WARNING: Gotway Nikola production (assembly) issue [Solved]

[diegoxxx]

23 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Przepraszamy za spóźnioną obecność na imprezie. Od czasu otrzymania awarii drugiej planszy (ta sprawa była inna, była włączona z trybu stojącego i nie odpowiadała), w tym Marty'ego, w ciągu dwóch tygodni od wysłania pierwszej partii Nikolasa, skontaktowałem się z Linneą w sprawie Czwartek, aby spróbować opracować plan działania, aby zobaczyć, jakie opcje są dostępne, aby znacznie zmniejszyć / wyeliminować ryzyko zdarzeń związanych z przeciążeniem termicznym MOSFET.

Dowody z obu tych niepowodzeń wykazały podobieństwo w wynikach (patrz poniżej), gdzie ten klej może działać jako bariera termiczna, nie wspomagana brakiem pasty termicznej na spodzie metalowej powierzchni wymiany ciepła. Jedną z badanych opcji jest przywołanie tablic. usuń ten klej i nałóż pastę termiczną. Do tej pory Gotway wysłał 600 jednostek; twierdzą, że nie otrzymali zgłoszeń z innych regionów tej awarii - prawdopodobnie będzie więcej czasu. Oficjalne odwołanie nie jest lekceważeniem; w swojej obronie prawdopodobnie szukają kilku innych raportów, przed podjęciem tego kroku.

Gotway ma duże doświadczenie w budowie pojazdów silnikowych o dużej mocy; przeszli przez kilka szorstkich łat, szczególnie z niezawodnością płyt wcześniejszej generacji, ze słabszymi MOSFET-ami, ale przynajmniej wtedy byli dość konsekwentni w stosowaniu dużych ilości pasty termicznej do tego spodu. To było dla mnie zaskakujące, dlaczego wrócili do gorszego pakietu TO22x FET I teraz dowiadujemy się o braku pasty termicznej. Z mojego doświadczenia wynika, że takie przeoczenia zwykle nie są wynikiem szczypania grosza, ale wykonania na linii produkcyjnej, gdzie fabryka potrzebuje bezwzględnego menedżera podłogi z orłem, aby zobaczyć, że każdy krok montażu jest wykonywany przez książkę. 

Srebrzystą częścią tego wszystkiego jest to, że wczesne odkrycie w cyklu produkcyjnym jest koniecznym aspektem dla niewielkiego zakładu produkcyjnego bez ISO, gdzie finansowy ból producenta związany z koniecznością radzenia sobie z kryzysem oznacza, że będą one przepojone poczuciem, że ta sytuacja nigdy nie może się powtórzyć. 

Dla wszystkich obecnych właścicieli Nikoli, proszę, trzymajcie się tego, powinniśmy mieć plan działania w ciągu najbliższych kilku dni. 

EDYCJA : Aby przewidzieć pytania dotyczące 100V Nikolas, używają pakietu TO247 MOSFET, pierwsza produkcja tych specjalnych edycji 1845Wh jest nadal w toku, istnieje pewność, że w świetle tego odcinka, otrzymają termiczną pastę!



 

Woow

[stephen]

5 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Wow. That’s insane. And scary.

 

I only had about 60 miles on it. Mostly chill riding getting to know the wheel.. I had just gotten used to it and was riding through a local park on a gravel path and went up a lil hill maybe 30 or 40 meters long and I got to the top and stopped. Laid the wheel on its side and it beeped and disengaged the motor.  When I picked it back up it wouldn’t re engage no matter what I did.  It was soo weird   I can’t believe it burned up like that. Must’ve been some kind of crazy power surge or something right ? 

Wow! Nothing extreme then that's worrying , it's a good job it went when it did 

Hope they fix this soon , surley gotway is still not shipping them out 

[Marty Backe]

44 minutes ago, stephen said:

Wow! Nothing extreme then that's worrying , it's a good job it went when it did 

Hope they fix this soon , surley gotway is still not shipping them out 

Just jest, right? 

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Just jest, right? 

 oooh dear 

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

I’m still riding my repaired nikola and it’s riding great. Going up the hills around Seattle with no issues at all.  It feels even better than it did with the first board in it.  I love riding this wheel.

I would be troubled if my wheel felt different after a board replacement. Perhaps they have updated the riding algorithms already?

7 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Anyone have any guesses about what if anything will be done for us about our unsatisfactory boards ?? 

My guess, Gotway finally introduces a bluetooth-upgradeable firmware for download for $12, and says it will fix the issue.

[Rehab1]

8 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

Have you opened-up your replacement board and looked for glue?!!!

 

8 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

No I am not going to mess with it. I’m scared to not be able to get it back together perfectly . 

It would be nice to see the new replacement board that @Jason McNeil kindly installed but fully understand your reluctance opening up the shell. Maybe ask Jason if he took some post repair photos of your wheel. 

[Mrd777]

I’d like to open up my 100volt to see if there is glue on the board, however it seems like a huge hassle in that I have to pull that board out and over just to get a peek. What a pain Gotway!

[meepmeepmayer]

27 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

I’d like to open up my 100volt to see if there is glue on the board, however it seems like a huge hassle in that I have to pull that board out and over just to get a peek. What a pain Gotway!

Please make a lot of photos of the board from all directions and with all the details, should you open the wheel. I want to see those sweet mosfets confirmed

[Dzlchef]

47 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Please make a lot of photos of the board from all directions and with all the details, should you open the wheel. I want to see those sweet mosfets confirmed

I’m going to assume it’ll take a tad more hot glue to hold the bigger MOSFETs in place. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Speedy Feet statement

From an email by Ian:

Quote

I have been chatting with Gotway. They are absolutely adamant this is a case by case issue and not a model wide issue. (we are publishing an article later today with all they have said in it).

Here's the article. Doesn't say much more than this.

https://www.speedyfeet.co.uk/blogs/things-concerning-safety/gotway-nikola-control-boards-first-release

Doesn't look like Gotway thinks this is anything but a one-off wheel failure instead of an issue that affects every wheel where the board was falsely assembled with hot glue between some mosfets and the heatsink, and neither we (nor they, probably) know how many and which wheels these are. They don't seem to understand that only because nothing much has happened yet, doesn't mean there is no big problem

[Marty Backe]

35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Speedy Feet statement

From an email by Ian:

Here's the article. Doesn't say much more than this.

https://www.speedyfeet.co.uk/blogs/things-concerning-safety/gotway-nikola-control-boards-first-release

Doesn't look like Gotway thinks this is anything but a one-off wheel failure instead of an issue that affects every wheel where the board was falsely assembled with hot glue between some mosfets and the heatsink, and neither we (nor they, probably) know how many and which wheels these are. They don't seem to understand that only because nothing much has happened yet, doesn't mean there is no big problem

All I can say is that if I just get a regular replacement control board, I'll never take my Nikola on any strenuous rides. It'll certainly never see Overheat Hill again.

[Nils]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Speedy Feet statement

From an email by Ian:

Here's the article. Doesn't say much more than this.

https://www.speedyfeet.co.uk/blogs/things-concerning-safety/gotway-nikola-control-boards-first-release

Doesn't look like Gotway thinks this is anything but a one-off wheel failure instead of an issue that affects every wheel where the board was falsely assembled with hot glue between some mosfets and the heatsink, and neither we (nor they, probably) know how many and which wheels these are. They don't seem to understand that only because nothing much has happened yet, doesn't mean there is no big problem

Well getting any kind of response from Gotway on the issue counts as progress I'd guess. "According to engineer's word, it's safe" still doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling for some reason, and claiming that it's one case when we know that there are at least two failures leaves something to be desired.

Anyway, back to more practical things, I'm eager to inspect my own wheel and am interested in whether an endoscope camera would actually work. They seem to come mostly with heads at around 8 mm or so, and assuming we're dealing with HY3712P MOSFETs there seems like there would only be around 4.5 mm to begin with, making it a no-go. Seems pretty hard to inspect if that's all the space that's available.  I'm actually considering opening it up if I have to to have a look, but would need to stock on some replacement material.

@Marty Backe, @Phil McLaughlin, since you have had the dubious pleasure of opening yours up, do you have any idea of actual space available between PCB and the heat sink? And perhaps what width the current the current thermal pad has?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Nils

[Nils]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

All I can say is that if I just get a regular replacement control board, I'll never take my Nikola on any strenuous rides. It'll certainly never see Overheat Hill again.

Agreed. For a replacement board to a good option it would need to be a modified one, something to show that they've acknowledged the issue and done something about it (e.g. with the TO-247 MOSFETs). At any rate, their engineer claiming now that all boards should be safe is just somewhat of an affront, and just conveys that they're not really caring about it. Had they considered it a real problem you'd expect an investigation and a POST-mortem statement of some kind outlining the extent of the issue and the intended actions to improve things in the future. At least it's something one would have expected from an ordinary company, but hey..

[meepmeepmayer]

13 minutes ago, Nils said:

I'm actually considering opening it up if I have too to have a look, but would need to stock on some replacement material.

If I were in your position, I'd make a plan how to remove the glue, and find a nice non-conducting thermal paste. Then I'd disassemble the board, look if there's glue and remove that if there is, and put it back together with the original heat pad and the thermal paste on both sides of the heat pad.

Then you should have a good board, right?

How does one remove such glue cleanly without damaging the mosfet plastic? And ideas?

[Smoother]

2 hours ago, Dzlchef said:

I’m going to assume it’ll take a tad more hot glue to hold the bigger MOSFETs in place. 

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, Nils said:

Well getting any kind of response from Gotway on the issue counts as progress I'd guess. "According to engineer's word, it's safe" still doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling for some reason, and claiming that it's one case when we know that there are at least two failures leaves something to be desired.

Anyway, back to more practical things, I'm eager to inspect my own wheel and am interested in whether an endoscope camera would actually work. They seem to come mostly with heads at around 8 mm or so, and assuming we're dealing with HY3712P MOSFETs there seems like there would only be around 4.5 mm to begin with, making it a no-go. Seems pretty hard to inspect if that's all the space that's available.  I'm actually considering opening it up if I have too to have a look, but would need to stock on some replacement material.

@Marty Backe, @Phil McLaughlin, since you have had the dubious pleasure of opening yours up, do you have any idea of actual space available between PCB and the heat sink? And perhaps what width the current the current thermal pad has?

At most, ~1/8-inch. Some places less. The thermal pad is ~4-inches by 3/4-inches and about 1/64" thick.

By using an extremely bright light and perhaps a magnifier with a long focal length (working distance) it may be possible to inspect from the edge without disassembly. Will know when you try.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If I were in your position, I'd make a plan how to remove the glue, and find a nice non-conducting thermal paste. Then I'd disassemble the board, look if there's glue and remove that if there is, and put it back together with the original heat pad and the thermal paste on both sides of the heat pad.

Then you should have a good board, right?

How does one remove such glue cleanly without damaging the mosfet plastic? And ideas?

Exactly. I can tell you that it's not possible to peel it off. Perhaps @Phil McLaughlin will be able to say something since that was his plan (or was he going to replace the affected MOSFETs?).

[Dzlchef]

45 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

All I can say is that if I just get a regular replacement control board, I'll never take my Nikola on any strenuous rides. It'll certainly never see Overheat Hill again.

And here I am contemplating taking my Nikola to Hollywood, up Outpost to Mullholland Dr. and across to Laurel Canyon and down to home.   Am I crazy?!?

[Unventor]

49 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

All I can say is that if I just get a regular replacement control board, I'll never take my Nikola on any strenuous rides. It'll certainly never see Overheat Hill again.

Sure you will see the hill....KS16X 

[stephen]

15 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Sure you will see the hill....KS16X 

Be nice to see how it does on over heat hill with the new motor 👍

I think the faceplant will be always be in the back of his mind now though on the newer wheels , 

@Marty Backe are you getting the wheel still if so when ,,ish😊

 

[Chriull]

41 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If I were in your position, I'd make a plan how to remove the glue, and find a nice non-conducting thermal paste. Then I'd disassemble the board, look if there's glue and remove that if there is, and put it back together with the original heat pad and the thermal paste on both sides of the heat pad.

I'd not take a paste - there will be metal to metal contact! That needs some insulation.

Best a good quality thermal pad.

41 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Then you should have a good board, right?

How does one remove such glue cleanly without damaging the mosfet plastic? And ideas?

The metal side has to be cleaned!? Heat it up, cut/scrape it off. Use aceton/isopropanol. Grind it for a smooth surface.

Taking care of the three legs, of course!

 

[Unventor]

Well on the more serious note, it isn't great at all, they call it a case by case issue.

Sometimes a manufacturer should look at the risk involved and how likely next incident will happen. 

I am still amazed how fast @Marty Backe could call what happened inside the wheel. even more so how her kept camera rolling and keeping his cool...and hiding the disappointment. 

Looking from what Speedyfeet posted, I read that as they are not happy with the responce either. So by going full public, they can say they asked GW, but GW didn’t take it seriously. 

We will see how this plays out, but if I were to look between Nikola and other wheels, the Nikola right now would be long down the list of choices. (Yes I choose the KS16X before this happened, we have yet to see how KS16X will work out, it might not be much better, it could have its own quarks).

What makes me most sad is that this unfortunate puts another penny into the piggy of "why I didn't buy a GW yet". The reason it makes me sad is, that I prefer competition between brands. But right now, choosing a GW is a very hard choice to make in my book. Other brands aren’t perfect either.

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Unventor
Just for the recoud, I hope GW comes to its senses and make a new controlboard with bigger MOSFETs and free of charge to people.

[wheelr]

In my opinion GlueWay has to:

* Give up the hot glue gun

* Use TO247 MOSFETs

* Come up with a clean assembly method for their current design and consider assembly in their future ones

This is the bare minim I expect in order to trust them again. Any other solution should be deemed unsatisfactory and this forum should continue its "do not buy" recommendation

 

[Kens]

16 minutes ago, Chriull said:

I'd not take a paste - there will be metal to metal contact! That needs some insulation.

I'm not expert in this but how about non-conductive thermal paste like Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut? Their website explicitly state that this paste has no electrical conductivity.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Kens

[Smoother]

30 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well on the more serious note, it isn't great at all, they call it a case by case issue.

The question is, who want's to find out the hard way that they have the next "case"?

When one knows ones wheel has a problem, one can't feel comfortable riding it, ever. Spoken from personal experience.

If I owned a Nicola I would not be able to relax while riding it.  Which completely defeats the purpose.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Smoother