Next upgrade option after the Inmotion V8

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Clifmeister said:

Is 60km for a 95kg driver really possible?

I don't think you need a real world test for this to find that the answer is "No" But I feel like KS16 drivers are on the lighter side here, I can't remember a heavier KS16 driver or any range data. 60km if you're @esaj weight? Sure.

Ok, with 95 kg maybe if you go 5 km/h max... (still would not bet on it).

Are you considering the Monster? Because the range is by far the best As it looks, 1300/1600 ACM or ms3  (or 18S 1680) is what you need.

[Clifmeister]

34 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

possible, yes. probable? no. Of course, mileage will depend on riding style, speed, terrain, wind, temperature, moon phase etc.... So if you're not in a hurry on a warm summer day with maybe a little wind in the back and no major inclines and cruise at a steady pace, you might get those 60 km out of it, maybe even a bit more. If you blast around in cold weather, with lots of acceleration and braking, some hills to tackle and a headwind to fight, that range can easily be reduced to half of it. So that's why you didn't (and won't) get the one and definite possible range told. 

Considering the little mileage you get out of your V8, I think it's safe to assume that you won't get a spectacular range out of any wheel without changing your riding style. The larger battery of the KS16s however will be more at ease, thus you will get more effective capacity out of it. My best guess is, that you will get just shy of double range of your V8, at the same riding style and speed.

I know, but still its a good indicator to know that 35 - 60 is normal range. And the advertised 75 km is only working on a thread-mill. Thanks for your estimation.

I can now built a more real world formula:

Inmotion V8

480wh (battery) / 25km (my range) = 19.2 wh/km

KingSong 16S

840wh (battery) / 19.2wh = 44 km (my range)

ACM 1300

1300wh (battery) / 19.2wh = 68 km (my range)

 

just trying to to validate my expectations :-)

[eddiemoy]

I thought you were going to buy from speedyfeet.  They don't sell King Song.  

[Clifmeister]

7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't think you need a real world test for this to find that the answer is "No" But I feel like KS16 drivers are on the lighter side here, I can't remember a heavier KS16 driver or any range data. 60km if you're @esaj weight? Sure.

Ok, with 95 kg maybe if you go 5 km/h max... (still would not bet on it).

Are you considering the Monster? Because the range is by far the best As it looks, 1300/1600 ACM or ms3  (or 18S 1680) is what you need.

Yeah, still my main focus is the ACM. But I get steered away from it because all of the QC troubles, which are right or not. In a circle, then again looking at the inside of the ACM everything seems easy to fix, so maybe my brother who is an electrician can help me on that. I don’t have a distributor living near by so I will order from a neighbor country so shipping the thing when broke is kinda crap.

You guys noticing I can’t make up my mind? Whaha... I got some months to decide, the freakin weather right now is not letting me drive my EUC.... damn! I wish I lived in California!!!

[Clifmeister]

4 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I thought you were going to buy from speedyfeet.  They don't sell King Song.  

Yup, if it’s a Gotway yes. If not I probably buy it from http://1radwerkstatt.de/ still have open options ??

[meepmeepmayer]

Take your time. In my opinion, if you don't go on steep mountains, there are NO quality issues with the ACM (or msuper V3 or Monster) at all (maybe long term some axle shims will need to be replaced after 2500km or 5000km or so, that's it).

26 minutes ago, Clifmeister said:

ACM 1300

1300wh (battery) / 19.2wh = 68 km (my range)

This may or may not be too much. I'm getting 75 km max at 80 kg and good conditions (warm, not too fast, rough roads though). Just trying to save you from possible disappointment Although 20 Wh per km is a lot, not sure if you can expect to use more.

Not sure if the results will be better, but here's my idea: instead of looking at the full battery capacity, only consider 80% (100% to 20%) usable and do your computation with these numbers for all wheels and see what you get as range estimates (starting how far 100-20% gets you on the V8). The last 20% go down quite fast on GWs (much faster than the first 20%, which last for three times the distance at speed than the last 20% in a crawl do), the few extra kms should be considered an emergency buffer, not usable. No idea how this is on KS/Inmotion, but probably similar.

So the V8 would have 0.8*480 Wh = 672 Wh, for example, and "officially" gives you whatever range you get from going down to 20% (but not 0%). Use that as an estimation base, and see if the numbers look believable.

--

Too bad the Gotway 1300->1600 price increase is so disproportionally big.

[Meng Yang]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:29 AM, Brian Morris said:

I'm a newish guy to euc, I have a v8, I'm getting a Tesla.  from reading everything I'm pretty sure I'm going to die on it, I just hope the smile sticks on my face at the funeral.  I ride my v8 every day I can, its been perfect wheel so far but I am constantly bouncing off the limiter, that's not safe, I want just a little more.  May I be smart and wear my gear and not slide into something harder than my helmet.  I know Gotway is not the safest, but I don't care, I want more speed... (and ring lights, because damn, leds are cool)

 

Someone remind of this stupidity when I post a pic of my broken arm, leg, etc  and ask me if it was worth it.

And they say "Great Minds Think Alike" ... LOL  ... sounds like people like us have death wish! 

Until my Tesla flies down from China's warehouse, I'm er gonna treasure my last few days on earth.  

Topic aside, my friend had a major spill on his V8 yesterday (& is considering quitting EUC). Turns out that it acted weird the moment it was turned on. Not being aware, he immediately jumped on and accelerated up to 20+ kph when suddenly the pedal dipped the moment he eased off. Double somersault he went! With only a few months on the wheel, he's quite new to EUC. With about a year under my belt, I'm more aware of the occasional glitches my V8 can experience upon initial power-up, so I don't always power-up and go. I've had a few weird moments before, so I tend to push it back and forth a bit with my hand to see if its moving properly. Then I'll start slow to feel if the footrests are at the correct angles and if turning results in the usual degrees of dipping. Only then do I blast off. Poor guy was caught off-guard. In short, even seemingly reliable wheels like the V8 can act weird at times. We need to be careful on any EUC.

[Clifmeister]

Thanks for your input. That’s a good rule of thumb. Based on various reported ranges it seems to roughly predict my personal mileage. Maybe I’m just talking trash...

So taking the 20 % into account and my personal wh/km (19.2)

Projecting this on range

480 * 0.8 / 19.2 = 20 km (which is actually my range with 20% left, so this is valid)

840 * 0.8 / 19.2 = 35 km (expected range)

1300 * 0.8 / 19.2 = 54 km (expected range)

1600 * 0.8 / 19.2 = 66 km (expected range)

Maybe handy for others, would be interested to know what your personal wh/km is for a machine you own...

Projecting it on price

Inmotion V8 480, cost 1099 euro = 54 euro/km

KingSong 16S 840, cost 1599 euro = 45 euro/km

ACM 1300, cost 1495 euro = 27 euro/km

ACM 1600, cost 1888 euro = 28 euro/km

 

Seems the Gotway are most bang for the buck... but still, maybe some of the machines are more efficient with wh...

 

[WARPed1701D]

Just to add complication to your calculations...from 100% to wheel shutdown at empty only 420Wh (87.5%) is actually used by the V8. Makes sense not to drain the battery totally flat when it is balancing you. This figure was determined by doing 4 full logged charges with the Charge Doctor from enforced wheel shutdown due to low power. Cut off at 0.1A.

Your Wh/km is therefore likely higher. I use about 20Wh/mi.

[Clifmeister]

47 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

Just to add complication to your calculations...from 100% to wheel shutdown at empty only 420Wh (87.5%) is actually used by the V8. Makes sense not to drain the battery totally flat when it is balancing you. This figure was determined by doing 4 full logged charges with the Charge Doctor from enforced wheel shutdown due to low power. Cut off at 0.1A.

Your Wh/km is therefore likely higher. I use about 20Wh/mi.

I already took the 20% battery in the calculation. 19.2 wh/km seems correct to me.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Clifmeister said:

I know, but still its a good indicator to know that 35 - 60 is normal range. And the advertised 75 km is only working on a thread-mill. Thanks for your estimation.

I can now built a more real world formula:

Inmotion V8

480wh (battery) / 25km (my range) = 19.2 wh/km

KingSong 16S

840wh (battery) / 19.2wh = 44 km (my range)

ACM 1300

1300wh (battery) / 19.2wh = 68 km (my range)

 

just trying to to validate my expectations :-)

I have lots of experience with these different battery sizes and have concluded that they all (independent on wheel diameter) give the same approximate range given the same battery size. My riding weight is ~80kg and I can be assured of getting a solid 48km, regardless of how hard I ride the wheel, from a 840wh wheel. If I baby it and am willing to go slow near the end, I can get close to 65km. But for planning purposed (group rides, etc.), I assume 48km max. This has held true with my 840 ACM, 840 MSuper, and 840 KS14.

My 1300wh ACM gives me a guaranteed 72km.

My 2400wh Monster gives me a guaranteed 105km

EDIT: I do range tests with every new wheel I get, so the numbers I'm giving are not theoretical. 

[Clifmeister]

37 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I have lots of experience with these different battery sizes and have concluded that they all (independent on wheel diameter) give the same approximate range given the same battery size. My riding weight is ~80kg and I can be assured of getting a solid 48km, regardless of how hard I ride the wheel, from a 840wh wheel. If I baby it and am willing to go slow near the end, I can get close to 65km. But for planning purposed (group rides, etc.), I assume 48km max. This has held true with my 840 ACM, 840 MSuper, and 840 KS14.

My 1300wh ACM gives me a guaranteed 72km.

My 2400wh Monster gives me a guaranteed 105km

EDIT: I do range tests with every new wheel I get, so the numbers I'm giving are not theoretical. 

Cool that validates my results too! Good to hear!

[meepmeepmayer]

In danger of being too pessimistic, the new numbers look more believable.

54km with a 1300Wh ACM is more like it than expecting 68 km at your weight.

Just came home from a ~60 km ride in 10°C temps (and 80 kg) and that needed close to 80% battery (25 km/h average maybe, no slow riding). Maybe sloooooow extra 3-5 km more would have been possible to the wheel forcing me to stop.

Also, @Marty Backe has good warm temperatures, that seems to make a surprisingly big difference.

[mezzanine]

29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In danger of being too pessimistic, the new numbers look more believable.

54km with a 1300Wh ACM is more like it than expecting 68 km at your weight.

Just came home from a ~60 km ride in 10°C temps (and 80 kg) and that needed close to 80% battery (25 km/h average maybe, no slow riding). Maybe sloooooow extra 3-5 km more would have been possible to the wheel forcing me to stop.

Also, @Marty Backe has good warm temperatures, that seems to make a surprisingly big difference.

Yes, the difference made by colder temperatures is a big factor in battery performance that I didn't account for when looking at range when looking at wheels.  I also didn't realize I'd only be able to effectively use 2/3 of the battery before low battery issues make riding further impractical under most circumstances. 

Today is the first day I've ridden in very strong winds and I was really wishing for a more substantial wheel.   

[mezzanine]

6 hours ago, Meng Yang said:

And they say "Great Minds Think Alike" ... LOL  ... sounds like people like us have death wish! 

Until my Tesla flies down from China's warehouse, I'm er gonna treasure my last few days on earth.  

Topic aside, my friend had a major spill on his V8 yesterday (& is considering quitting EUC). Turns out that it acted weird the moment it was turned on. Not being aware, he immediately jumped on and accelerated up to 20+ kph when suddenly the pedal dipped the moment he eased off. Double somersault he went! With only a few months on the wheel, he's quite new to EUC. With about a year under my belt, I'm more aware of the occasional glitches my V8 can experience upon initial power-up, so I don't always power-up and go. I've had a few weird moments before, so I tend to push it back and forth a bit with my hand to see if its moving properly. Then I'll start slow to feel if the footrests are at the correct angles and if turning results in the usual degrees of dipping. Only then do I blast off. Poor guy was caught off-guard. In short, even seemingly reliable wheels like the V8 can act weird at times. We need to be careful on any EUC.

Glad you relayed that report on your friend.  I have noticed some mildly odd stuff when I first turn on my V8, but nothing like what you're describing (yet).  I've become sensitive to any change in my wheel's behaviour.  The two issues that have been most significant have been a wonky gyro going over significant bumps and some weird low battery performance that may just be par for the course.   

Jealous of you guys who have a Tesla incoming.  I would be torn between the 16S and Tesla if I was still in the market.  Even if the primary benefit of greater battery capacity didn't exist, I think I'd be looking at a heavier/bigger wheel for my next upgrade just for the additional stability. 

[WARPed1701D]

3 hours ago, Clifmeister said:

I already took the 20% battery in the calculation. 19.2 wh/km seems correct to me.

I thought you wanted to leave 20% battery as considered by the wheel. I'm saying that when the wheel reports empty (0% renaming in the app) that there is still 18% capacity unused. If you wanted to leave 20% capacity as reported by the wheel (as most wheels, unlike the V8, become unridable below 20% reported capacity) you would need to only allow for only 0.8 * 420Wh = 336Wh for the V8 battery pack for example and the same for other wheels you are now considering.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In danger of being too pessimistic, the new numbers look more believable.

54km with a 1300Wh ACM is more like it than expecting 68 km at your weight.

Just came home from a ~60 km ride in 10°C temps (and 80 kg) and that needed close to 80% battery (25 km/h average maybe, no slow riding). Maybe sloooooow extra 3-5 km more would have been possible to the wheel forcing me to stop.

Also, @Marty Backe has good warm temperatures, that seems to make a surprisingly big difference.

Totally agree. Added weight and colder temperatures will drive those numbers down. And if you're riding into headwinds, expect more limits in range.

This is why I will always opt for the biggest battery that I can get.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

This is why I will always opt for the biggest battery that I can get.

That's really the summary of the thread. You can never have a too big battery

[WARPed1701D]

3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's really the summary of the thread. You can never have a too big battery

Unless you need to carry it.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, WARPed1701D said:

Unless you need to carry it.

@WARPed1701D, I don't think you understand. You're supposed to ride these wheels, not carry them 

[Clifmeister]

38 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's really the summary of the thread. You can never have a too big battery

I opt-in for a trailer extension to your wheel so we can carry our 5000wh battery with us ??

38 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

Unless you need to carry it.

I just hope you are not carrying your car...!

[meepmeepmayer]

38 minutes ago, Clifmeister said:

I opt-in for a trailer extension to your wheel so we can carry our 5000wh battery with us ??

Battery backpack starts to become a serious consideration...

Would only need some connection from the battery cables to the outside of the wheel. Then you can plug in the backpack (and you need some voltage balancing method) and go forever.

38 minutes ago, Clifmeister said:

I just hope you are not carrying your car...!

He's a bit right though, the V8 is snugly easy to carry, unlike the ACM which is essentially a big millstone dragging you down.

[Clifmeister]

18 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Battery backpack starts to become a serious consideration...

Would only need some connection from the battery cables to the outside of the wheel. Then you can plug in the backpack (and you need some voltage balancing method) and go forever.

He's a bit right though, the V8 is snugly easy to carry, unlike the ACM which is essentially a big millstone dragging you down.

Different purpose of each wheel, that’s why I probably end up with 10 wheels in my garage....

[Mono]

9 hours ago, Clifmeister said:

Inmotion V8 480, cost 1099 euro = 54 euro/km

I don't quite follow how you compute this number. After 3333km on my V8 I am at about 0.35 EUR/km in purchase amortization, and with all likelihood this will be below 0.15 EUR/km in about a year from now. The tire costs about 0.01 EUR/km, the cost for electricity is with less than a third of a Euro cent negligible in these computations.

[gotmotion2016]

There is one thing cliffmeister that is different here in holland.

We have no californian temperatures here, al ways above 20 ( ? ) degrees.

That is really cold winters, in auttum al lot of rain/cold.

And in open area's ( polder and such ) it could be really windy.

On a nice summer day above 23 degrees a get with not to much speeding 70 kom out the acm 1600wh.

These days with colder temparatures it is a least 10 km less, so 60 km if i'm lucky.

I expect when the winter is there i do even another 10 km less on  full charge.

Then my weight is 20 kg less, so that makes  difference too.

But the rain and the cold is something an inmotion and gotway can have.

If you are  motivated and like riding the wheel you can ride al year trough.

But you need warm lined shoes and jacket for the winter days.

After a half our it's getting very cold, especially because the cold riding wind.

Good luch with whatever you choose.