Thinking of upgrading from an 18XL to a GW, but which one? Nikola or MSP?

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Ben Hatfield said:

I really wish I had known a lot of this before upgrading from my 18XL to the MSP (in my case the speed).  I was expecting more range, and was pretty surprised I got less range on the MSP.  I had never ridden a gotway wheel and the transition has been challenging from a comfort pov.  I've found some leverage padding on the MSP to be a necessity, while it was just super useful on the 18XL.  I also damaged my MSP on it's first crash, and had to get it repaired, where as my 18XL has taken larger hits and still runs flawlessly (though I admit that might just be the luck/bad luck).

I love a challenge, and will figure out my MSP - what it is, and how it will be best for me.  It's 100v power is super impressive.  It has enough torque for me, but it does overheat much faster than my 18XL on very steep inclines moving slow.

As far as range, I think the only un-modded gotway wheel that will have more range than the top KS wheels is the Monster 2400wh 84v

I'm really surprised by this. I found that the 1800wh MSP gets about the same range as my 1600wh XL. So yeah, on a wh/mile basis the MSP has a worse range, but that's compensated for by the bigger battery.

Have you quantified your statement or are you saying they don't have the same range based on a "gut feel"?

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm really surprised by this. I found that the 1800wh MSP gets about the same range as my 1600wh XL. So yeah, on a wh/mile basis the MSP has a worse range, but that's compensated for by the bigger battery.

Have you quantified your statement or are you saying they don't have the same range based on a "gut feel"?

really? i wonder if its my ride style, or i just unconsciously ride GW wheels harder.. but theyve always had horrendous range for me, as i said with my 2100 wh nikola which pushing it as far as i could in the range test, only got 105 km... that was my first time ever being on it so i was by no means pushing it hard.. at least, i dont think i was haha

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rywokast said:

really? i wonder if its my ride style, or i just unconsciously ride GW wheels harder.. but theyve always had horrendous range for me, as i said with my 2100 wh nikola which pushing it as far as i could in the range test, only got 105 km... that was my first time ever being on it so i was by no means pushing it hard.. at least, i dont think i was haha

Wow. That's really poor range. I got a bit over 50-miles on my 1600wh Nikola and over 60-miles on my 1800wh MSP.

When I did the range test on the 100-volt 1845wh Nikola I got 64-miles (battery at literally 0%). So that value is consistent with what I get from my 1800wh MSP.

Could be a difference in weight.

But what I'm really focusing on is the difference between KingSong and Gotway. Of course KingSong doesn't make a wheel with more than 1600wh of battery capacity and I can get 60-miles out of those wheels.

Can't deny your experience. I'll continue to tell people that Gotway gets less than KingSong but only because KingSong allows the wheels to run at a lower voltage. This is from my experience. YMMV, as it does 

[Ben Hatfield]

2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

really? i wonder if its my ride style, or i just unconsciously ride GW wheels harder.. but theyve always had horrendous range for me, as i said with my 2100 wh nikola which pushing it as far as i could in the range test, only got 105 km... that was my first time ever being on it so i was by no means pushing it hard.. at least, i dont think i was haha

If averaging 15-20 mph - my MSP speed is a 45 mile wheel with the battery left below 20% (at rest) and a riding low of less than 10%.  I have tracked this several times.  In fact I did a ride averaging over 20mph (just over, but obviously a lot of my riding was much faster than that to maintain that average) and the range (20% battery at rest) dropped below 40 miles.  I'm guessing I could eek out a few more miles on all of these rides by riding careful at the battery below 20% - But there is no way I'd get my MSP speed to go 60 miles unless I averaged like 5-8mph - but that is an educated guess, fully admit.

I'm very surprised by this, and watched a lot of MSP torque range tests on YT (including yours).  Either this is specific to the MSP speed I have, or the MSP speed has less range than the torque, which again, surprises me.  I'd like other owners of the speed version to confirm or deny my findings.

I emailed eWheels about this, and Zen got back to me and said his 100v Nik+ is about the same as my speed when he rides it fast.

But yea, this isn't a guess - my MSP speed gets far less range than my 18XL when riding consistently around 20mph on either.

 

Edit: managed to quote the wrong post! - I was responding to Marty's comment

Edited June 29, 2020 by Ben Hatfield

[Rywokast]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow. That's really poor range. I got a bit over 50-miles on my 1600wh Nikola and over 60-miles on my 1800wh MSP.

When I did the range test on the 100-volt 1845wh Nikola I got 64-miles (battery at literally 0%). So that value is consistent with what I get from my 1800wh MSP.

Could be a difference in weight.

But what I'm really focusing on is the difference between KingSong and Gotway. Of course KingSong doesn't make a wheel with more than 1600wh of battery capacity and I can get 60-miles out of those wheels.

Can't deny your experience. I'll continue to tell people that Gotway gets less than KingSong but only because KingSong allows the wheels to run at a lower voltage. This is from my experience. YMMV, as it does 

yea i know its very unusual i must unconsciously ride them harder haha.. its definitely not my weight of 120 lbs xD i reeeeeeeeeeeeeally wish kingsong would branch out more like gotway

[mrelwood]

One aspect that affects the range a lot is when the rider decides to calls it quits. Some people make it crawl until the battery stays at 0%, some people give up when they can no longer accelerate hard at 25mph. Since the throttling behaviour on KS and GW wheels are pretty much the opposites, this can easily cause vastly different range results.

[Rywokast]

33 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

One aspect that affects the range a lot is when the rider decides to calls it quits. Some people make it crawl until the battery stays at 0%, some people give up when they can no longer accelerate hard at 25mph. Since the throttling behaviour on KS and GW wheels are pretty much the opposites, this can easily cause vastly different range results.

true.. i dont ever like to ride any wheel at below 10% standing at the very least.. generally i will call 25% quits

edit: the nikola never once beeped or throttled me down to 10% standing... found that odd as well but could be a contributing factor

Edited June 29, 2020 by Rywokast

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

If averaging 15-20 mph - my MSP speed is a 45 mile wheel with the battery left below 20% (at rest) and a riding low of less than 10%.  I have tracked this several times.  In fact I did a ride averaging over 20mph (just over, but obviously a lot of my riding was much faster than that to maintain that average) and the range (20% battery at rest) dropped below 40 miles.  I'm guessing I could eek out a few more miles on all of these rides by riding careful at the battery below 20% - But there is no way I'd get my MSP speed to go 60 miles unless I averaged like 5-8mph - but that is an educated guess, fully admit.

I'm very surprised by this, and watched a lot of MSP torque range tests on YT (including yours).  Either this is specific to the MSP speed I have, or the MSP speed has less range than the torque, which again, surprises me.  I'd like other owners of the speed version to confirm or deny my findings.

I emailed eWheels about this, and Zen got back to me and said his 100v Nik+ is about the same as my speed when he rides it fast.

But yea, this isn't a guess - my MSP speed gets far less range than my 18XL when riding consistently around 20mph on either.

 

Edit: managed to quote the wrong post! - I was responding to Marty's comment

You're leaving a lot of miles on the table by stopping at 20%. Gotway wheels are fully rideable down to 15% and still not horrible until ~10%.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

true.. i dont ever like to ride any wheel at below 10% standing at the very least.. generally i will call 25% quits

edit: the nikola never once beeped or throttled me down to 10% standing... found that odd as well but could be a contributing factor

 

3 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

If averaging 15-20 mph - my MSP speed is a 45 mile wheel with the battery left below 20% (at rest) and a riding low of less than 10%.  I have tracked this several times.  In fact I did a ride averaging over 20mph (just over, but obviously a lot of my riding was much faster than that to maintain that average) and the range (20% battery at rest) dropped below 40 miles.  I'm guessing I could eek out a few more miles on all of these rides by riding careful at the battery below 20% - But there is no way I'd get my MSP speed to go 60 miles unless I averaged like 5-8mph - but that is an educated guess, fully admit.

I'm very surprised by this, and watched a lot of MSP torque range tests on YT (including yours).  Either this is specific to the MSP speed I have, or the MSP speed has less range than the torque, which again, surprises me.  I'd like other owners of the speed version to confirm or deny my findings.

I emailed eWheels about this, and Zen got back to me and said his 100v Nik+ is about the same as my speed when he rides it fast.

But yea, this isn't a guess - my MSP speed gets far less range than my 18XL when riding consistently around 20mph on either.

 

Edit: managed to quote the wrong post! - I was responding to Marty's comment

 

BTW, curious if you guys are using EUC World by chance. If you are, are you aware that by default it adds a 15% dummy-proof margin (my words) to the battery level. So if the app says you only have 20% remaining, in reality you have 35% remaining. You can turn off this dummy margin in the app.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Ben Hatfield]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

 

 

BTW, curious if you guys are using EUC World by chance. If you are, are you aware that by default it adds a 15% dummy-proof margin (my words) to the battery level. So if the app says you only have 20% remaining, in reality you have 35% remaining. You can turn off this dummy margin in the app.

All good information!  I generally ride the MSP until I hit single digits (battery %) while riding, which then reports around 20% at rest.  I did not know about the buffer in EUC world, which is the app I use.  What setting is that?

I'm away from home for the next week, but when I get back, I'll start some range tests with this new information, and see how that translates.

Appreciate the info from an experienced rider!

I'm still a pretty new rider:  4 months - around 1500 total miles on my three wheels, but only around 300 on the MSP speed, so I really have a long ways to go in terms of getting to know that wheel.  I have a long ways to go with EUC's, generally speaking

[Rywokast]

11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

BTW, curious if you guys are using EUC World by chance. If you are, are you aware that by default it adds a 15% dummy-proof margin (my words) to the battery level. So if the app says you only have 20% remaining, in reality you have 35% remaining. You can turn off this dummy margin in the app.

i have used it very occasionally though i generally do not use any apps when riding i just know approx how long i can ride for on each wheel.. but when doing the range test i have only gone by the official app.. i didnt know about this function on euc world... what is the purpose of that? lol 

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, Rywokast said:

i have used it very occasionally though i generally do not use any apps when riding i just know approx how long i can ride for on each wheel.. but when doing the range test i have only gone by the official app.. i didnt know about this function on euc world... what is the purpose of that? lol 

I've argued with @Seba quite a bit about this. He believes in adding an invisible safety buffer so people won't run out of juice by accident. I hate this. Sure, you can turn it off, but everybody I've seen who uses EUC World is fully unaware of this default behavior.

EUC World should not have this "feature" enabled by default. If nothing else that would save me endless time in fixing peoples EUC World configurations on long group rides when they start panicking that they are running out of power.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

All good information!  I generally ride the MSP until I hit single digits (battery %) while riding, which then reports around 20% at rest.  I did not know about the buffer in EUC world, which is the app I use.  What setting is that?

I'm away from home for the next week, but when I get back, I'll start some range tests with this new information, and see how that translates.

Appreciate the info from an experienced rider!

I'm still a pretty new rider:  4 months - around 1500 total miles on my three wheels, but only around 300 on the MSP speed, so I really have a long ways to go in terms of getting to know that wheel.  I have a long ways to go with EUC's, generally speaking

See the App Configurations screen, under the top "General settings" menu. Scroll to near the bottom and click on the "Battery level" menu. Select Standard instead of Optimized. Boom! You've just gained 15% battery capacity 

I hope this means that your MSP no longer has horrible range and you can stop promulgating that negative image 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Ben Hatfield]

29 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

See the App Configurations screen, under the top "General settings" menu. Scroll to near the bottom and click on the "Battery level" menu. Select Standard instead of Optimized. Boom! You've just gained 15% battery capacity 

I hope this means that your MSP no longer has horrible range and you can stop promulgating that negative image 

thanks again

I had no idea I was promoting or making widely known a MSP negative image - I thought I was giving my take on the wheel.  with this new information I will again put my wheel through it's paces

[Rywokast]

38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I've argued with @Seba quite a bit about this. He believes in adding an invisible safety buffer so people won't run out of juice by accident. I hate this. Sure, you can turn it off, but everybody I've seen who uses EUC World is fully unaware of this default behavior.

EUC World should not have this "feature" enabled by default. If nothing else that would same me endless time in fixing peoples EUC World configurations on long group rides when they start panicking that they are running out of power.

damn, thats weird as hell why that would be the default.... i mean, if youre using an app at all then how do you run out of juice by accident.. and if youre aware of this function existing, then its as if it doesnt exist because you will know that it is actually 15% higher.. so i suppose his thinking was that you wouldnt know this function existed, therefore you get a safety buffer... when in reality, you would just think something is wrong with the app or your wheel and first check another app lmao..... i remember like a week ago someone had this exact question on facebook about why the euc world app was saying something different and everyone was commenting on maybe the voltage in the app is set different try this try that blah blah blah no one to my knowledge knew of this function lmao, seems pretty useless if you ask me, in fact.. less than useless

[Rafal]

That is the reason why I am not using EUC World. I found that battery level is strange. Wheellog is all I need and battery level is very accurate.

[ir_fuel]

I understand the use, but when you start it up for the first time it should simply propose it as "opt in", and if you don't want it you just tap "no" and that's the end of that.

Wasn't aware of this either @Marty Backe.

[Chriull]

55 minutes ago, Rafal said:

That is the reason why I am not using EUC World. I found that battery level is strange.

As marty described this behaviour can be set to "standard".

55 minutes ago, Rafal said:

Wheellog is all I need and battery level is very accurate.

Imho some kind of showing "optimized" charge % already started with wheellog - but there it is not the default setting (?after some discussions?).

And for GW wheelog provides everything - if other extra functionality of euc world is not needed/wanted.

[Tazarinho]

On 6/27/2020 at 6:34 PM, travsformation said:

have found myself cruising quite often at 40-45 km/h on the 16X (extra caution/defensive riding being applied, don't fancy an overconfidence-induced faceplant). I'm not a speed demon by any means, and personally, find that 50 km/h is more than enough for an EUC, but a) I wouldn't mind having a bit more of a safety buffer when riding at 45 km/h

Oh, how often I have seen (and written) this line, just with different values! Funnily enough the values always seem to go up in the end, and sometimes quite rapidly as well (months).
Get a faster wheel, with a higher margin, and in 6 months you'll be writing the same thing, but adding 5-10 km/h on all counts. Of course you still won't be a speed demon, the speed demon is never oneself, but always the ones going faster! 

Personally I'm still very happy with my 16X, probably because I'm a little further down the road still and my values are about 10 km/h lower than yours. I personally prefer off-roading, but can occasionally really enjoy a long smooth cruise as well, especially if my feet, thighs and calves are still sore from the off-roads. More range would be nice, as currently I'm kind of limited to around 180-200 km/day on long trips, because of charging breaks. It also means I have to plan to end up in a larger village/town every  60/70 km or so.

Currently the only two wheels that could tempt me to be added to the stable are the MSP and the Sherman.

MSP: because I feel it could do everything that my 16X can and possibly a bit more, but with a much higher safety margin and possibly slightly more range. Though it would be a lot less comfortable. The thought of doing 100+ km on those pedals makes me cringe, and I've only ridden one for a few minutes.
On a side note, if I could fork out a little extra, it could be ordered from EcoDrift with their waterproofing, and be my all weather wheel.

Sherman: Don't like the looks at all, but still prefer it to the Monster and it seems to be a lot more nimble. But the sole reason is of course the 3200 Wh battery! This would be my cruiser for long trips. If I wanted to visit my parents in the South of France, and hop over the Pyrenées to visit Barcelona, this would be the wheel I choose.

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Ben Hatfield said:

thanks again

I had no idea I was promoting or making widely known a MSP negative image - I thought I was giving my take on the wheel.  with this new information I will again put my wheel through it's paces

Please note my emoticon in the post. I was only teasing you regarding the "negative image". I meant no harm.

[travsformation]

Wow, what a ton of extremely valuable info, thanks guys!!! 

Am overloaded with work today but will try to find the time soon to write up a proper reply. In the meantime, thanks once again! 

[Slashebeest]

1 hour ago, travsformation said:

Wow, what a ton of extremely valuable info, thanks guys!!! 

Am overloaded with work today but will try to find the time soon to write up a proper reply. In the meantime, thanks once again! 

indeed, lots of info 

Although I promised myself not to buy an euc this year, just like you, I want an 18" with a bit more margin than my 16x.

[Seba]

On 6/29/2020 at 8:47 AM, Marty Backe said:

I've argued with @Seba quite a bit about this. He believes in adding an invisible safety buffer so people won't run out of juice by accident. I hate this. Sure, you can turn it off, but everybody I've seen who uses EUC World is fully unaware of this default behavior.

EUC World should not have this "feature" enabled by default. If nothing else that would save me endless time in fixing peoples EUC World configurations on long group rides when they start panicking that they are running out of power.

Please take a look at this tour recording - https://euc.world/tour/588129920730351 - it's the last day of my 2051 km cross-country trip I've finished yesterday. At this day I completely depleted my KS-18XL battery. Please take a closer look at the end of battery level and voltage graphs.

At 142.8 km distance I reached 0 % of battery level (I use default, optimized battery level algorithm). At this point wheel speed throttling limit was just 29 km/h (18 mph). Knowing that I'm running out of battery, I was riding very conservatively with average speed below 20 km/h. Soon after reaching 0 %, EUC started to continuously beep three times to indicate low battery condition. Just five kilometers later, at 147 km of distance, battery voltage dropped to 60 V and my EUC declined to ride and tilted back 45 degrees. That was end of my ride. From 0 % I had only 5 km of remaining distance reserve (for ~1600 Wh battery).

This is how optimized battery level algorithm is intended to work. It says that you have 0 % battery left when you have a very small margin of available distance left and throttling starts to limit your speed to a level that is unacceptable, especially if you're going for a group ride with guys riding 30 km/h+. I know that many EUC users got used to unreliable battery level indications, saying that you still have 10 % battery left when your wheel tilts back on every acceleration. For me, it's unacceptable to have 5 - 10 % of battery level available when my wheel is effectively unrideable. I expect it to work in a way a car fuel gauge works - when indication drops to zero, I know that I have some small and unknown distance reserve before engine will start to stall and finally stop. EUC World default settings are meant for novice users. Novice users usually don't know how to map app percents to EUC remaining range. They expect that their wheel will be usable down to 0 %. More advanced users may switch to standard algo that matches OEM algo or even create own by defining custom battery levels.

Of course, I was able to fine tune optimized algorithm for King Song wheels. I constantly get very positive feedback from other KS users assuring me that making this algo a default one was a good move. But maybe math I assumed for Gotways isn't working as good, as I don't have a GW wheel I could work with for a longer time. Maybe optimized algo is too conservative in case of GW wheels and should be fine tuned also. It's very probable. I will however get GW wheel within few days so I'll be able to verify and improve optimized battery level algorithm in Gotway wheels so it will work in a way it works for my KS-18XL. Of course, I'm also open for some user input with suggestion how to tune this algo: at what battery levels GW wheel starts to throttling and to what speed etc.

 

On 6/29/2020 at 8:49 AM, Marty Backe said:

You've just gained 15% battery capacity 

No, the only thing you gained is an illusion that you have 15 % battery more

Edited July 5, 2020 by Seba

[travsformation]

So, where to start...The response to my question has been amazing, thank you all so much! Also interesting to see I’m not the only one with this same (and very tough) dilemma!

I’ve been going back and forth about this dilemma, often telling myself that an 18XL with a 3” tire would be enough for my needs, that being limited to 50 km/h might be a good thing, because anything above that is just asking to hurt one’s self in my (subjective) opinion. But having said that…now that I avoid bike lanes like the plague and ride in traffic, there are plenty of scenarios, on a daily basis, where’d I’d like to speed up to not be overtaken, or keep up with traffic or whatnot, so the upgrade isn't about being able to ride above 50 km/h (although it might, very occasionally, come in handy), or even riding at 50 km/h, since 45 km/h is just about the max. cruising speed I'm comfortable at. It's about having more peace of mind and getting rid of that fear that accelerating when above 45 km/h might lead to a faceplant, or that mid-acceleration, surrounded by cars, I might be surprised with a sudden KS tiltback-of-death™, which is an unnerving (and distracting) feeling to constantly have in the back of your mind when you're trying to focus on your surroundings and safely navigate through traffic.

I always ride with a FF helmet and in-helmet headset, so in terms of not pushing the speed, I reckon EUC World and a 45 km/h pre-alarm (as a reminder that I'm at my max. cruising speed), a 50 km/h medium-priority alarm (as in “dude, you’ve hit 50 kmh, be freakin' careful) and a high-priority 54 km/h alarm (as in “don’t exceed this speed!) is enough for me.

So with that in mind, I think I'm going to have to graduate to Gotway.

As to the Nikola vs MSP dilema....I’m not going to quote everyone because it would be a several-hour endeavor (but special shout-out to @Mike Sacristan for your fantastic, lengthy point-by-point post!), so I’ll try to condense the feedback you’ve provided:

Maneuverability: MSP (3 votes) vs Nikola (1 vote). The MSP is maneuverable than the 18XL according to @Scottie

Shell durability: Nikola, hands down. But shells can be replaced, and unless I have a high-speed crash (particularly one involving a nose-dive by the wheel), I reckon the MSP should be just fine.

High-speed stability: MSP (more planted, doesn’t jump and skip like the 16X or, to a lesser extent, the Nikola)

Torque: both should be more than OK, especially considering I'm using the 16X with no pads.

Range: Anything that gets me the same range as the 18XL is good enough for me. I've considered the Sherman for range purposes, but I think it's too damn heavy for off-roading, especially for more technical stuff, when a lot of weight shifting is involved. It amounts to half my weight, I think it would be overkill, honestly...

Comfort: Nikola (1 vote) vs MSP (0 votes). Or neither, compared to a KS wheel   Looks like this is going to be the main issue with either one (or not)

Pedal height: MSP

Pedal angle: Will probably have to file down either one of them.

LED lights, bells & whistles: not important to me

 

Overall, I think I'm leaning towards the MSP. The general idea is that I'll use the 16X for off-roading, rides/tours where I won't be riding among traffic or have plenty of paths for more mellow, lower speeds, while the MSP will make a great all-rounder, capable of doing everything the 16X can, as well as give me that extra speed & safety margin when riding in traffic. I also intend on using it for long tours in uncharted territory, where there's a mix of on-road and off-road and I don't know how rough the terrain will be, so off-roading capabilities are important. So is the 3" tire when riding at higher speeds. I've had terrain irregularities induce wobbles on the 18XL that the 16X glided right over, despite the smaller tire diameter.

I also like the idea of having a 16" and an 18". I think of the MSP as what I'd like the 18XL to be---a good all-rounder with good range, good for any riding scenario I throw at it, but with a wider tire, more torque and higher speed/more safety margin (albeit less comfortable) 😅. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by travsformation

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

Again, absolute agreement. We are at the same result. If the suspension wheels hadn't appeared on the scene, I would have ordered the MSP a few days before the V11 release. Now I really want a wheel with suspension. Preferably a S18 with MSP performance.

Not because it's cool and new, but because 16X hardcore offroad (despite 25 psi) is the reason that I have had problems and pain in my ankles for 6 months that just won't go away. Pills and ointments without success and laser therapy for weeks. But since I can't let the 16X riding, the healing process is really dragging on. I ride at the weekend and go to the doctor during the week.

Since I doubt that there will be anything reasonably good with suspension this year, I'm back at the MSP, since Gotway seems to be planning to build even uglier wheels instead of something completely new with suspension. 

 Oh no, stop. I wanted a wheel with suspension.