WARNING: Gotway Nikola production (assembly) issue [Solved]

[Chriull]

Edit:  

there are now "official" statements from Gotway (on Facebook) that acknowledge the problem and that new control boards will be available for all owners of the original Nikola. Owners are supposed to contact the dealer where they bought the wheel.

Link to video of board replacement:

 

______________________

Unfortionately GW used something like hot glue inbetween the mosfet and the thermal pad as ?assembly help? for the nikola. Until now two cases are known:

 

 

 

If one is interested in the "whole story", it starts here with @Marty Backe's report after disassembly of his nikola after the mosfets burned at the beginning ("baby hill") of overheat hill

 

 

So if you are one of the happy owners of this, otherwise great wheel - PLEASE DRIVE CAREFUL AND DON'T TAKE IT TO THE MAX, DO NOT OVERLY BURDEN THE NIKOLA (for now).

Hopefully there will be soon some official statements from GW with a solution to this problem offered!

A "small" point, which also came out in this discussion after the fryed mosfets happened on overheat hill is that the reported current is very often very high (much more 90A current warnings than @Marty Backe normaly gets with his GWs) and a very low reported temperature! So it seems one should not wait for a overtemp alarm to be raised - watch the current (spikes?). Or even better - TAKE TIME TO RELAX AND DRIVE COMFORTABLY UNTIL THIS IS SOLVED!

Edit:

A great teardown and some thermal distribution test

Second Part

 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Chriull

[meepmeepmayer]

To be more clear:

• DO NOT BUY A NIKOLA FOR NOW!
• IF YOU HAVE ONE, YOUR BOARD MAY BE A TICKING TIME BOMB! IT MAY NEED REPLACEMENT OR A REPAIR THAT REMOVES THE GLUE BETWEEN THE MOSFETS AND HEATSINK.

You can buy Nikolas again when  they come with good boards. I assume they will do that from now on. But beware of older stock, e.g. on Ali. Maybe go for a trusted seller like ewheels as long as it is questionable which stock (good board or bad board) you'll get.

The sticker on the board contains a date (e.g. 190601... means 1st June 2019). If it is before now, your board may be affected by the bad assembly method. If it is after now (maybe give it a grace period), Gotway will have fixed the wrong assembly method and the board should be good. (*should* I hope the sticker date is the board+heatsink assembly date, not the production date from some supplier.)

We don't know if every Nikola board is affected because all Nikola boards were assembled by the bad worker(s), or if some are good and some are not depending on the worker. Everyone who checked so far has reported a bad board!

Edited June 22, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
clarification

[Hatchet]

At the very least this reinforces two things for me; 1) Wait until the second or third batch of new release wheels before buying; and 2) Buy from a trusted seller who makes me confident in after-sales service.

I'd still buy GW for sure though, following the above rules. 

[Smoother]

Again I ask (rhetorically) why does every step forward include a step backward, from these EUC manufacturers? Suddenly their workers can't assemble control boards!!?? This is beyond ridiculous?  There is absolutely no consistent manufacturing methodology in these factories. I blame the management.  I hear Gotway is owned by an engineer.  Some engineer!

 

[Jason McNeil]

Apologies for the late attendance to the party. Since receiving a 2nd board failure (this case was different, it was powered on from a stand still & didn't respond), including Marty's, within two weeks of shipping out the first batch of Nikolas, I've reached out to Linnea on Thursday to try to come up with an action plan to see what options are available to greatly reduce/eliminate the risk of these MOSFET thermal overload events.

The evidence from both of these failures has marked similarity in outcome (see below), where this glue may be acting as a thermal barrier, not helped by the absence of thermal paste on the underside of the metal heat transfer surface. One option being explored, is to recall the boards. remove this glue, & apply the thermal paste. To date Gotway have shipped 600 units; they say they have not received reports from other regions of this failure—it's likely more will trickle in in time. Putting out an official recall is not something to be taken lightly; in their defense, they're probably looking for a few other reports, before taking this step.

Gotway have a lot of experience with building high power motor vehicles; they had gone through several rough patches, particularly with reliability of earlier generation boards, with the weaker MOSFETS, but at least then they were pretty consistent with applying liberal quantities of thermal paste to this underside. It was baffling to me why they would go back to an inferior TO22x FET package AND now we learn about the lack of thermal paste. From my experience, such oversights are usually not the result of penny-pinching, but execution on the production line, where the factory needs a ruthless eagle-eyed floor manager, to see that every step of assembly is done by the book. 

The silver-lining to all this, is that an early finding in the production cycle is a necessary facet to a small-scale non-ISO production facility, where the manufacturer's financial pain of having to deal with a crisis, means that they will be imbued with a sense that this situation must never occur again. 

For all current Nikola owners, please hang in there, we should have an action plan in the next few days. 

EDIT: To anticipate questions on the 100V Nikolas, they are using the TO247 MOSFET package, the first production of these special edition 1845Wh variants is still underway, there is assurance that in light of this episode, they will getting the thermal paste treatment!



 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Jason McNeil

[Planemo]

I too am staggered that a TO22x package would be seen on an EUC. My ebike uses a bank of 6 and that's only 250w!!. Plus they are pasted to a heatsink - so I am surprised that the Nikolas are even lasting as long as Marty's did tbh.

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Apologies for the late attendance to the party. Since receiving a 2nd board failure (this case was different, it was powered on from a stand still & didn't respond), including Marty's, within two weeks of shipping out the first batch of Nikolas, I've reached out to Linnea on Thursday to try to come up with an action plan to see what options are available to greatly reduce/eliminate the risk of these MOSFET thermal overload events.

The evidence from both of these failures has marked similarity in outcome (see below), where this glue may be acting as a thermal barrier, not helped by the absence of thermal paste on the underside of the metal heat transfer surface. One option being explored, is to recall the boards. remove this glue, & apply the thermal paste. To date Gotway have shipped 600 units; they say they have not received reports from other regions of this failure—it's likely more will trickle in in time. Putting out an official recall is not something to be taken lightly; in their defense, they're probably looking for a few other reports, before taking this step.

Gotway have a lot of experience with building high power motor vehicles; they had gone through several rough patches, particularly with reliability of earlier generation boards, with the weaker MOSFETS, but at least then they were pretty consistent with applying liberal quantities of thermal paste to this underside. It was baffling to me why they would go back to an inferior TO22x FET package AND now we learn about the lack of thermal paste. From my experience, such oversights are usually not the result of penny-pinching, but execution on the production line, where the factory needs a ruthless eagle-eyed floor manager, to see that every step of assembly is done by the book. 

The silver-lining to all this, is that an early finding in the production cycle is a necessary facet to a small-scale non-ISO production facility, where the manufacturer's financial pain of having to deal with a crisis, means that they will be imbued with a sense that this situation must never occur again. 

For all current Nikola owners, please hang in there, we should have an action plan in the next few days. 

EDIT: To anticipate questions on the 100V Nikolas, they are using the TO247 MOSFET package, the first production of these special edition 1845Wh variants is still underway, there is assurance that in light of this episode, they will getting the thermal paste treatment!



 

@Jason McNeil is this a picture of my board ?   i was hoping for a little more info on the replacement of my board and what caused the failure . .. its running like a caddy now btw  so smooth   i love this wheel  thank you so much for getting it back to me so quickly as it is my main transportation for about 20 miles or more a day...  i really hope they just produce a replacement board with thermal paste and the larger to247 MOSFET for us to update our first edition crap boards but right now my nikola is running amazingly  i loooooooove riding this wheel   i am keeping it under 45km/h tho.....for now . 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver

[Jason McNeil]

7 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

@Jason McNeil is this a picture of my board ?

Yep, this his charred remains of your controller  

[meepmeepmayer]

This isn't really a thermal paste issue. Just horribly botched production. The design itself seems fine (assuming the smaller mosfets are ok on their own).

I'd be worried Gotway fix this fuck-up with another fuck-up (e.g. leaving out the thermal pads and shorting the mosfets with conductive thermal paste). Be 110% sure they understand the problem!

[stephen]

7 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

is this a picture of my board ?

So what stress did you put on your wheel if any, have you got any info please as I'm sure we'd like to know thanks in advance 👍

[Marty Backe]

25 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Yep, this his charred remains of your controller  

Isn't it exciting @Lucas Alexander Oliver that your wheel was pivotal in understand the Great Hot-Glue Screw-up of 2019?  Something you can tell your grand kids   

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Isn't it exciting @Lucas Alexander Oliver that your wheel was pivotal in understand the Great Hot-Glue Screw-up of 2019?  Something you can tell your grand kids   

I'm getting the impression that " The Great ________ Screw-Up of 20__! " will be something that we still have in 2030, from all manufacturers

[Marty Backe]

18 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Apologies for the late attendance to the party. Since receiving a 2nd board failure (this case was different, it was powered on from a stand still & didn't respond), including Marty's, within two weeks of shipping out the first batch of Nikolas, I've reached out to Linnea on Thursday to try to come up with an action plan to see what options are available to greatly reduce/eliminate the risk of these MOSFET thermal overload events.

The evidence from both of these failures has marked similarity in outcome (see below), where this glue may be acting as a thermal barrier, not helped by the absence of thermal paste on the underside of the metal heat transfer surface. One option being explored, is to recall the boards. remove this glue, & apply the thermal paste. To date Gotway have shipped 600 units; they say they have not received reports from other regions of this failure—it's likely more will trickle in in time. Putting out an official recall is not something to be taken lightly; in their defense, they're probably looking for a few other reports, before taking this step.

Gotway have a lot of experience with building high power motor vehicles; they had gone through several rough patches, particularly with reliability of earlier generation boards, with the weaker MOSFETS, but at least then they were pretty consistent with applying liberal quantities of thermal paste to this underside. It was baffling to me why they would go back to an inferior TO22x FET package AND now we learn about the lack of thermal paste. From my experience, such oversights are usually not the result of penny-pinching, but execution on the production line, where the factory needs a ruthless eagle-eyed floor manager, to see that every step of assembly is done by the book. 

The silver-lining to all this, is that an early finding in the production cycle is a necessary facet to a small-scale non-ISO production facility, where the manufacturer's financial pain of having to deal with a crisis, means that they will be imbued with a sense that this situation must never occur again. 

For all current Nikola owners, please hang in there, we should have an action plan in the next few days. 

EDIT: To anticipate questions on the 100V Nikolas, they are using the TO247 MOSFET package, the first production of these special edition 1845Wh variants is still underway, there is assurance that in light of this episode, they will getting the thermal paste treatment!



 

I'm a bit dispirited after reading that Gotway doesn't necessarily think this is a problem. It's a shame to own a new 2019 model wheel and feel that you can't ride it everywhere that you'd like.

I don't particularly care about thermal grease because I think that's what the thermal sheet is for. Just don't smear hot glue on my MOSFETs, OK?

The engineers who run these companies continue to strike me as immature engineers. They may have the skills but they don't have the Western mindset for quality.

I remember Jason receiving a large batch of MSuper V3's that he was assured had received the fixed firmware. As the wheels were disassembled by Jason in his warehouse to reflash the control boards regardless (Jason didn't trust them either), something like half of the wheels had not been reflashed by Gotway in China. Gotway punted and sent the wheels to Jason in whatever state they were it. They just didn't care.

So even if Gotway sends new boards to Jason, I would not believe that they were good (no hot glue).

I know Jason will be seeing to it that what we receive is good. I'm not questioning that. It's just a sad state of affairs and I really feel for the expense and worry that Jason will be going through.

The rest of the World? Gotway says screw you 

It's really sad.

[Michael Tucker]

Management of unskilled labor is difficult in industries that are time and cost sensitive. Rushed work that needs to be completed by a deadline at low cost often leads to scary unsafe workmanship in construction (SF Transit Center closure), automotive (gas pedal/ airbag recalls), and even aerospace (Boeing 737-MAX software). Even top notch companies like Apple have their "BendGate" manufacturing moments.  Proper management, training and quality control is far too expensive for this hobby. If you want aerospace grade products, you must pay aerospace grade prices....how about a flawless wheel for $20,000! Remember we pay western retail prices plus tariffs, real "cost/value" of these wheels built and sold in China is a few hundred USD.

Compared to the thousands we pay, we expect a lot, and compared to all the problems manufacturers produce, we might want to look at the bigger picture and lower our trust and jubilation of new products without a track record. I think it would be most helpful for consumers to put more trust in an individual model of wheel, rather than a particular manufacturer. Comparing a KS14b to a KS18L is night and day difference, even though they are both built by the same company.

[Hatchet]

Where were you during GlueGate 2019?

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Hatchet said:

Where were you during GlueGate 2019?

I like the sound of that 

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

10 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Yep, this his charred remains of your controller  

Wow. That’s insane. And scary.

 

10 hours ago, stephen said:

So what stress did you put on your wheel if any, have you got any info please as I'm sure we'd like to know thanks in advance 👍

I only had about 60 miles on it. Mostly chill riding getting to know the wheel.. I had just gotten used to it and was riding through a local park on a gravel path and went up a lil hill maybe 30 or 40 meters long and I got to the top and stopped. Laid the wheel on its side and it beeped and disengaged the motor.  When I picked it back up it wouldn’t re engage no matter what I did.  It was soo weird   I can’t believe it burned up like that. Must’ve been some kind of crazy power surge or something right ? 

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

Wow. That’s insane. And scary.

 

I only had about 60 miles on it. Mostly chill riding getting to know the wheel.. I had just gotten used to it and was riding through a local park on a gravel path and went up a lil hill maybe 30 or 40 meters long and I got to the top and stopped. Laid the wheel on its side and it beeped and disengaged the motor.  When I picked it back up it wouldn’t re engage no matter what I did.  It was soo weird   I can’t believe it burned up like that. Must’ve been some kind of crazy power surge or something right ? 

Re-read this thread and my post. It burned up because there was hot-glue separating the MOSFETs from the heat sink. Had nothing to do with a crazy power surge 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Re-read this thread and my post. It burned up because there was hot-glue separating the MOSFETs from the heat sink. Had nothing to do with a crazy power surge 

I understand that I guess I assumed it had to have something weird for it to burn up when I wasn’t riding.  That was my observation. But yeah  the whole glue thing is ridiculous. 

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

I’m still riding my repaired nikola and it’s riding great. Going up the hills around Seattle with no issues at all.  It feels even better than it did with the first board in it.  I love riding this wheel.       Anyone have any guesses about what if anything will be done for us about our unsatisfactory boards ?? 

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Isn't it exciting @Lucas Alexander Oliver that your wheel was pivotal in understand the Great Hot-Glue Screw-up of 2019?  Something you can tell your grand kids   

I feel so special and..... unlucky lol

[Michael Tucker]

9 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

I’m still riding my repaired nikola and it’s riding great. Going up the hills around Seattle with no issues at all.  It feels even better than it did with the first board in it.  I love riding this wheel.       Anyone have any guesses about what if anything will be done for us about our unsatisfactory boards ?? 

Have you opened-up your replacement board and looked for glue?!!!

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

9 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

Have you opened-up your replacement board and looked for glue?!!!

No I am not going to mess with it. I’m scared to not be able to get it back together perfectly .  I’ll wait and let the professionals take apart my 2000$ wheel.   Lol.   I am riding totally geared up all my protective equipment on and I’m keeping it at 25 and under so if It does fail my hope is that I’ll be able to walk away from it.. but I’m hoping I have better luck with this one and it lasts for me until we have a permanent solution  

Edited June 24, 2019 by Lucas Alexander Oliver

[Dzlchef]

37 minutes ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

No I am not going to mess with it. I’m scared to not be able to get it back together perfectly .  I’ll wait and let the professionals take apart my 2000$ wheel.   Lol.   I am riding totally geared up all my protective equipment on and I’m keeping it at 25 and under so if It does fail my hope is that I’ll be able to walk away from it.. but I’m hoping I have better luck with this one and it lasts for me until we have a permanent solution  

I’m with you on continued riding, just hope that I don’t pay for it!  I will say that the wheel behaved beautifully today in 20+ miles up and down the steep hills, both paved and dirt, under serious power all with perfect grace.  I hit my top speed at 31.6mph trying to catch up to the leaders, so smooth didn’t realize I was going that fast. 

I would normally ride in a skate helmet but worn my full gear due to some trust issues.  Love to get a new control board that’s been built properly.  I really don’t want  to help prove Chinese poor build quality with my current set-up. 😔

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

5 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I’m with you on continued riding, just hope that I don’t pay for it!  I will say that the wheel behaved beautifully today in 20+ miles up and down the steep hills, both paved and dirt, under serious power all with perfect grace.  I hit my top speed at 31.6mph trying to catch up to the leaders, so smooth didn’t realize I was going that fast. 

I would normally ride in a skate helmet but worn my full gear due to some trust issues.  Love to get a new control board that’s been built properly.  I really don’t want  to help prove Chinese poor build quality with my current set-up. 😔

Yes at least I’m not the only one who loves the nikola so much I’m gonna keep on riding it as much as possible. Lol.  It rides so good. Not a hint of over/under power or overheating.   The voltage/current looks normal.  Hovering around 55/60 mostly.  Even up hills it barely hit 90 amps ever.   But like you I don’t want to pay for my willingness to ride so let’s hope our nikolas hold up for us 🤞🏻