Thinking of upgrading from an 18XL to a GW, but which one? Nikola or MSP?

[travsformation]

57 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Again, absolute agreement. We are at the same result. If the suspension wheels hadn't appeared on the scene, I would have ordered the MSP a few days before the V11 release. Now I really want a wheel with suspension. Preferably a S18 with MSP performance.

Not because it's cool and new, but because 16X hardcore offroad (despite 25 psi) is the reason that I have had problems and pain in my ankles for 6 months that just won't go away. Pills and ointments without success and laser therapy for weeks. But since I can't let the 16X riding, the healing process is really dragging on. I ride at the weekend and go to the doctor during the week.

Since I doubt that there will be anything reasonably good with suspension this year, I'm back at the MSP, since Gotway seems to be planning to build even uglier wheels instead of something completely new with suspension. 

 Oh no, stop. I wanted a wheel with suspension. 

I feel ya. I've had some serious knee aches that would last for weeks after long, hardcore off-road expeditions. I have flat feet so for postural reasons, I'm prone to knee fatigue, and man does EUC off-roading do a number on them. In that sense, I was excited when the V11 and S18 were released, especially when I heard they both equipped 18x3" tires, but neither of them meet my needs. The V11 comes closer: the range is adequate, the acceleration seems excellent and the 55 km/h FW is slightly appealing, but only for the first 20% after a full charge...makes it somewhat of an anecdotal feature. Plus, the suspension system doesn't convince me and, between you and I, it's IM's ugliest wheel to date   (doesn't look like the kind of wheel I'd want to take off-roading either)

And the S18...as much as I'd love to love it, just falls short in too many departments. Up the batteries to 1550Wh and increase the top speed to 55 km/h and I'd be sold. But that isn't going to be happening anytime soon and I don't have the patience to wait for whatever comes next, so an MSP it is. Gotta keep things interesting, learn to ride a GW (aka experiment with new ways of messing up my knees with that posture-obliterating dihedral) and see what a 55 km/h faceplant feels like while I wait for/if I survive until the perfect wheel for my needs is released 😅

Oh, crap. I'm inciting you aren't I? I should probably be trying to talk you out of getting an MSP... 😅

Edited July 5, 2020 by travsformation

[Marty Backe]

14 hours ago, Seba said:

Please take a look at this tour recording - https://euc.world/tour/588129920730351 - it's the last day of my 2051 km cross-country trip I've finished yesterday. At this day I completely depleted my KS-18XL battery. Please take a closer look at the end of battery level and voltage graphs.

At 142.8 km distance I reached 0 % of battery level (I use default, optimized battery level algorithm). At this point wheel speed throttling limit was just 29 km/h (18 mph). Knowing that I'm running out of battery, I was riding very conservatively with average speed below 20 km/h. Soon after reaching 0 %, EUC started to continuously beep three times to indicate low battery condition. Just five kilometers later, at 147 km of distance, battery voltage dropped to 60 V and my EUC declined to ride and tilted back 45 degrees. That was end of my ride. From 0 % I had only 5 km of remaining distance reserve (for ~1600 Wh battery).

This is how optimized battery level algorithm is intended to work. It says that you have 0 % battery left when you have a very small margin of available distance left and throttling starts to limit your speed to a level that is unacceptable, especially if you're going for a group ride with guys riding 30 km/h+. I know that many EUC users got used to unreliable battery level indications, saying that you still have 10 % battery left when your wheel tilts back on every acceleration. For me, it's unacceptable to have 5 - 10 % of battery level available when my wheel is effectively unrideable. I expect it to work in a way a car fuel gauge works - when indication drops to zero, I know that I have some small and unknown distance reserve before engine will start to stall and finally stop. EUC World default settings are meant for novice users. Novice users usually don't know how to map app percents to EUC remaining range. They expect that their wheel will be usable down to 0 %. More advanced users may switch to standard algo that matches OEM algo or even create own by defining custom battery levels.

Of course, I was able to fine tune optimized algorithm for King Song wheels. I constantly get very positive feedback from other KS users assuring me that making this algo a default one was a good move. But maybe math I assumed for Gotways isn't working as good, as I don't have a GW wheel I could work with for a longer time. Maybe optimized algo is too conservative in case of GW wheels and should be fine tuned also. It's very probable. I will however get GW wheel within few days so I'll be able to verify and improve optimized battery level algorithm in Gotway wheels so it will work in a way it works for my KS-18XL. Of course, I'm also open for some user input with suggestion how to tune this algo: at what battery levels GW wheel starts to throttling and to what speed etc.

 

No, the only thing you gained is an illusion that you have 15 % battery more

Sorry Seba. In the Gotway world you have literally gained 15% battery. 95% of the people I ride with ride Gotway wheels. This is my world  

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Sorry Seba. In the Gotway world you have literally gained 15% battery. 95% of the people I ride with ride Gotway wheels. This is my world  

So EUC World physically increases Wh? I'm impressed, @Seba 😜

On a serious note, I think what Seba meant was that regardless of what read-out the app gives, you still get the same real-world range (whether you're riding at 10% or riding for several miles at 0% / "minus 5%"). 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by travsformation

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, travsformation said:

So EUC World physically increases Wh? I'm impressed, @Seba 😜

On a serious note, I think what Seba meant was that regardless of what read-out the app gives, you still get the same real-world range (whether you're riding at 10% or riding for several miles at 0% / "minus 5%"). 

 

All I'm saying, is PRETTY PLEASE just give us the wheel reports battery levels as default. If you want to do anything else, go to town. But make an option that the user has to buy-in.

Everyone I know who rides Gotway dislikes this "feature".

[Planemo]

Yeah I returned to the 'normal' battery setting. The default setting is very conservative indeed for GW I think. A friend of mine was riding his MSX 100v 1230wh down to 8% and it was still going. That was on a very old version of the wheel log app, so the 'non conservative' (wheel reading) battery percentage I believe.

[travsformation]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:44 AM, Marty Backe said:

All I'm saying, is PRETTY PLEASE just give us the wheel reports battery levels as default. If you want to do anything else, go to town. But make an option that the user has to buy-in.

Everyone I know who rides Gotway dislikes this "feature".

I dislike it too, for that matter.

I personally think the best solution would be a prompt, either when opening the app for the first time, or when you connect a new wheel, asking you which battery algorithm you want to use.

Edited July 7, 2020 by travsformation

[Seba]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

All I'm saying, is PRETTY PLEASE just give us the wheel reports battery levels as default. If you want to do anything else, go to town. But make an option that the user has to buy-in.

Everyone I know who rides Gotway dislikes this "feature".

I will get MTen and MSP this week, so I'll be able to create detailed, real-world battery discharge characteristics for both wheels. As all Gotways are very similar in this regards, this should allow me to fine-tune optimized battery algo for all Gotways in a way that should satisfy almost all GW users

[Marty Backe]

17 minutes ago, Seba said:

I will get MTen and MSP this week, so I'll be able to create detailed, real-world battery discharge characteristics for both wheels. As all Gotways are very similar in this regards, this should allow me to fine-tune optimized battery algo for all Gotways in a way that should satisfy almost all GW users

So if I read between the lines, you are determined to make the Optimized setting the default regardless of the desires of the community. Of course it's your app, and a great app, and we'll continue to adjust. But I will always complain loudly about the default 

[Seba]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

So if I read between the lines, you are determined to make the Optimized setting the default regardless of the desires of the community. Of course it's your app, and a great app, and we'll continue to adjust. But I will always complain loudly about the default 

Let's wait for the result, Marty  I just want to make app working consistently. As I wrote earlier, it's very probable that current GW optimized algorithm is way too conservative or just unrealistic. And I want to change it, making this algo much more reliable and realistic. Just let me try and please, don't be biased from start  Just... give me a chance  

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

Let's wait for the result, Marty  I just want to make app working consistently. As I wrote earlier, it's very probable that current GW optimized algorithm is way too conservative or just unrealistic. And I want to change it, making this algo much more reliable and realistic. Just let me try and please, don't be biased from start  Just... give me a chance  

Of course I will 

My criterion is that I shouldn't read ~0% battery until the Gotway wheel tilts-back to stop me from riding. Because that is reality.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Marty Backe

[travsformation]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

I will get MTen and MSP this week, so I'll be able to create detailed, real-world battery discharge characteristics for both wheels. As all Gotways are very similar in this regards, this should allow me to fine-tune optimized battery algo for all Gotways in a way that should satisfy almost all GW users

Make sure you find the time to RIDE THEM too! 😉 

[travsformation]

On 7/6/2020 at 7:18 PM, Marty Backe said:

Of course I will 

My criterion is that I shouldn't read ~0% battery until the Gotway wheel tilts-back to stop me from riding. Because that's is reality.

That's not what the youth of today expect 😂 They (my girlfriend is a perfect example) expect engineers to have taken their bad planning skills into account and to have an extra 50 miles of range left once the fuel gauge marks 0... 

I have no idea what kind of reserve my car has because the lowest the tank has ever been is 1/8th, but it usually never goes before 1/4th. I must be old school... Either that, or I've adapted to the fact my fuel gauges have always been unreliable 😅

Edited July 8, 2020 by travsformation

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

My criterion is that I shouldn't read ~0% battery until the Gotway wheel tilts-back to stop me from riding. Because that is reality.

Out of interest, at what point does that happen? I've never hit it on my msx so I guess it would be good to know in advance! In fact Ive never hit any low batt alarms on it, I really should educate myself..only a matter of time before it happens

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Out of interest, at what point does that happen? I've never hit it on my msx so I guess it would be good to know in advance! In fact Ive never hit any low batt alarms on it, I really should educate myself..only a matter of time before it happens

Yeah, you should learn how your wheel behaves. That's why I test all my wheels to extremes.

At about ~2% battery level the wheel will gently tilt the pedals back. Eventually they will get so steep that you'll be forced to dismount. At under 15% load (riding) the wheel will start beeping. You should slow down until it stops beeping. The no-beep speed will keep decreasing until you'll be limited to about 4-mph.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Marty Backe

[Planemo]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Yeah, you should learn how your wheel behaves.

Absolutely, and how they work too. I know 110% how my msx will behave at the upper ends of battery %, but my knowledge at low batt is totally unknown to me. For one reason only - I cant ride how I want to ride at anything below 20% so I dont go there (lowest I have ever seen was 23% under load). So I plan my rides accordingly and always carry my 6A charger if out for the day. Yes I am missing out on a few miles I am sure but not only do I not want my speed severely capped, I just dont enjoy range anxiety or the fear of a sudden high current requirement with low batt either. I dont see it necessary and the ranges I get between charges is enough anyway.

Very handy to know what will happen at low batt though, no doubt I will get caught out at some point, and I appreciate your advice

[mrelwood]

My low battery riding behavior on the MSX changed dramatically once I realized that for the voltage that the MSX shows 0%, the 18XL would show 25% and only have just started throttling the top speed at 30%. If the safety conscious KS can go 45km/h at 66V, so can I.

 This could also be why the same EUCW battery algorithm doesn’t work for GotWays.

[travsformation]

To chime in on the optimized/conservative battery calculation in EUC World, I personally find it to be too conservative on KS wheels too. Yesterday I received a cheap android phone that I plan on using as my dedicated EUC phone (EUC.W & Komoot for navigation), so I don't risk damaging my main, much more expensive one. I thought I'd configured EUC World to my liking, but apparently forgot to change the battery algorithm from optimized to standard. This became apparent when, mid-tour, having set off on the 16X with 100% battery, I was getting a 29% battery readout after less than 40 km. I looked for a place to pull over, wondering what the hell was going on and whether I'd be able to make it home, and at idle, I was getting 35% battery at nearly 74V and having just passed the 41 km mark. Once I guessed what the "problem" was, I disconnected the wheel from the new phone and connected it to EUC.W on the old one (where battery level is set to standard), and it gave me a 63% reading (also at ide). The two screenshots below were taken maybe 30 sec. apart:

Optimized:                                                                    Standard:

     

This is a massive, 28% (nearly 1/3) difference! And I know for a fact that, realistically, I could perfectly well do another 40 km with the battery level, pushing it just as hard. I've ridden the 16X down to 1% and it was still rideable.

I think the optimized algorithm is a good idea @Seba, but I think it's a little too conservative. Needless to say, it's your app and your decision, but just to share my experience, among the Spanish EUC community, battery % algorithm is one of the most common questions I get asked, and it makes sense.

Although I understand the reason for going with the optimized algorithm as default for new users' sake, IMHO there's an inherent problem with that approach: New users don't install EUC.W to use with their very first wheel: they generally install the OEM app, which gives them the "standard" reading, which is also consistent with the battery level indicated by the LED lights/LCD on their wheel, and use that for a while. My guess is that when they eventually end up installing EUC.W, they do so either because they got fed up with the buggy OEM app and looked or an alternative, or because they joined this/a forum, or it was recommended by a friend during a group ride; either way, these users have probably already been riding for some time and are (more or less) familiar with the range of their wheel and the data the OEM app has been giving them.

When they install EUC.W and get such low readings, they're puzzled and think something is wrong with the app, especially when the battery % is inconsistent with what their wheel is indicating, and by such a large margin. I've had to solve this doubt a lot of times, including advanced users coming from Darknessbot who'd just bought an Android phone to use with EUC.W and didn't understand why they were getting less than 30% battery at 70V.

I still think a prompt on first install, suggesting that there are two possible battery calculation algorithms, would be the best approach. Anyway, just my thoughts, for whatever they're worth 

P.S. Talk about derailing the thread...well, at least it's my own thread for a change... 😅😂

Edited July 7, 2020 by travsformation

[Jim Martin]

How are you guys changing the Battery Algorithm?  It is grayed out on EUCW.  I only have the check box option to use the average battery or not.

[DjPanJan]

I love how optimized algorithm work. I am for keep it as is. I use this like feature i can optimize my incline /mountain climbing and i see inpact on batery realtime in real safety optimized numbers.

[travsformation]

37 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

How are you guys changing the Battery Algorithm?  It is grayed out on EUCW.  I only have the check box option to use the average battery or not.

The wheel needs to be connected and you need to make sure that:

a) You're not recording a tour

b) You're not logging data. Tap on the CSV icon on the main screen (green = logging on, white = logging off)

[Jim Martin]

31 minutes ago, travsformation said:

The wheel needs to be connected and you need to make sure that:

a) You're not recording a tour

b) You're not logging data. Tap on the CSV icon on the main screen (green = logging on, white = logging off)

Thank you, that worked!  I always wondered why my Monster V3 battery level seemed to be inaccurate when using EUCW.  I switched to standard algorithm and left "average" battery on.  About to go on a long group ride tonight so will see how it goes.  Thanks again!

[seage]

Yeah, the other day i was making a trec home on my 18XL, and i have all the optimized stuff off already. I was riding a steady 45kmh the entire time. By the end, it just kinda....locked at 9% when id pull power, and then raise accordingly, but never go below 9%. When i looked at the lights, they were still green and i had almost half of em, so i ccouldnt tell. My wheel was telling me i was standing at 13% when i got home, but the lights were still green. I was a bit confused tbh. 

[Seba]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:44 AM, Marty Backe said:

All I'm saying, is PRETTY PLEASE just give us the wheel reports battery levels as default. If you want to do anything else, go to town. But make an option that the user has to buy-in.

 

8 hours ago, travsformation said:

To chime in on the optimized/conservative battery calculation in EUC World, I personally find it to be too conservative on KS wheels too.

Ok, guys - you convinced me!  Starting from next EUC World release standard algorithm will be default for all new EUCW installs  There is also a FAQ section under development that will include short information about battery level and additionally, I'll create a YT video with more detailed informations about battery level - what it is, how it is calculated etc. etc.

...and what is rather obvious... I'll redirect all complaints like "your app is showing 10 percents but as soon as I try to ride my wheel, it tilts back and I CAN'T RIDE!!!" to @Marty Backe and @travsformation...      

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, Seba said:

 

Ok, guys - you convinced me!  Starting from next EUC World release standard algorithm will be default for all new EUCW installs  There is also a FAQ section under development that will include short information about battery level and additionally, I'll create a YT video with more detailed informations about battery level - what it is, how it is calculated etc. etc.

...and what is rather obvious... I'll redirect all complaints like "your app is showing 10 percents but as soon as I try to ride my wheel, it tilts back and I CAN'T RIDE!!!" to @Marty Backe and @travsformation...      

I need to buy you a beer 

[travsformation]

So, back to the choice of wheel dilemma. It's no longer between the Nikola and the MSP, but the MSP and the Sherman... 😅😂