Dzlchef Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Looks like I might have a science project in my future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 2 hours ago, wheelr said: It's not an either or issue. Glue should NEVER be used anywhere near any MOSFET I'm simply considering the worst case. That would be: the "manufacturing issue" is them changing to new, TO-247 boards while still happily using glue. Of course I hope it's no glue + new board. Or at least no glue. Someone just needs to take their glue guns away altogether. And their silicone applicators while we're at it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 30 minutes ago, Dzlchef said: Looks like I might have a science project in my future. Jason is getting a batch of the newly updated control boards. I would just get one of those and be done with it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted June 26, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Marty Backe said: Jason is getting a batch of the newly updated control boards. I would just get one of those and be done with it. If these have bigger mosfets, worth it. But if they are simply glue-less but the same otherwise, why spend 200+ for a board when you can order some thermal pads and fix the error yourself? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dzlchef Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Jason is getting a batch of the newly updated control boards. I would just get one of those and be done with it. Today is the first day that I’m not riding my Nikola to work or on a long ride. So sad, now I understand just a taste of what you’ve had to endure @Marty Backe. I feel for you! I’ll definitely wait for a replacement board from Jason. Hope it doesn’t take forever, but done properly with bigger MOSFETs. We could do a board swap session then take them up overheat hill. 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2019 38 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: If these have bigger mosfets, worth it. But if they are simply glue-less but the same otherwise, why spend 200+ for a board when you can order some thermal pads and fix the error yourself? The replacement boards the EWheels is getting have the new MOSFETs. EWheels customers won't have to spend any $$$ 11 minutes ago, Dzlchef said: Today is the first day that I’m not riding my Nikola to work or on a long ride. So sad, now I understand just a taste of what you’ve had to endure @Marty Backe. I feel for you! I’ll definitely wait for a replacement board from Jason. Hope it doesn’t take forever, but done properly with bigger MOSFETs. We could do a board swap session then take them up overheat hill. 😁 They are being sent out this week from Gotway, so we may have something the following week. It may be a couple of weeks before I go back to the testing grounds 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: The replacement boards the EWheels is getting have the new MOSFETs. EWheels customers won't have to spend any $$$ wow, this is great news! I have a Nikola that is grounded and bought from eWheels. Is Jason going to get in touch with us or do we need to reach out to him. Just sucks having to wait, but hey at least they are doing something about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jim Martin said: wow, this is great news! I have a Nikola that is grounded and bought from eWheels. Is Jason going to get in touch with us or do we need to reach out to him. Just sucks having to wait, but hey at least they are doing something about it. I obviously can't speak for EWheels, but based on previous episodes like this, Jason will send out an e-mail to affected customers when ready. If I were to guess, I would say this will be happening the week of July 8th. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 These are the exact situations why you guys buy from Jason for a slightly higher initial cost. You are actually being taken care of. I adore Jason for what he does! 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Someone just needs to take their glue guns away altogether. And their silicone applicators while we're at it. Referring to the marvellous and professional science based testing made by @Phil McLaughlin (at previous page), I would definitely confiscate all rolls of any kind of tape as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phil McLaughlin Posted June 26, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2019 46 minutes ago, mrelwood said: These are the exact situations why you guys buy from Jason for a slightly higher initial cost. You are actually being taken care of. I adore Jason for what he does! Referring to the marvellous and professional science based testing made by @Phil McLaughlin (at previous page), I would definitely confiscate all rolls of any kind of tape as well. Thanks so much for the positive comment! The scotch tape points out just how well any legitimate thermal bonding technique works without surface contaminants. I saved the best test for last and hope to post the video tonight. I promise it will be a shorter video! 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Phil McLaughlin said: Thanks so much for the positive comment! The scotch tape points out just how well any legitimate thermal bonding technique works without surface contaminants. I saved the best test for last and hope to post the video tonight. I promise it will be a shorter video! Don't promise that Phil! I'm holding out for the three hours director's cut anyway, this is slow TV in my liking. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phil McLaughlin Posted June 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2019 Here is the second part of my video discussing the Gotway Nikola control board inspection and rebuild. This includes one more lab test and a detailed reassembly using thermal paste coupled with electrical insulation techniques. @Nils nailed it; I ended up publishing the director's cut. Most importantly, now that I have finished documenting this thermal issue and its solutions... I HAVE MY NIKOLA BACK. 17 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post erk1024 Posted June 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) On 6/26/2019 at 4:14 PM, Phil McLaughlin said: The scotch tape points out just how well any legitimate thermal bonding technique works without surface contaminants. Great video! It also shows that a tiny modification from Gotway (using a self-adhesive type pad) would make it easy to assemble and eliminate any motivation to use a contaminating adhesive to keep the strip in place during assembly. Obviously somebody at some level should have noticed glue was going on the boards, put a stop to it, and recall every affected unit. Gotway should hire you Phil. Edited June 28, 2019 by erk1024 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, erk1024 said: Great video! It also shows that a tiny modification from Gotway (using a self-adhesive type pad) would make it easy to assemble and eliminate any motivation to use a contaminating adhesive to keep the strip in place during assembly. Obviously somebody at some level should have noticed glue was going on the boards, put a stop to it, and recalled every affected unit. Gotway should hire you Phil. Some how I suspect working for a Chinese company is the last thing on Phil's wish list Edited June 28, 2019 by Marty Backe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phil McLaughlin Posted June 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2019 28 minutes ago, erk1024 said: Great video! It also shows that a tiny modification from Gotway (using a self-adhesive type pad) would make it easy to assemble and eliminate any motivation to use a contaminating adhesive to keep the strip in place during assembly. Obviously somebody at some level should have noticed glue was going on the boards, put a stop to it, and recall every affected unit. Gotway should hire you Phil. Thanks! Using separate self adhesive pads would end up being a bit more work since they would have to be individually placed (think one big strip would move around) but I agree with you that it is not that much harder than what they are doing. The thermal paste with mica is amazing but unfortunately it is very labor intensive. I did it just to prove feasibility. I think that the big takeaway is that the package size of the MOSFET is not the full story. It is not just TO-220=BAD and TO-247=GOOD. 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil McLaughlin Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 26 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Some how I suspect working for a Chinese company is the last thing on Phil's wish list Yeah... think I would pass on that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Wow the thermal paste made a huge difference! I'm tempted to do that to any wheel by default now. Guess that makes sense (in hindsight) with how thick the standard thermal pad is, but I wouldn't have expected such a massive improvement. How exactly are those insulating plastic pads called? Thank you for a very good video! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rywokast Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 40 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Wow the thermal paste made a huge difference! I'm tempted to do that to any wheel by default now. Guess that makes sense (in hindsight) with how thick the standard thermal pad is, but I wouldn't have expected such a massive improvement. How exactly are those insulating plastic pads called? Thank you for a very good video! i was thinking of these... https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/56-77-11G/56-77-11G-ND/1625385/?itemSeq=296706205 i do already have a bunch of 220 specific thermal pads as well as sheets in various sizes, but strongly considering this route.. ill have to wait for sure to know about my nikola they may have switched to 247s dont know yet... hopefully in the next few days 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil McLaughlin Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 48 minutes ago, Rywokast said: i was thinking of these... https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/56-77-11G/56-77-11G-ND/1625385/?itemSeq=296706205 i do already have a bunch of 220 specific thermal pads as well as sheets in various sizes, but strongly considering this route.. ill have to wait for sure to know about my nikola they may have switched to 247s dont know yet... hopefully in the next few days These are the ones tested in the first video: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/53-77-4ACG/53-77-4ACG-ND/1625215/?itemSeq=295984971 They have a peel-off backing and very slightly sticky so they would not move during installation even when the board and heat sink are standing on edge which I think is the easiest position to mate them up. Assembly would be super easy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil McLaughlin Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Wow the thermal paste made a huge difference! I'm tempted to do that to any wheel by default now. Guess that makes sense (in hindsight) with how thick the standard thermal pad is, but I wouldn't have expected such a massive improvement. How exactly are those insulating plastic pads called? Thank you for a very good video! https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/53-77-4ACG/53-77-4ACG-ND/1625215/?itemSeq=295984971 The question with the paste/mica job is whether it is really necessary... It did amaze me with its ability to transfer heat though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chriull Posted June 28, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2019 8 hours ago, Phil McLaughlin said: Here is the second part of my video discussing the Gotway Nikola control board inspection and rebuild. This includes one more lab test and a detailed reassembly using thermal paste coupled with electrical insulation techniques. @Nils nailed it; I ended up publishing the director's cut. Most importantly, now that I have finished documenting this thermal issue and its solutions... I HAVE MY NIKOLA BACK. Great video! Good point with most presumably one will not get much different to higher temperatures reported! But with the important difference, that the high temperature "get away" from the mosfet substrate to the heatsink keeping him alive! Really great video! Just in case one wants to do the same mod as you have shown - afair you did not show the insulating shoulder washers in the vid? (Or did i miss that?) So just that no mishap happens to one - "normal" insulating plastic/rubber washers are not applicaple, they need the "shoulder": https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aavid,-thermal-division-of-boyd-corporation/4880MG/4880MG-ND/1625265 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nils Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Phil McLaughlin said: Here is the second part of my video discussing the Gotway Nikola control board inspection and rebuild. This includes one more lab test and a detailed reassembly using thermal paste coupled with electrical insulation techniques. @Nils nailed it; I ended up publishing the director's cut. Most importantly, now that I have finished documenting this thermal issue and its solutions... I HAVE MY NIKOLA BACK. Fantastic video again Phil! I think it's safe to say you now have the best assembled Nikola motherboard of any one Very interesting with comparison of heat pads vs the mica wafer. It's fiddly enough that I don't see any manufacturer going for it (or myself for that matter), but nice to see that it works out so well. I can only hope for more similar videos in the future, even though I of course hope you won't have any similar need to do them Edited June 28, 2019 by Nils 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Phil McLaughlin Posted June 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2019 35 minutes ago, Chriull said: Great video! Good point with most presumably one will not get much different to higher temperatures reported! But with the important difference, that the high temperature "get away" from the mosfet substrate to the heatsink keeping him alive! Really great video! Just in case one wants to do the same mod as you have shown - afair you did not show the insulating shoulder washers in the vid? (Or did i miss that?) So just that no mishap happens to one - "normal" insulating plastic/rubber washers are not applicaple, they need the "shoulder": https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aavid,-thermal-division-of-boyd-corporation/4880MG/4880MG-ND/1625265 Yes, well put! There was some mention of the insulating shoulder washer inserts in the first video and also some cautions about checking for them in the second. I did not discuss sources for these because all of the factory setups would already have them installed since the through-bolts that pass through the MOSFET tab are bolted to the shared electrically conductive heat sink and thereby cannot contact the metal mounting tab of the MOSFET. I just reused the original hardware. Sorry about the length of these videos but I wanted to do a thorough coverage of the subject with close to real-life tests to see if practice actually matched theory and myth. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 28, 2019 Author Share Posted June 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, Phil McLaughlin said: I wanted to do a thorough coverage of the subject with close to real-life tests to see if practice actually matched theory and myth. Yeah - Phil "Myth Buster" McLaughlin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) Fibrous Biologic Alignment Drift. F-Bad @Phil McLaughlin , @Chriull good point about the board cavity possibly registering hotter as the heat once localized by the hot glue bottleneck in a few of the mosfets, can now escape into the heat sink. I wonder if this is why @Marty Backe was getting such low temp. reading.(right before scoring his touchdown) Edited June 28, 2019 by Smoother 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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