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V11 Cutout - User Error - Inmotion FTW


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53 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

What if I reduced tiltback to 28 vs alarms at all?  Maybe a better question- do you just ride at 26 as long as possible until you *know* what it feels like?

Setting the maximum speed to 28 mph will help with safety at high state of charge, as long as you don't keep in the back of your mind that it's okay to go beyond because the wheel can technically go further.

At lower state of charges or with battery sag, the speed will be limited lower than 28 mph by the wheel anyway since the lower voltage of the battery reduces how fast the motor can spin, also how much current can be drawn, reducing the safety margin significantly.

Fixed speed limits can help to some extent but make no difference where the wheel reach its maximum capacity due to acceleration, uphill, bumps, wind, state of charge or a combination of all these of course. Then both the quality of feedback from the wheel and the rider's ability to perceived it matters most.

Quality of audio feedback could be better (gap?) but I feel the same as @Unventor regarding feedback from the pedals, it's very good on Inmotion wheels. I would recommend only Inmotion wheels to a deaf person for instance. From the pedal angle only you can tell which speed you're at, how much stress/sag there's on the battery, how close you're from the limit (at least on the V10F thanks to its progressive soft tiltback - which also has it's downside)

Therefore speed is only one of the parameters at play. A major one of course, but unfortunately you can't know everything that can happen by identifying precisely the speed alone.

I personally keep in mind the effort it takes to cycle where I ride my wheel. It's a good parallel to imagine the demands on a wheel based on speed/acceleration/incline/wind/aerodynamics.

For now I have good confidence on the safety of my V10F, low confidence in the my 16X safety (can get scary overleaning-like pedal dipping before or with no alarm triggered sometimes)

I hope to figure out this alarm delay behavior, and plan to explore EUC World alarms as backup for both the V10F and 16X.

I'd suggest you to try as well. It's far from trivial but allows to define your own safety profile, like if you want 30% of margin instead of the 20% the manufacturer decided on.

Edited by supercurio
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(All the data below are collected from the log uploaded by Joshua) What cause the accdient?  After passing 50km/h with the tiltback angle of 3.9 degree, Joshua was still trying to push harde

Thank you Liam and Inmotion.  And thank you for the kind words on recovery. I'm going to lower the speed warnings and tiltback going forward.  I'm not sure how often the other brands reach put at

This is simply amazing news. I am VERY impressed with the transparency and willingness to even approach the complaint. Thank you Inmotion! So it does seem that it wasnt a glitch, rather an overlean co

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44 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Setting the maximum speed to 28 mph will help with safety at high state of charge, as long as you don't keep in the back of your mind that it's okay to go beyond because the wheel can technically go further.

At lower state of charges or with battery sag, the speed will be limited lower than 28 mph by the wheel anyway since the lower voltage of the battery reduces how fast the motor can spin, also how much current can be drawn, reducing the safety margin significantly.

Fixed speed limits can help to some extent but make no difference where the wheel reach its maximum capacity due to acceleration, uphill, bumps, wind, state of charge or a combination of all these of course. Then both the quality of feedback from the wheel and the rider's ability to perceived it matters most.

Quality of audio feedback could be better (gap?) but I feel the same as @Unventor regarding feedback from the pedals, it's very good on Inmotion wheels. I would recommend only Inmotion wheels to a deaf person for instance. From the pedal angle only you can tell which speed you're at, how much stress/sag there's on the battery, how close you're from the limit (at least on the V10F thanks to its progressive soft tiltback - which also has it's downside)

Therefore speed is only one of the parameters at play. A major one of course, but unfortunately you can't know everything that can happen by identifying precisely the speed alone.

I personally keep in mind the effort it takes to cycle where I ride my wheel. It's a good parallel to imagine the demands on a wheel based on speed/acceleration/incline/wind/aerodynamics.

For now I have good confidence on the safety of my V10F, low confidence in the my 16X safety (can get scary overleaning-like pedal dipping before or with no alarm triggered sometimes)

I hope to figure out this alarm delay behavior, and plan to explore EUC World alarms as backup for both the V10F and 16X.

I'd suggest you to try as well. It's far from trivial but allows to define your own safety profile, like if you want 30% of margin instead of the 20% the manufacturer decided on.

I am 100% with you here. I'm not going to rack on it up near the top but I don't want to fear acceleration if I need to speed up to pass 25 to get to 29 briefly. Just looking to lower the overhead strain so that if I ask it for power it will give it to me. And I get that increase cannot be balls to wall...I understand the necessity to not full throttle it up high. Thats why I am seeking to increase margin so I would really have to push it hard to overpower. 

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9 hours ago, Unventor said:

I agree with you on this. Riding an EUC is not the same as riding a MC or driving a car. As a rider one must learn how an EUC reacts and top speed means something very different than a top speed of a MC or a car. Or even an escooters for that matter. 

It is also why I don't ride to top speed on my wheels despite recently increasing setting to 50kmh on my V11. I really like the pedal feedback over the alarms function. 

But if folks want more alarms settings I can only suggest you look at all the options and dependency you have in EUC.WORLD. Have it coming from the app you can direct this into headset or BT speaker option even vibration active. 

But keep in mind that to do this on 99% of top speed, leaves you very little time to react. 

I would not ride a moped, mc or car with full throttle to speed limit either. Especial in an EUC. It take time to get a natural link to how each model and brand behaves. I think this thread is a very fine example of this. If you as an rider not to feel any risk riding top speed that is when you really need to think about how you ride. Because your natural instinct is not helping you to avoid an incident. Adding aggressive ride style to the equation just stress this evening further imo. 

With people not starting on low powered wheels anymore, the risk of learning EUC behaviour is a lot higher as the "ohh that does not work out" lesson happens at much higher speeds meaning impact forces are that much greater. 

Due to this is why I feel blessed with my incidents I had as I in general have excape with injuries that healed up (so far). 

I am at an age where I know I am not 20 years old and I mortal anymore. And I feel pain (for a long time) when things go bad. 

I am not saying everyone else are mortals. I am trying to say if you find yourself in a situation where you get to test what group you are in, chances are you might be surprised and it is too late to do anything about it. That is what I hope we don't get to read about in the news or getting a link to here. 

Respectfully, the analogy to a moped, motorcycle, or car is inappropriate imo as the reason most people don't ride at the limits is because of speed limits on public roads and poor handling at higher speeds. No one watches their speed on the above-mentioned vehicles out of fear that the vehicle will shut off on them, which is what we're talking about here.

My tiltback and alarms are set at 31mph for my 18XL and I've never had my 18XL cut off on me at due to going too fast because the tilt back is prominent enough that it forces you to slowdown. @Unventor since you have or had a 18L, can you compare the the tiltback characteristics of the two?
 

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1 minute ago, Jonesq said:

Respectfully, the analogy to a moped, motorcycle, or car is inappropriate imo as the reason most people don't ride at the limits is because of speed limits on public roads and poor handling at higher speeds. No one watches their speed on the above-mentioned vehicles out of fear that the vehicle will shut off on them, which is what we're talking about here.

My tiltback and alarms are set at 31mph for my 18XL and I've never had my 18XL cut off on me at due to going too fast because the tilt back is prominent enough that it forces you to slowdown. @Unventor since you have or had a 18L, can you compare the the tiltback characteristics of the two?
 

I've said this same thing three times...agreed. same on my KS16. I'm telling you Kingsong algorithm has to be different because I can't push through an overlean at top speed. It just pushes me back. I mean the confidence I have at top speed on it is 100%.  Battery Sag on 4P here contributes. You can see on Wrong Ways video. I don't know why we keep jumping to top speed - he caused pedal dip at 2mph. I cannot do that on my Kingsong. Even my Mten3 only slightly can I cause it at full lean. 

Not Imnotions fault - but are the differences real or was it all riding style?  

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23 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

he caused pedal dip at 2mph. I cannot do that on my Kingsong. Even my Mten3 only slightly can I cause it at full lean. 

you can do that on any wheel if you know how, it is possible even on the msp although harder, but there are videos out there.

33 minutes ago, Jonesq said:

My tiltback and alarms are set at 31mph for my 18XL and I've never had my 18XL cut off on me at due to going too fast because the tilt back is prominent enough that it forces you to slowdown.

kingsong's tiltback is harder as far as I remember if you accelerate hard.

 

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

I personally keep in mind the effort it takes to cycle where I ride my wheel. It's a good parallel to imagine the demands on a wheel based on speed/acceleration/incline/wind/aerodynamics.

this is a good way of doing it, speed is not usually a problem, hard acceleration is, so even if he puts it at 28mph, it will still be possible to overlean it if he tries it hard enough.

 

Anyway guys, im back from testing as I said yesterday, here are the things I found out:

-if you go above the limit it will horn twice(1second) and then there is a 4 second delay where no beep happens if you are still above the limit, as Liam said.

-however, if you do back off from the limit and you reach it again when the beeps already played, it will beep again. I can keep it beeping nonstop if I keep going over the limit, back off while the beep is playing and then instantly reach it again.

-no matter how fast you reach the beeps again, the sound can't overlap, so even if you record longer files, it will wait for it to complete I think.

-there is a limit how fast the tiltback comes even if you fullforce accelerate into it, I feel like it takes around a minimum of 1.5 seconds to reach full tiltback no matter how hard you do it.

-lowering, muting, or increasing the sound option does not change the beep loudness. It is around the same loudness as the V10F speaker.

-if you have the commuting mode(did not try offroad now) and you use below 50% pedal sensitivity, the limit drops from 55kmh down to 48kmh at 0% sensitivity even at 100% battery with fancier mode.

 

I think a combination of my first  and forth point is what could lead to issues if you don't back off at the beeps and accelerate too fast for the tiltback to reach it's full potential.

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Excellent test and report, thanks a lot @Ádám Szitás, it explains all aspects of the previous discussion and allows to draw conclusions on how to ride safer with this current alarm implementation.

It's unfortunate and damn unlucky that despite @EUChristian eased off the pressure as seen on the log graph at the first alarm (inverter load in brow going down), it wasn't just enough to reset the 5s timer allowing the alarm to ring again.
Maybe because despite the easing, the speed measured didn't go down?

v11-overloan-annotated.thumb.png.676a0d8cf1ec1abc1606ac8553094a90.png

So until this undesirable and dangerous 5s gap is removed, we know that is crucial to back off significantly after each alarm to avoid it and allow the alarm to ring again when needed.

Additionally, the tilt-back could deploy faster in case of dire emergency instead of being ramped up over 1.5s+

This stuff should really be documented instead of us having to reverse-engineer it, which is what's we're collectively doing right now.

Edited by supercurio
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@EUChristian I hear you. I can hear your honest concerns. You don’t sound like an idiot. ...... actually you sound like Captain Kirk having a frustrating conversation with our Mr Spock @mrelwood
 

I think this is a valuable post and both yourself and mrelwood represent our community very well. :cheers:
 

I don’t believe this is a cult. I do believe that we are at very different stages of understanding and skills. We also have very different uses for our wheels.  I think that it is important to understand that these seemingly magical devices are still in the early stages of development. Given the complexity there are many pitfalls. 

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3 hours ago, supercurio said:

 

I hope to figure out this alarm delay behavior, and plan to explore EUC World alarms as backup for both the V10F and 16X.

I'd suggest you to try as well. It's far from trivial but allows to define your own safety profile, like if you want 30% of margin instead of the 20% the manufacturer decided on.

This is the true beauty of @Sebas work. It works for different brands of wheels. It can be set up very complex. The really hard part is different brands report data different. And it can be hard to find what is considered max safe temperature, max safe amp use/spike. We have discussed this in the support team Sebastian created, where I asked him if he can maybe give suggestions to new users from the data people log. So far we are not there yet. But he is working on something as far as I know (and he is being creative from what I gather). So to tie this back to the thread, I personally think the EUC.WORLD app is probably (not made by Carlsberg, sorry being Danish I couldn't help myself) the best tool riders have right now to assist them in avoiding cutouts. But it requires a lot of understanding of your EUC model. And best of all each alarm can be set for each model/wheel individually. I really think many do not think of this. (and yes since I don't push my wheels to the limit I have not set this up yet myself either). 

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2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

@EUChristian I hear you. I can hear your honest concerns. You don’t sound like an idiot. ...... actually you sound like Captain Kirk having a frustrating conversation with our Mr Spock @mrelwood
 

I think this is a valuable post and both yourself and mrelwood represent our community very well. :cheers:
 

I don’t believe this is a cult. I do believe that we are at very different stages of understanding and skills. We also have very different uses for our wheels.  I think that it is important to understand that these seemingly magical devices are still in the early stages of development. Given the complexity there are many pitfalls. 

I appreciate the post thank you. Most people buying these aren't on the forum and do not understand how these things work fully. I only half understood and I get it now. 

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3 hours ago, Ádám Szitás said:

you can do that on any wheel if you know how, it is possible even on the msp although harder, but there are videos out there

Sir I agree and thank you for breaking this down!  One clarification: I know I could make it happen on any wheel but I would have to be trying really hard to overlean on my 16s. Not so much here. 

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So i got my V11 2 days ago, yesterday was out riding and watching the speed, around 50 the alert is really difficult to hear due to wind noise, it's kinda low volume actually to me it sounds much less than the GW beeps and on top of that I barely felt the tiltback which made me feel a bit uneasy as I knew I was hitting 52kmh without the fancy mode (galaxy watch + euc world).

So today I did some tests, I set max speed to varying degrees between 15-25kmh and with those max speeds the tiltaback was very noticeable and effective, first you get the alert then a bit later it starts to gradually tilt you back, if you keep pushing it the tiltback gets bigger and bigger but testing at 45-50kmh max speed the tiltback is very difficult to feel and I have yet to figure out why.

To summarize from the testing I did with max speed of 50 it can be difficult to hear the alarm and feel the tiltback, I sent some logs to Inmotion to analyze and I will also do more tests, I will record logs with EUC World and analyze if there is a difference in tilt amount between 20kmh, 30kmh, 40kmh and 50kmh max speed setting.

Edited by Rawnei
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16 hours ago, EUChristian said:

Sir I agree and thank you for breaking this down!  One clarification: I know I could make it happen on any wheel but I would have to be trying really hard to overlean on my 16s. Not so much here. 

Exactly. Physical feedback is important. I don't think creeping tilt back to 4 degrees is enough.

3 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So i got my V11 2 days ago, yesterday was out riding and watching the speed, around 50 the alert is really difficult to hear due to wind noise, it's kinda low volume actually to me it sounds much less than the GW beeps and on top of that I barely felt the tiltback which made me feel a bit uneasy as I knew I was hitting 52kmh without the fancy mode (galaxy watch + euc world).

So today I did some tests, I set max speed to varying degrees between 15-25kmh and with those max speeds the tiltaback was very noticeable and effective, first you get the alert then a bit later it starts to gradually tilt you back, if you keep pushing it the tiltback gets bigger and bigger but testing at 45-50kmh max speed the tiltback is very difficult to feel and I have yet to figure out why.

To summarize from the testing I did with max speed of 50 it can be difficult to hear the alarm and feel the tiltback, I sent some logs to Inmotion to analyze and I will also do more tests, I will record logs with EUC World and analyze if there is a difference in tilt amount between 20kmh, 30kmh, 40kmh and 50kmh max speed setting.

This will be very interesting to follow! It is not fun to freeze up towards the top speed wondering whether the safety mechanism will feel safe enough! I felt the same way on my 16X.

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Yesterday I rode my V10F twice and tried to identify if I would hit the 5s forced delay between alarms.
I was going somewhere and back. That were real rides for transportation purposes.

Well, it's worse than I though: I realized that since I have the wheel I hit this alarm delay conditions pretty much every ride!

On my way there I noticed the delay in these conditions:

  1. Acceleration in a slight incline
  2. When reaching higher speed, an alarm rang
  3. I stop accelerating then, below max speed
  4. Since I stopped accelerating and I'm not at max speed: no tilt-back
  5. I did not brake either: alarm stopped, no tilt-back, road now flat: no need to brake
  6. Then a few seconds later, out of the blue an alarm rings. I'm not accelerating: steady speed, no bump, no wind, not at max speed, no tilt-back. How comes?

There I realized that I was beyond the capacity of the wheel the whole time, but it could not alert me. By how much? Don't know.
Turns out these conditions were defeating both the tilt-back and alarms, but since the alarm rang later on it means the conditions were met.

It happened twice during this 10km ride, I was really not trying to make it happen.
Also:

  1. Hit bumpy asphalt at 85% of max speed
  2. Alarm rings
  3. No alarm rings on next bump following which was a bit harder, why?

On my way back I tried to find a real-world testing method to reproduce consistently alarm gap conditions, here's what I found:

  1. Ride a few kph below current max speed, like 3km/h. Around 34km/h GPS. No hard tilt-back, no significant soft tilt-back.
  2. Moderate and brief stomp on the front of the pedals (similar to ankle flick)
  3. Alarm rings instantly
  4. Since there was no weight transfer, the power demand was transient and immediately compounded: steady speed
  5. Since there is no acceleration nor deceleration, the alarm gap is not reset.
  6. I stomp on the pedals the same every 1s, no alarm
  7. After a few seconds, next identical stomp now triggers the alarm again

More observations:

Following @Ádám Szitás test I assumed that stopping to accelerate would be enough to reset the alarm gap, but it does not. In all my tests actually I didn't manage to reset it, so maybe it's necessary to actually brake to reset the timer and allow the alarm to be honked again.

What can go wrong:

There's so many scenarios where this can go wrong, some examples:

  • You hit a bump it triggers the alarm
  • You don't decelerate (no need, it was just one bump)
  • Now you want to accelerate for some reason, like there's a car behind you or you want to keep up with another rider in a group ride
  • During the next 5 second you'll get no feedback from the wheel and can overlean it completely blind.
  • Tiltback is too slow to deploy to catch your acceleration

 

  • You accelerate the wheel near its absolute max speed
  • An alarm ring so you back off immediately
  • Since your purpose was to accelerate to a defined speed, you don't brake either.
  • Since you stopped accelerating, remain slightly below max speed, no tilt-back was deployed
  • During the next 5s riding at max speed, the wheel can't alert you. If you accelerate or the road becomes inclined, you can overlean and crash without warning.

 

  • You accelerate the wheel strongly near 70% of max speed
  • An alarm, triggered by power demand and battery voltage sag rings
  • You stop accelerating immediately, no tiltback, alarm stops
  • You realize that you're well below max speed, want to increase speed some more
  • The alarm is defeated during 5 seconds and can't alert you when you reached max speed as you had the reasonable expectation of
  • Crash
  • Unfortunately this one is not theoretical: it happened to @EUChristian

Conclusions:

Well it's bad, I consider my V10F alarms broken now.
V11 behavior seem very similar or identical: unsure about other Inmotion models.

By analyzing the alert behavior it appears that it is affected by a critical safety flaw covering a whole range of real-world usage scenarios.
More significantlythe alarm flaw conditions are not limited to aggressive unlike described earlier.

Due to the large variety of ways to trigger the alarm gap, it is likely that this flaw led to multiple unexplained crashes for the past few years and will continue doing so until addressed.

I don't have an explanation why Inmotion designed its alarm system enforcing a 5s gap between alarms: unless the timer is reset by braking sufficiently.
I'm very surprised that it was not identified before, and very much hope that @Inmotion Global will address the issue now.

This error happened either when modeling the desired alarm behavior, writing the specifications or during implementation, and affects at least the V10/V10F models and V11.

I have no doubt that it can be fixed, and look forward to Liam @Inmotion Global reply on this.
In the meantime I lost a lot of trust and confidence in my V10F.

While I'm disappointed now, I'm also hopeful and enthusiastic that improvements can be made with positive results on most Inmotion riders's safety.

Edited by supercurio
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Yes, what you say is true, I had the same results. I like to think of the horns as a redundant safety warning but not the major safety feature, that is the tiltback. I sure wouldn't want to listen to it every second though, maybe this was their idea as well?

I remember I read a lot of complaints about the sudden tiltback so maybe thats why they made it slower? I Think it is still a bad idea to accelerate aggressively at max speed, which is the only scenario the slower tiltback could cause problems, which is still easy to feel even at the start. (at least for me)

What I'm still interested in is how the V11 handles hard incline/acceleration warnings (so overpower, not speed), did not try yet.

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So I did some controlled tilt-back tests with different max speed set for the V11 on a flat speedway track nearby and logged everything with EUC World, here are the results.

 

20kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_20kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.afe6a9d86a37190aeca19ca2b54cab44.png

 

30kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_30kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.624fe85ce888fd54f76ebd4dbffb0090.png

 

40kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_40kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.3f98e753822707af93f114e8320a1326.png

 

50kmh Test 1:

V11_Tiltback_at_50kmh_Max_Speed_1.thumb.png.090a18afaaff244c5b551e3ba6fffe04.png

 

50kmh Test 2:

V11_Tiltback_at_50kmh_Max_Speed_2.thumb.png.704b5125d9952a0c2a28b915bbcc887f.png

 

 

As you can see the tilt-back curve for 20-40kmh is much sharper while for 50kmh it's a slow decline that starts even before max speed is reached.

 

For me personal this different behavior coupled with the alert being drowned out by wind noise makes it sometimes difficult to notice the max speed limit being hit.

 

Possible room for improvement from Inmotion (IMO) would be to make the 50kmh tilt-back a bit more sharp like the other max speeds and making the alert volume louder.

 

Edited by Rawnei
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4 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Yes, what you say is true, I had the same results. I like to think of the horns as a redundant safety warning but not the major safety feature, that is the tiltback. I sure wouldn't want to listen to it every second though, maybe this was their idea as well?

I remember I read a lot of complaints about the sudden tiltback so maybe thats why they made it slower? I Think it is still a bad idea to accelerate aggressively at max speed, which is the only scenario the slower tiltback could cause problems, which is still easy to feel even at the start. (at least for me)

What I'm still interested in is how the V11 handles hard incline/acceleration warnings (so overpower, not speed), did not try yet.

I think you're right, Inmotion's safety warning seem to rely more on the tiltback, with the audio alarm being more like an early notice.
I've learned to ride on this V10F and being trained on this system, it kept me safe so far.

However there's this condition where the tilt-back does not get triggered yet the alarm would still ring if it could - and does once the delay expires.
Does it mean that the wheel is in audio alarm zone but not yet in tilt-back zone? Or that tilt-back was also defeated by another undocumented delay.

Added to this, sometimes a gentle tilt-back alert feels the same as the negative tilt you get as braking aid, so you can mistake the warning tiltback for "okay I'm already braking now"
With bumps and change of inclines, with diverse message communicated via the pedals but expressed the same way things end up unclear.

Please be safe in your next trial attempts 👍

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3 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So I did some controlled tilt-back tests with different max speed set for the V11 on a flat speedway track nearby and logged everything with EUC World, here are the results.

 

20kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_20kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.2a8a2164b307d9d66427f8633803fab3.png

30kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_30kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.60485bf6fbf24e2da661f1bfdb3c030f.png

40kmh:

V11_Tiltback_at_40kmh_Max_Speed.thumb.png.d7e8c24a8ff40ffc3a6b8354cce776e5.png

50kmh Test 1:

V11_Tiltback_at_50kmh_Max_Speed_1.thumb.png.6364f89850fc1922382651602ef24031.png

50kmh Test 2:

V11_Tiltback_at_50kmh_Max_Speed_2.thumb.png.f52bfc72226287a55263d62013575c8e.png

 

As you can see the tilt-back curve for 20-40kmh is much sharper while for 50kmh it's a slow decline that starts even before max speed is reached.

 

For me personal this different behavior coupled with the alert being drowned out by wind noise makes it sometimes difficult to notice the max speed limit being hit.

 

Possible room for improvement from Inmotion (IMO) would be to make the 50kmh tilt-back a bit more sharp like the other max speeds and making the alert volume louder.

 

From looking at the graph (math would tell better), the tilt-back angle appear to be mostly proportional to the % of speed over the limit, which seems logical.

However there's certainly a case to make for stronger tilt-back close to the wheel's max speed versus lower user-selected speed limit for two reasons:

  • Close to the wheel speed limit, 10% over max speed means 5kph. At 20kph speed limit, it's only 2kph
  • Close to the speed limit, 10% - 5kph higher might mean overlean crash. At 20kph speed limit there's no danger.
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How could you mistake tiltback to braking assist?? You clearly know if you are accelerating or decelerating, I can't understand how would you not. I highly doubt there would be anything that defeats tiltback and I never experienced it either.

Nice graph, Rawnei. I knew it the max tiltback has to be 10 degree, I guessed right :). Seems like you are right about the tiltback being less at high speeds, I don't know why that is needed and I would like it to behave the same way at all speeds, if nothing else, for consistency and reliability.

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2 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

How could you mistake tiltback to braking assist?? You clearly know if you are accelerating or decelerating, I can't understand how would you not. I highly doubt there would be anything that defeats tiltback and I never experienced it either.

It happens to me sometimes to me when gaining speed inadvertently when transitioning from flat to a descent.

After the initial audio alarm and with the change of incline, essentially I can't tell if I'm already braking enough or if it's the tilt-back telling me to brake more.

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59 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

So I did some controlled tilt-back tests with different max speed set for the V11 on a flat speedway track nearby and logged everything with EUC World, here are the results.

I'm missing time units on the charts.

And is there any chance that the tilt-back at high speed is slower because you are accelerating slower? If the horizontal axis has the same scale on all charts, then the rate of acceleration at low speed is higher than at high speed, and this could also be a cause for the slower tilt-back. This goes in with my experience with Inmotion V10, where the tilt-back growth is proportional to how much I'm pushing it. And if I cruise and just slowly reach the top speed, the tiltback comes slowly as well.

 

51 minutes ago, supercurio said:

From looking at the graph (math would tell better), the tilt-back angle appear to be mostly proportional to the % of speed over the limit, which seems logical.

However there's certainly a case to make for stronger tilt-back close to the wheel's max speed versus lower user-selected speed limit for two reasons:

  • Close to the wheel speed limit, 10% over max speed means 5kph. At 20kph speed limit, it's only 2kph
  • Close to the speed limit, 10% - 5kph higher might mean overlean crash. At 20kph speed limit there's no danger.

I definitely don't see a 10 deg. tilt-back at 22 km/h. To me, it looks like the max tilt-back happens at 4 or 5 km/h above the limit, no matter the speed.

Edited by Zopper
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25 minutes ago, supercurio said:

It happens to me sometimes to me when gaining speed inadvertently when transitioning from flat to a descent.

After the initial audio alarm and with the change of incline, essentially I can't tell if I'm already braking enough or if it's the tilt-back telling me to brake more.

You are probably going too fast man. I'd say there is no room for improvement for this wheels software or hardware. You probably don't understand EUCs very well and thats why you don't understand that they build them this way on purpose and thats the way this industry is. The more you question the more I see how little you grasp how these things work!

Kidding sir - Happy Thanksgiving!  Thanks for digging in here. Looks like 3000 ft up in my opinion the inmotion safety system is better suited to slower wheels. As you get into the 26+mph range you are working on slim margins.  I think the Gotway/Kingsong beep/tiltback method is better suited to these speeds, just an opinion. Or if not the tiltback has to be more powerful so you can't accidentally power through it. This is their first high speed wheel so its a learning experience. 

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10 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

You are probably going too fast man. I'd say there is no room for improvement for this wheels software or hardware. You probably don't understand EUCs very well and thats why you don't understand that they build them this way on purpose and thats the way this industry is. The more you question the more I see how little you grasp how these things work!

Kidding sir - Happy Thanksgiving!  Thanks for digging in here. Looks like 3000 ft up in my opinion the inmotion safety system is better suited to slower wheels. As you get into the 26+mph range you are working on slim margins.  I think the Gotway/Kingsong beep/tiltback method is better suited to these speeds, just an opinion. Or if not the tiltback has to be more powerful so you can't accidentally power through it. This is their first high speed wheel so its a learning experience. 

Haha you got me for a second 😂

Good point, the V10F feels very solid at its paltry 40 km/h max speed for my 62kg weight. In the real world the alarm at 38 kph GPS or usually lower. Safety margin is higher than 16X for instance.
For the V11 speed, standard then fancy mode, the same safety system is already not good enough: too many corner cases.

Inmotion is preparing a high speed 100V wheel so it's time to have this discussion, for sure.

Edited by supercurio
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41 minutes ago, supercurio said:

It happens to me sometimes to me when gaining speed inadvertently when transitioning from flat to a descent.

After the initial audio alarm and with the change of incline, essentially I can't tell if I'm already braking enough or if it's the tilt-back telling me to brake more.

Well, when that uncertainty happens to me, I brake harder until I know I certainly dropped at least a few km/h. And either I feel the tilt-back disappear (and then it was real, but now I'm bellow it), or the feeling stays and then it wasn't tilt-back. If I hear an alarm, I slow down a lot.

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1 minute ago, Zopper said:

Well, when that uncertainty happens to me, I brake harder until I know I certainly dropped at least a few km/h. And either I feel the tilt-back disappear (and then it was real, but now I'm bellow it), or the feeling stays and then it wasn't tilt-back. If I hear an alarm, I slow down a lot.

Likewise in this specific scenario.
Then when looking at the recording on EUC World it can end up with 42km/h (wheel) max speed still.
Since the feedback is unclear: not taking chances.

I don't slow down a lot every time I hear an alarm however. In this case with the tilt-back as well: yes.

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