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V11 Cutout - User Error - Inmotion FTW


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1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Liam and I are working out the kinks of what happened and I commend him for quickly reaching out to me. Based on what I'm reading here I'm going to draw some conclusions and one of then is high powered EUCs just don't work like I thought they did. That's on me. I know for a fact I have pushed this harder than I did on this day and maybe it is true that somehow I rocked it forward a bit and that caused it to dump me.  I just don't get that. At 96% power and 3kmh below top speed i did not realize I was riding a razor thin margin.  Thats on me.  I will use EUC World to replace and make it top at 30mph on fancier and 28 on less than 80%  

I do not think Inmotion is at fault here but I would like to hopefully provide them with a log that they could diagnose and if it is software related - fix it. In my opinion if you are close to full battery and not trying to kill yourself you should have the headroom to compensate for that. 

After the initial incredible pain I reacted perhaps too quick in saying I will not ride again. I will just baby it and sadly I do like to play on these but it is what it is. First I need to fix my baby. A few things I could use advice on. The suspension is screwed up (at different heights) i will try to get that working. The handle blew off. Can it be put back on?  Finally - i attached a pic of the frame itself under the saddle broke at the place the saddle screws into it. I'm guessing a strong concrete cement or jbweld to put back together?

Thank you all for your advice and help. 

 

All in all... there is no magic. If we look at the fast 84v wheel from Gotway. The MSX 84v. It is said to beep at 55kmh and full battery. It beeps at a little over 53kmh... 53.2kmh maybe with me on it. 66kg rider. This is with 18650 cells in 20s6p. The 5 beeps = 80% power warning. No tiltback to steal power.

Now let's look at the 18XL and 16X. Also 20s6p config. Max speed of 50kmh. The soft tilt-back on these wheels is the 80% power warning.

Now we have the V11. For professionals. And a fancy mode. And a 4P config.
What magic will make it faster than a MSX 84v, 16X and 18XL with a higher watt motor and still be safe?
Apparently the safety is off if the fancy mode is on.

Riding my 16X I would always set my alarm at 45kmh and then crawl the last 5kmh to 50kmh and ride the soft tiltback. Now and then.. but not always... because I always had the feeling that if I made one mistake that it would dump me. It never did though. So maybe I should start living my life.

Different tools for different things I guess. I have taken a few falls and I am overly careful when riding. With a helmet on less so.

Now if I did do a donkey lean on the 16X it would slow me down before the top speed as it would reach 80% load earlier because of my heavy acceleration.
And wasn't this the case with Kuji when he did a donkey acceleration on the V11?


 

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(All the data below are collected from the log uploaded by Joshua) What cause the accdient?  After passing 50km/h with the tiltback angle of 3.9 degree, Joshua was still trying to push harde

Thank you Liam and Inmotion.  And thank you for the kind words on recovery. I'm going to lower the speed warnings and tiltback going forward.  I'm not sure how often the other brands reach put at

This is simply amazing news. I am VERY impressed with the transparency and willingness to even approach the complaint. Thank you Inmotion! So it does seem that it wasnt a glitch, rather an overlean co

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1 minute ago, EUChristian said:

I uploaded it successfully and then sent a PM with my serial number...unsure how else they can link the upload to me or my unit. Any ideas?  It simply "uploads" and then the prompt disappears. 

I am sure Liam and his team can get something out of this. 

They were very sure what happen when I did beta testing of fw. They knew exactly how long time and what speeds the tilt back kicked it (before beta) so I knew the sensation. But it cought me by surprise despite anticipated for it. So I have to walk of. I were at an incline when it happen and with my bad knee it is hard to step of while pedals are at max tilted backwards. 

So might think my mc suit looks to be overkill. But ot make me feel safer when odd things happen. And it is great when weather is poorly as I don't have Southern California weather at my place. Here it is windy, rainy or even show/icey so sunshine is a rare thing for longer periods. 

That is also why thank the OP for sharing. It is so easy to feel safe on modern wheels compared to 3-4 years old models. But things still happen. So a reminder is never out of place. Imho. 

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36 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Good news all around. Liam has received the log and is having his engineer review. Jason has gotten back to me and we are looking at methods of refurbishing the wheel. My neck is in much better shape today and I no longer feel like a bobble head. I went out and sat with my machine. We talked about what she did and I think she's sorry. I'm telling you I love this wheel. Truly. 

Here is my question because I have fear now. If I turn off fancier mode and never crank on it but ride it around 50kph will this in all probability happen again?  I admit I love the speed and if I'm stuck at 25mph thats a problem for me. This should be able to keep this from happening if it was an overlean, yes?  I think the engineer will shine light on that and we will have some understanding. 

I think you are asking for answers that any honest person couldnt really answer. So, you must be looking for assurance to ease the troubled mind.

Here's what you NEED to hear. If you ride carefully and treat the wheel right, gear up right and perform good maintenance, you needn't worry about her hurting you ever again. As long as the doctors at Inmotion clear her for use, she'll treat you perfectly. If you act right, you can live forever and NEVER worry about being hurt or becoming ill...    

So there you have it, straight from the keyboard of a man who is totally full of shit, but is willing to tell you whatever it takes, so you can regain that youthful enjoyment you had, prior to this mere interlude.  :cheers:

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Here is my question because I have fear now. If I turn off fancier mode and never crank on it but ride it around 50kph will this in all probability happen again?  I admit I love the speed and if I'm stuck at 25mph thats a problem for me. This should be able to keep this from happening if it was an overlean, yes?  I think the engineer will shine light on that and we will have some understanding.

You had an overlean at 52.5km/h... And you want to keep riding at 50km/h??? :blink1:

I see that you're one of those people... Had a very close call, but still willing to risk a serious injury for some adrenaline.
Well, I believe that risk taking is genetic. There is no use to try to convince you to increase your safety margins.

Edited by atdlzpae
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2 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Good news all around. Liam has received the log and is having his engineer review. Jason has gotten back to me and we are looking at methods of refurbishing the wheel. My neck is in much better shape today and I no longer feel like a bobble head. I went out and sat with my machine. We talked about what she did and I think she's sorry. I'm telling you I love this wheel. Truly.

If you had problems with your neck after the crash you should go check it out in a hospital to be on the safe side, injuries can creep up on you much later and then it's too late both from a medical and insurance stand-point, so better safe than sorry.

 

1 hour ago, atdlzpae said:

You had an overlean at 52.5km/h... And you want to keep riding at 50km/h??? :blink1:

I see that you're one of those people... Had a very close call, but still willing to risk a serious injury for some adrenaline.
Well, I believe that risk taking is genetic. There is no use to try to convince you to increase your safety margins.

Now this is just hyperbole, he's trying to find the a good margin for the wheel, the wheel is supposed to be able to handle 50kmh or even 55kmh in fancy mode so it's not strange to ride it up to those speeds. If this was indeed an over-lean the take away isn't to lower speed it is to not over-lean.

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22 hours ago, Wgm said:

Nah, this is like the 6th issues where either the board died or it was pushed too hard on this forum. 

Six out of how many? Keep things in perspective: so far that is a very good safety record, better than most if not all. Also you need to factor in how many high speed wipeouts the suspension prevents (from hitting unexpected potholes, etc).  I think if you do the math the V11 is still the safest wheel on the market.

Maybe "Fancy Mode" should be renamed to "Risky Mode" and should warn you even more than it already does.

 

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7 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Here is my question because I have fear now. If I turn off fancier mode and never crank on it but ride it around 50kph will this in all probability happen again?  I admit I love the speed and if I'm stuck at 25mph thats a problem for me. This should be able to keep this from happening if it was an overlean, yes?  I think the engineer will shine light on that and we will have some understanding. 

First part will be easier to answer once Liam and his team have analysed the data. 

I am not posting my opinion here, but you should ask if it is speed or aggressive riding you like?  And how you will do in the future. 

As of the fear of riding I can say from personal experience I am one of those that has to get up and ride ASAP. Even if it is unhealthy for my body. I can't stop on a failure/crash. This is how my mind works. 

If I were in your case I can't honestly say how I would react. I hope I never get to be on your case. 

In general I don't crave for speed. I look for challanges. It can be going as slow as possible or uneven terrain on a forrest trail. Speed itself is never my goal. 

The reason why is speed is something your mind get used to. And that can be very dangerous if you are not mindful about this fact. I learned this taking my licence for driving a car.

Coming of the highway into a 40kmh city zone felt like parking. And we were only 15min on a highway at 110kmh. 

I have no opinion of your case. I don't know all facts and I were not in your situation so I can't judge anything. 

But I can control how I ride just as I am in control of my car (once I get a new one) I drive. I am not an angel but I am very aware how a car can hurt people. As a bicyclist I have been in very close calls because cars very speeding or not following basic traffic rules. 

Same on an EUC but here I ride a bit more defensive, until I am committed to a pass or crossing in traffic. 

I hope my post help you to find your answer as I think this has to come from inside yourself. 

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That's an interesting graph! Maintaining a high speed is not actually that demanding. It's the acceleration that requires most power. You can also see how power demand fluctuates while speed stays linear. That's why it's so dangerous to ride at the limit. The wheel has to also keep the rider balanced. Slight uphill, small irregularities on the road, wind gushes or the rider changing position can cause a peak in demand and an over lean situation. 

The free spin speed has been measured to be 86 km/h. The V11 should be very comparable to the original 84V MSX in performance. 55 km/h is doable but hard accelerations should be done only up to 40 km/h and then go very easy to higher speeds. The good news is that there was no hardware or software failure. 

On the graph you can also see that the battery percentage is smoothed out like in electric cars and not directly fluctuating with voltage as in most other wheels. 

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1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Thank you Liam and Inmotion.  And thank you for the kind words on recovery. I'm going to lower the speed warnings and tiltback going forward. 

I'm not sure how often the other brands reach put at this level with this detail but I'm glad I purchased from Inmotion. 

Looks like I am at fault here folks. I'm glad we figured it out. Please know what you are dealing with here at these speeds and stay safe. 

Just for my understanding: how have you been able to continue to accelerate with the pedals already tilted back?

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23 minutes ago, XaXou said:

Just for my understanding: how have you been able to continue to accelerate with the pedals already tilted back?

1) the pedals likely did not have time to tilt back

2) You can continue to accelerate even with the pedals tilted. The tilt is just a message to slow down. My people have been known to ride the tilt. 
 

3) IMO The tilt could actually cause the problem. If you are accelerating and the the wheel tilts the tilt actually adds to the problem. It applies more pressure to the toe and requests more power that you don’t have. 

Edited by RockyTop
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16 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

3) IMO The tilt could actually cause the problem. If you are accelerating and the the wheel tilts the tilt actually adds to the problem. It applies more pressure to the toe and requests more power that you don’t have. 

I think I'd much rather have the tilt back and just rely on common sense to stop me accelerating madly as I approach the top speed ;) 

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1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

1) the pedals likely did not have time to tilt back

2) You can continue to accelerate even with the pedals tilted. The tilt is just a message to slow down. My people have been known to ride the tilt. 
 

3) IMO The tilt could actually cause the problem. If you are accelerating and the the wheel tilts the tilt actually adds to the problem. It applies more pressure to the toe and requests more power that you don’t have. 

Imo the tilt should lessen the power needed to balance the wheel (i.e. the more the pedals tilt back, the less you can lean forward past the center of gravity).

 

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1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I think I'd much rather have the tilt back and just rely on common sense to stop me accelerating madly as I approach the top speed ;) 

 

46 minutes ago, Jonesq said:

Imo the tilt should lessen the power needed to balance the wheel (i.e. the more the pedals tilt back, the less you can lean forward past the center of gravity).

 

My point is that it takes even more energy to tilt you back making a bad situation worse. Once you are tilted back you are using less energy. The solution is to not accelerate near top speed. 

Also the tilt doesn’t really work on me anymore. I end up correcting for the tilt unintentionally. It does not tilt me back at all so now I have to awkwardly back off with my toes pointing up. While trying not accelerate because I have too much pressure on my toes while trying to lean back.

Edited by RockyTop
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Fully understand what you're saying and it's definitely an interesting point but we do need something to slow us down. The beeps aren't much good at higher as they can't be heard. I'm not sure how much hardware would be needed to make the wheel vibrate instead of beep - maybe that would work. Perhaps even having momentary gaps in the power output would also alert the rider and stop them riding too fast especially if the gaps increased the faster you rode. It would certainly make me soil my pants.

I must admit I'm impressed by the log analysis. It certainly protects the manufacturer against false claims and also reassures owners that there's nothing wrong with their wheel.

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  • EUChristian changed the title to V11 Cutout - User Error - Inmotion FTW

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