits, amongst many other things. The wheels really don’t care “where you are coming from” or “who you are”, they all operate on a freak physical imbalance that was harnessed for this just a short while ago. They all still have a long way to go to meet your expectations of a vehicle. We only saw the first EUCs even reach 30mph a few years ago.

 That’s one of the reasons of existence for this forum, to share information about how to use these things. And that’s what I’ve been trying to do, too explain why this happened to you. Hopefully in a way that prevents it from happening to you ever again.

For perspective, have you seen the video where a guy was drinking beer and very slowly and carefully accelerated beyond the cut-off speed on a GW Monster? I tried to wake a calling for any safety measure at all to prevent that from being a purposeful event on GW wheels. Response? Every single person who replied thought that the complete absence of safety measures is cool, no reason to change things.

 That’s why trying to point out safety issues on arguably the safest EUC to date isn’t going very well for you.

 

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

But if I did that means others will too

I wouldn’t be so sure. To my knowledge you are the first one that has done this, out of the presumably thousands of V11 owners. 

 

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

this wheel isn't ready for the 34mph range. So set to 31

Don’t expect the V11 to behave very differently at 31 mph, or you’ll soon be starting a new very similiar topic. It can still be overleaned. The free spin speed of the V11 is well beyond 80km/h. A GW with similar characteristics only starts to beep at around 65km/h, and some people regularly push them past that. What they don’t do though is accelerate fast at those speeds.

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Okay let's go through this again...the time between the beeps is not 5 seconds, I recorded it just to measure it, I lifted the wheel, in 3 seconds it did the loud horns 4 times, the basic soundfile that it plays is 2 horns, even if it did only play once, it lasts 1-1.5 seconds and in that time he accelerated from around 40 to 50 according to the graph.

It was not a mild 4 degree tiltback, it was 7.9..from 4 to -3.9. You have a wheel that let's you change pedal tilt so try these and then stand on it, there is no way you would say it's a mild change.

So you know you are getting close to the limits and that the wheel has tiltback (not gotway) yet it would be unexpected?? And if this throws you off you really should not be riding at those speeds at the first place.

Also, tilt back is as harsh as you are. Set it at 10mph and try going into it with varying force. if you do it slowly, it will tilt back only gently increasing slowly as you increase your speed. If you do it fast it will be a hard tiltback that starts sooner.

 

 

 

Thanks for testing and recording your wheel 👍

I'm very surprised that you observed a result that is different than what Liam @Inmotion Global described as the V11 alarm behavior.

I'm gonna try to replicate this as well on my V10F and report the findings.

Also, are there differences in repetition and delay between the default beeping alert sound and a custom one? @EUChristian wrote that he recorded his own voice as alarm sound.

 

Regarding tilt-back yeah 8° of change is noticeable. However Inmotion wheels are tilting for all sort of reasons and it can be sometimes unclear why a change happens (especially in softer pedal settings). Typically if you accelerate the wheel tilts forward to help with your acceleration. The end of forward tilt might indicate either that it's the beginning of a tilt-back or that you stopped pressing on as rider, reducing your power demand and acceleration.

That's why I mentioned that although the shift from 4 to -3.9° is quite significant, the actual (literal) tilt back of -3.9° is not that much.

I wonder also how the power pads and the stance required influence the tilt-back perception.

Agree it's a good idea to practice by setting the speed limit at lower speed and see what the wheel does. I find the hard tilt-back much more clear at lower speed than max however. Not sure if it's because I'm a lot more careful or if it's because it's only transitioning from the angle of the soft tilt-back.

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Then perhaps I should just record a beeping?  Are all alarms the same then in EUC world? In other words each setting is the same alarm right? So no progression of beeps - you just get the same file. 

So if I recorded a beep I would get a beep every 1.5 seconds regardless of what threshold I was at?  Say I had an alarm at 26mph and another at 30mph...how do I distinguish what beep I'm at if it plays the same file?

I found the default alarm sound on the V10F very effective. It's a double horn sound. It's quite unique sounding in a way and can't be mistaken for something else. Since it's not a high frequency beep like from your typical wheel beeper it's much more audible and won't be blocked by helmets and masked by wind noise as much.

As good as this alarm is I'm worried about the gaps / delays still.

The V11 speaker might not be as powerful as the V10F dual speakers however.

Like others I would not recommend to have alarms at different speeds, because it will condition you to interpret some alarms as information (and ignore them, basically). With distractions, fatigue, wind and traffic noise, group dynamics it's pretty much guaranteed that your brain will mistake one alarm for another at some point and ignore what's protecting you from a crash.

So either a single alarm, from the wheel (default one is good), or wheel + App alarm. As long as you know to respect both religiously and not end up ignoring one until you don't reach the other. We all have different risk behavior so you only can tell what'll keep you safe for sure.

For app alarms, @Seba mentioned that Inverter Load will become available on Inmotion wheels and that might become an excellent source of data for safety alarms.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by supercurio

[EUChristian]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You are free to take it the way you want. But the following quote - overly emphasized and sarcastic or not - makes it sound like you still haven’t understood what the issue was. Which does merit further discussion, whether you get offended or not.

All EUCs are speciality devices, and require knowledge about the riding characteristics, battery management, and operational limits, amongst many other things. The wheels really don’t care “where you are coming from” or “who you are”, they all operate on a freak physical imbalance that was harnessed for this just a short while ago. They all still have a long way to go to meet your expectations of a vehicle. We only saw the first EUCs even reach 30mph a few years ago.

 That’s one of the reasons of existence for this forum, to share information about how to use these things. And that’s what I’ve been trying to do, too explain why this happened to you. Hopefully in a way that prevents it from happening to you ever again.

For perspective, have you seen the video where a guy was drinking beer and very slowly and carefully accelerated beyond the cut-off speed on a GW Monster? I tried to wake a calling for any safety measure at all to prevent that from being a purposeful event on GW wheels. Response? Every single person who replied thought that the complete absence of safety measures is cool, no reason to change things.

 That’s why trying to point out safety issues on arguably the safest EUC to date isn’t going very well for you.

 

I wouldn’t be so sure. To my knowledge you are the first one that has done this, out of the presumably thousands of V11 owners. 

 

Don’t expect the V11 to behave very differently at 31 mph, or you’ll soon be starting a new very similiar topic. It can still be overleaned. The free spin speed of the V11 is well beyond 80km/h. A GW with similar characteristics only starts to beep at around 65km/h, and some people regularly push them past that. What they don’t do though is accelerate fast at those speeds.

"Trying to point out safety issues isn't going well for me?"  What does that mean sir..because a couple people keep reiterating that I ride too fast somehow the thread "isn't going well for me"?  Is this a contest?  A cult?  I've said i don't know how many times its not the wheels fault it was my expectations of it. Which are based on what what is advertised not the nuanced discussions of an internet forum. Now that I better understand I can give that experience up to date and post about it in the hopes that someone else doesn't push it too hard. That is what I'm attempting to let people know. That it doesn't work well when accelerating to top speed. Which is your point too ironically. 

Secondly your claim that I will be the only one to overlean this wheel based on expectations coming from another wheel across all other people for all of the future...thats just an arrogant comment made out so I look like the lone idiot...how anyone could ever make this mistake is beyond me!  I will literally be the only person to do this ever and my experience is invalidated! Are you serious sir because you say things that make some sense - admittedly - and then you say things like this which clearly are meant to make me look like an idiot with no basis in reality. You know what I mean. I was doing the whole internet muscle thing back in 2002 I know how the passive aggressive wisdom posting goes. 

Can you let me know when the thread is going better for me?  Your opinion is valued. I'm just here for discussion and analysis. 

Its a great wheel. It was my fault. Have a good day sir. 

[EUChristian]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

I found the default alarm sound on the V10F very effective. It's a double horn sound. It's quite unique sounding in a way and can't be mistaken for something else. Since it's not a high frequency beep like from your typical wheel beeper it's much more audible and won't be blocked by helmets and masked by wind noise as much.

As good as this alarm is I'm worried about the gaps / delays still.

The V11 speaker might not be as powerful as the V10F dual speakers however.

Like others I would not recommend to have alarms at different speeds, because it will condition you to interpret some alarms as information (and ignore them, basically). With distractions, fatigue, wind and traffic noise, group dynamics it's pretty much guaranteed that your brain will mistake one alarm for another at some point and ignore what's protecting you from a crash.

So either a single alarm, from the wheel (default one is good), or wheel + App alarm. As long as you know to respect both religiously and not end up ignoring one until you don't reach the other. We all have different risk behavior so you only can tell what'll keep you safe for sure.

For app alarms, @Seba mentioned that Inverter Load will become available on Inmotion wheels and that might become an excellent source of data for safety alarms.

 

What if I reduced tiltback to 28 vs alarms at all?  Maybe a better question- do you just ride at 26 as long as possible until you *know* what it feels like?